To DB, or not to DB, that is the question.

[Psych77]

I am sorry to hear that everything is so crazy and senseless right now.

I agree that some of what he said sounds VERY encouraging. Particularly the fact that he does not want you to tell the kids he is moving out "so he can think." He seems to be realizing that, while there is no iron clad guarantee that being with you is the "right" decision, there is no such guarantee that leaving you is best, either. It sounds like he is unsure as to what is the best move, and is anxious that his decision will be the "wrong" one and will make him unhappy. Also very telling was his lamenting the wall between the two of you, and the expression of a desire to bring it down. If it were me saying those words, I know it would be because my heart was telling me to stay with you, but my head anxious to find an absolute certainty of the right answer.

I read what you say about him, and because I relate so strongly, I just want to grab him and slap some sense into him before he loses the chance to have someone who obviously values him so much that she is still trying to give it a chance after all this. He seems (as I have been in recent past) SO oblivious! But, of course, he is not me, and even if my intuitions about his motives are accurate, I should know from my own experience that you can't make someone else pull their cephalus out of their rectum (medical terms get past the auto censor!). He has to do that himself.

Offering to meet him in his LL (offering a hug) when he was being open and honest to you was, IMO, the best thing you could have done. He needs to know that love is there when HE is willing to be there. The best you can do is to be the person who loves him, but not the person who will take ANYTHING from him. You have to love yourself enough to tell him "no" when he is crossing lines - disregarding your feelings, speaking disrespectfully to you, etc. But, if he is ready to embrace you as a separate person from him, and accept that you will always have differences, you can also show him that you love him, with all the differences he has.

Waking up to the fact that arguments and conflicts do not mean you have the wrong person, and that the very BEST marriage will never be a PERFECT marriage - that is up to him.

(I'd slap it into him for you, if I could )

[Endeavour]

E - I just read through your entire situation - I have been chipping away at it today. It is quite a crazy train. I am seeing some parallels to lc4's situation. I am seeing some parallels to mine as well.

My W has brought up the D word several times over about the last 9 years. The last two times have been with a serious note. It does erode trust in feelings and it does leave you walking on eggshells. I heard the "I don't feel emotionally connected" and the "We're just not compatible" and "Maybe I married the wrong person" statements.

I would say I see some positives in your situation. At least your H is willing to pick up and read some of those books. I think that's a big, big positive right now. That tells me that he legitimately sees some hope for the M. My perception is your H is very confused. He's also willing to talk, and when he does initiate the convo, it doesn't sound like it's always negative.

I would agree with lc4's comment above that it may be wise to set a time to talk rather than having you just drop everything depending on what mood your H is in. Maybe you would get a little more consistency?

What do you feel needs to change in your M? What does your H feel should change in the M?

Thanks for stopping by, jbnati. I've managed to get through all your threads today. I had to take a break...for a quesadilla. I'll be stopping by to comment soon.

Yes, I definitely see the similarities in our sitches, as well as lc4's.

Anyway, I agree, it is somewhat encouraging that my H is willing to read relationship books but then again, he also keeps insisting that the books won't help. Although, then wants to discuss the books again... I'm trying to be patient.

Yesterday, even after giving me the "it's hopeless" speech again, he flip flopped back to wanting to know what made me unhappy in the marriage and my issues with him. Then more apologizing, tears and validating from him...and affection. Yet, I'm not sure if all that is just pity or guilt...or something else.

I'm pretty much expecting him to reinforce that he's "done" again next weekend.

As for your questions:

What do you feel needs to change in your M?

* conflict resolution skills - I don't think either of us fought fairly. There was a lot of disrespect on both of our parts
* intimate conversation - my H isn't honest and open about his feelings unless we're going through this drama. The only time he can talk openly with me about what bothers him is when he's "done".
* he needs to have my back (loyalty) - my H doesn't like to rock the family boat so to speak - his family was often disrespectful to me (and sometimes to him). Long sorted story. While we were in MC, he was told by our therapist that he needed to be firmer with boundaries regarding his family. It took him years to speak up and he wasn't always consistent.
* more quality time alone
* his excessive drinking - my H often came home from drinking after his hockey games and would spew venom about not getting enough sex or how I had no sex drive. Then tell me to go find Prince Charming. Yeah, that's going to arouse my desire. Or he would drink too much after dinner numerous times a week. Our D16 has noticed and expressed concern to me.
* his forgetfulness - Something simple like putting gas in my car. I get severe migraines and the smell of gas triggers them. He'll go away on business and leave me with no gas. I do everything around the house and only ask him to take out the garbage and mow the lawn - he forgets.


What does your H feel should change in the M?

* conflict resolution - same as my points
* sex - he wants more
* physical touch - more
* quality time - but only if it leads to more sex. He's angry about our dates that didn't result in sex
* he's felt ignored at times when I've been talking to friends on the phone or on the computer
* more shared interests
* more sex - did I mention that? This is his main complaint.
* my procrastination - admittedly this is something I did because I got tired of his "forgetting". I know I reacted poorly and out of anger.

There's probably more on his list but that's what I've garnered out of the points he's shared during our last few R talks...

[Endeavour]

If it were me saying those words, I know it would be because my heart was telling me to stay with you, but my head anxious to find an absolute certainty of the right answer.

I read what you say about him, and because I relate so strongly, I just want to grab him and slap some sense into him before he loses the chance to have someone who obviously values him so much that she is still trying to give it a chance after all this. He seems (as I have been in recent past) SO oblivious! But, of course, he is not me, and even if my intuitions about his motives are accurate, I should know from my own experience that you can't make someone else pull their cephalus out of their rectum (medical terms get past the auto censor!). He has to do that himself.

Offering to meet him in his LL (offering a hug) when he was being open and honest to you was, IMO, the best thing you could have done. He needs to know that love is there when HE is willing to be there. The best you can do is to be the person who loves him, but not the person who will take ANYTHING from him. You have to love yourself enough to tell him "no" when he is crossing lines - disregarding your feelings, speaking disrespectfully to you, etc. But, if he is ready to embrace you as a separate person from him, and accept that you will always have differences, you can also show him that you love him, with all the differences he has.

Waking up to the fact that arguments and conflicts do not mean you have the wrong person, and that the very BEST marriage will never be a PERFECT marriage - that is up to him.

(I'd slap it into him for you, if I could )

Psych77, my instincts tell me you really do get my H because everything you say just resonates so precisely.

H often seems to be looking for the perfect solution to our issues and this is probably what is triggering these emotional "flip flops". Yes, it does seem like if it's not easy or a "sure thing" with an iron clad guarantee, he's afraid to commit to a decision.

Yet, something in him is stopping him from running, even though I think he desperately wants to... Again, he needs those absolutes. This all makes so much more sense when you explain it.

And I definitely think he's looking to me for these answers, which is might be why he is so focused on my feelings when I was the one contemplating divorce. He wants to know how I made my decision. I did tell him the other night that he needs to look for those answers within himself. I want him to find his own inner strength and I don't want to feel like I'm convincing him.

Yes, I want him to know that I do think our relationship has hope, but I want him to be strong and sure about "his" choice. I want to see some strength and some leadership from him. I need an emotionally strong man.

I agree with you about setting boundaries, and that we both need to accept our differences and see ourselves as individuals. Ironically, this is something that also came up the other night. I told H I often felt like he wanted a female clone of himself and that expecting your partner to be exactly like you is unrealistic.

I too think offering the hug was a good move in that moment. I did consider it might be pursuing but since his LL came up and he said that my lack of physical touch at times hurt him deeply, that it felt right to ask in that moment. It was definitely well received.

Anyway, again thanks so much for your thoughts. I would also love if you could give him a slap for me. I kid. Sort of.

[jbnati]

Yesterday, even after giving me the "it's hopeless" speech again, he flip flopped back to wanting to know what made me unhappy in the marriage and my issues with him. Then more apologizing, tears and validating from him...and affection. Yet, I'm not sure if all that is just pity or guilt...or something else.

I'm pretty much expecting him to reinforce that he's "done" again next weekend.

I am under the impression your H is a very confused man. He may be reading the books in the hope you all can save the M. He may be gleaning hope from reading the books. However, my DB coach told me something one time and it stuck with me. I'll apply it here. He may be looking at you when he says it's hopeless but he's really convincing himself. Who knows?

I think you have a good couple of lists. I'll say the intimate conversation can be difficult for a guy. However, I also noticed sex is on his list. I willing to bet the two items on each list go hand in hand. His excess alcohol consumption is concerning - it sounds like he needs help. Overall, it sounds like you all have been able to recognize things that need to change on both sides. Because you're the one here, you may have to be the one that tips the first domino, so to speak.

[Endeavour]

Yes, I think you're right, jbnati. I'm the one that is here but...

I'd really just like him to be a strong dependable man with some emotional strength already. Sigh.

I have read Sex Starved Marriage (as has he) and so I get the connection between my need for intimate conversation and his need for more sex. I don't feel safe and connected so I don't want lots of sex....he doesn't feel connected because he doesn't get his sexual needs met...and so on and so on.

I could seduce him I suppose (that wouldn't be hard) but I'm not sure it would be the right thing to do. It seems too much like pursuing. Honestly, I have no real desire to pursue and I'm the last person you will find begging or crying or pleading. Made all those mistakes 10 years ago and that will never happen again.

I've spoken to him about his drinking and he denies he has a problem. He claims he drank when I met him so I knew this....Yeah, but he was also 19 back then. Although, I have noticed that he hasn't had more than one drink with dinner lately, and on Sunday night he made a point of telling me he was only having one beer. I told him he didn't need my permission and that he was going to do what he was going to do.

I've said my piece about his drinking and I'm not bringing it up again because I'm not making it my problem. He wants to choose that for his life, then so be it.

[jbnati]

I'd really just like him to be a strong dependable man with some emotional strength already. Sigh.

This is a tough one. The good news is you know where you are and you know where you want to be. You just don't have a road map. I am taking it this is really big for you. He may need some help in getting there. My suggestion would be to give him some concrete examples of what you would like him to do in certain situations. e.g. In situation X, it would be helpful if Y. Of course, he is going to have to be open to change.

I could seduce him I suppose (that wouldn't be hard) but I'm not sure it would be the right thing to do.

Probably not the best approach IMO. You probably won't be into it, so it'll probably take a lot of it out of it for him.

I've said my piece about his drinking and I'm not bringing it up again because I'm not making it my problem. He wants to choose that for his life, then so be it.

This sounds like the right approach to me. You can't control what he does or doesn't do.

[Redo]

E, Just read through your sitch. So sorry you are on this crazy boat. Yea i too can draw some parallels on my sitch, when reading yours.

If you guys are at point where you can suggest books to each other: Suggest him to read this "Hold on to your NUTS". One thing i realized ASAP after my W filed was that my emotional immaturity played a big role. Years of being told that i was doing mistakes made it even more worse and killed my self-esteem. Reading the NUTs book really helps you realize your role as a MAN in the relationship. Reading through your sitch it seems like your H really did not know what he wanted or how to get it in mature manner, right from the beginning. So him reading this book should help him. I know it did for me.

The way you explained your sitch was in a calm mature manner. That tells me your are quite level headed
I dunno, one reason you stayed with him this long even when signs were visible...were you trying to save him from himself? or it could have been co-dependency.

Either way...Him going away and coming back this many times is crazy. He also knows that you will take him back. Your 180's could be a tightening in that area.

Also, his positive attitude regarding reading the books or at-least agreeing to the MC even though he does not believe in them says that too likes to have an R with you but has no clue how. This was exactly my situation. I kept telling my W that i needed help to figure out how to be happy with her. In your case it could be that your H thinks that if he runs away that the problems will go away. If this the case, he's gonna come down to earth real fast.

Hang in there.

[Endeavour]

This is a tough one. The good news is you know where you are and you know where you want to be. You just don't have a road map. I am taking it this is really big for you. He may need some help in getting there. My suggestion would be to give him some concrete examples of what you would like him to do in certain situations. e.g. In situation X, it would be helpful if Y. Of course, he is going to have to be open to change.

Brutal traffic in and out of town today gave me too much time to think...

I wonder if it's going to take me being "done" for him to ever really step up and be the man I need...

So many of my issues with him are based on his lack of emotionally maturity, and his flakiness, and his need to always threaten to leave.

It's like he needs that threat hanging over my head to feel safe. To feel in control.

Even when it wasn't said, it seemed like it was always there hanging in the air between us.

Every fight seemed like life and death for our relationship.

Every problem or disagreement was because we were "incompatible".

Our lives were always based on his time table because he was indecisive about everything - including having another child.

I was SO tempted to just text him today and tell him that I can't do this anymore...

Because today I'm just feeling worn out.

If I keep guiding him through our problems, looking for all the solutions, then I'm being the strong one, and once again, he's waffling and vacillating and crying about how he doesn't want to hurt me and the kids.

I'm not perfect. I know that. I have stuff I need to work on. I wasn't the perfect wife. I know he's been hurt too.


It's like the foundation was never there because as we were trying to build it, he kept tearing it down.

Why does this have to be so complicated?

[Endeavour]

myk, thank you for your thoughts and for the book recommendation. I'm going to order it today. I think I've ordered every book mentioned on this site.

And myk, I'm not always so level-headed but I think I have made progress in that area over the years. For instance, I held a lot of anger towards my parents as they were physically and emotionally abusive but I have forgiven them. Truly. We are close today.

And yes, I have wondered if my 180 or LRT is to ask him to leave. I did that during the first bombing round in our marriage (I'm not going to count the ones while we were dating), but now we have two kids and they're older. So they will notice.

I don't want them to feel abandoned because I don't want them go through what I am going through...

Our D16 is depressed and is recovering from an eating disorder, that occurred after her beloved Grandmother died (they were extremely close). I'm paralyzed by what this will do to her.

Also, I have wondered if I'm co-dependent but then I think that if it wasn't for the kids, I would have left by now.

[jbnati]

E - Hang in there. I can see how you would be very emotionally exhausted. It sounds your H has a decent picture of where he is and where he wants to be, but doesn't have a clue how to get there from here. At least he's willing to try or at least put on a charade of being willing to try.

The incompatible argument also sounds like such a cop-out to me. It can get very wearing on you.