Feeling alone and frustrated with a 180.

[Psych77]

Do you feel like you have more clarity about what your goals are? What to you, seems like the first sign that things are changing?

Wow. One of the problems is that I do have trouble figuring out what goals are. And you are right, this is something that deserves some thought. Honestly, when things were going well between us, I didn't always have a good idea of what "should" be happening. Good things just happened. And I just enjoyed them, without really knowing what the things were that were making this a "good" time for us. I guess right now, if I had to try to pretend as though I were planning a good relationship time, I wouldn't really know where to start.

As for first signs, that is, actually a little easier. Like I said, I can see when things are good, I just wouldn't know (yet) how to plan them that way. W isn't as terse or limited in her responses to me lately. Sometimes when I come home and give her a kiss on the cheek (keep the door open, you know), she actually presses her cheek against mine. But more than anything else, it is the fact that she sometimes just chats - it makes things much more comfortable between us.

And, of course, the occasional sex is certainly helpful.

It's been really something lately - I don't know how many people could understand what I am going to say, but since I have been GALing (and really only very small efforts for that) I have become more aware of how things feel for me - I think I taste food more, I feel it more when I am tired, I am aware when my kids talk to me. I guess it is a good thing, but it is a huge change, and I am not sure exactly how I feel about the change.

Add to that the fact that there is a sort of "trade-off." Since this change has happened, I have been less careful of my eating habits (my belt feels a lot tighter thann it used to) I haven't been getting in to work as early, haven't been getting up early to work out before work, have not been pushing myself as hard. And my Karate has kind of stunk, lately. I get how pushing yourself hard can be unhealthy, but there is an extent to which it has practical value - you get things done, you have more discipline, you become more capable.

Maybe I feel insecure with this change because I don't really know how to "balance" with it. It changes the conditions that I have worked around, that I relied on in making my plans.

Well, I guess I didn't start DBing because I wanted things to stay the same. And I probably just forgot that ALL change is uncomfortable at first.

A couple of nights ago, W rolled over in bed and told me that while she appreciates what I have been doing, she knows that things are still a little uncomfortable between us, and that this could take a while. The fact that she shows such hope in our relationship, and the fact that she showed such concern for the difficulties I would have while our marriage was recovering, was a HUGE thing for me. I stayed casual, and told her that I understood. I said that things couldn't change overnight, and I just figured that I would make the changes I knew I needed to make and then just wait...for us to become more comfortable together, for things to get better.

I guess maybe this means that D was never really on her mind (this time - there have been plenty of other times in our M that it was a real specter). But the DB has so far proven to be invaluable. As are all of you here. I don't know how I would have made as much progress as I have without your support.

And I know that I still have a long way to go. If for no other reason than the fact that I know I need to change a lot to prevent this from happening again. Become not so much of a "divorceable" husband. Be a person in my own right, with something special to contribute to our relationship.

Well, here I am talking as though the problem is solved. I am looking ahead of myself. W is speaking casually to me, and talking about our future, which are both huge steps forward. Still, we very seldom kiss on the lips (the times we have sex are about it), she doesn't tell me she loves me, either directly or indirectly, and we are far from open in our communication.

I think this is part of what made problems come back so many times before. When W became more willing to relax around me, even though I said I needed to keep up changes, I would always, down deep, take it as though things were "all better."

But I am starting to get a vague picture of what things will look like when they are better.

This is a lot more complex than I am used to processing. Quantum physics is nothing compared to trying to understand your own life while you are in the middle of it.

[Endeavour]

Psych77, first I wanted to thank you again for what you shared on my thread. It helped me immensely.

Anyway, I see a lot of positives in your interactions with your wife based on what you've written. I agree that it takes a lot of time and patience to work through these issues in a marriage, and it's certainly not easy to stay the course without getting frustrated, but you're obviously making a lot of progress.

And your wife is definitely noticing your positive changes.

If it works, keep at it.

[Psych77]

Endeavor -

I am glad that what I said helped. I wish I could relate it to your H so he could understand that these fears are just "things" that happen, and don't necessarily mean that you aren't with the right person.

What you said put a great smile on my face. Thank you for the encouragement.

[aeolianchaos]

And you are right, this is something that deserves some thought. Honestly, when things were going well between us, I didn't always have a good idea of what "should" be happening.

I don't mean to imply that your entire life experience needs to be so consciously goal oriented, but certainly right now you are making choices with certain goals in mind, right?

I don't know that there is a 'should' that exists here. I think when we get caught up in 'should' we can really throw ourselves into a tailspin when things that naturally can occur are happening and we feel like they shouldn't. Or, we believe that something 'should' happen but it isn't. Chances are it all makes sense on a very elegant level, but we aren't able to see the design behind it right now.

A big plus to this whole DBing thing is that we learn so much about relationships and the nature of things inside of them. In doing so, I know I have found that many of my assumptions and beliefs turned out to be very poorly based on fact. I suspect it is the same for most of us - our ignorance and expectations can become a hindrance to finding deeper happiness.

There are times when we all gt out of synch with our partners. This is completely normal and healthy, yet many times I think we stress about it to the nth degree because we think it means there is something wrong with our R.

I think the fact that your W is communicating with you the way she is, is a very positive sign. Sometimes warmth and goodwill are what a relationship needs for the moment.

I get how pushing yourself hard can be unhealthy, but there is an extent to which it has practical value - you get things done, you have more discipline, you become more capable.

This is a great observation. There is a lot of benefit to doing your best at what you choose to do. It is okay to have some 'off' times, though. What are you doing to balance your 'active' states with something that might 'recharge' your batteries?

And I know that I still have a long way to go. If for no other reason than the fact that I know I need to change a lot to prevent this from happening again. Become not so much of a "divorceable" husband. Be a person in my own right, with something special to contribute to our relationship.

You have a lifetime to go in pursuing being the kind of person that you really want to be. It sounds like you do contribute something special to your relationship already. As you evolve and grow, your contribution will change and things will hopefully evolve as well.

When W became more willing to relax around me, even though I said I needed to keep up changes, I would always, down deep, take it as though things were "all better."

It sounds like you felt like those changes weren't as strongly forged from a desire to change your own life but to keep your M together. One of the reasons people tend to be most able to change in crisis is that they develop a very strong internal motivation to improve their own lives. When we pursue change to influence another person, it usually does tend to be somewhat short-lived and the foundation tends to have some significant cracks in it.

The kind of change you are making - do you like yourself more when you are 'living it'? Even though it may be uncomfortable or different, do you find yourself feeling a little bit prouder of who you are when you 'become' the kind of change you want to be?

[Psych77]

Hi, Chaos - back from a couple of heavy days at work, no time to type.

Well, my focus on what "should" be was poorly worded. What I meant to say was that during the good times I seldom am aware of, concretely, what it is that is happening that is so good. So later, during bad times, I often am at a loss as to what, concretely, I should be seeking out to make a change for the better.

As for the changes I am making...well, I am realizing that I am sometimes making them for myself, but other times making them to revive the M. What I mean is that when things are tense between me and W, I make changes in myself, not hoping to bring W around, but rather to focus on making myself happy and being a better, more complete person. Problem comes when W does come around - it feels so good to be near her that I sort of automatically snap back into my mode of intensely focusing on her, hoping to see that better relationship every time I see her. And then, of course, everything falls apart, because I am focusing disproportionately on her.

The same thing happened a couple of times this week, since I last wrote. The most recent was Tue. I came home late, having picked up S from his part time job on the way home, so I didn't get in until 9p. She actually came home later, having been shopping, and was a little irritable. Well, we got on each other's nerves, and instead of just walking away and leaving her to cool off, I got upset about it. First mistake. Then I asked her why she was so angry, and she said it was because S and I didn't clean up our mess in the kitchen after eating dinner. So, I got childish and said that most of those things were what S had left on the counter, but backpaddled and said that, nonetheless, I should have followed after him and reminded him that he had a mess to clean up. Then I started to tell her that I had not gotten home until 9p, and was really tired. That was when she cut me off, and said I was making excuses and she didn't want to hear it. Which I was, she was right. But in the moment I felt humiliated, shut down, shut out, rejected...I don't even know how to classify all that I felt. In short, I was angry, and felt like it was urgent for her to know my side of the story (that, my friends, is an Asperger thing...we frequently get an idea stuck in our heads, and it starts to feel like a need more than a want). I will say I did one thing right. I didn't pursue the matter any further. Once she told me I was making excuses (by the way, in the moment I was absolutely sure I wasn't making excuses, and didn't realize that I actually had been until the next morning), I said "Okay," and dropped it. And so did she. Which was good, because in the past this would have been one of those things I would have held onto and made it into a knock-down drag-out. I was furious, and as we went to bed, I pulled away from her - I was so angry I couldn't stand to be touched. I didn't relax and soften up for about 20 minutes, when I wrapped my arm around hers. I was going to apologize the next night (I am up and out of the house long before W wakes up) and own up to making excuses, but I was unsure whether it would make sense to bring it back up. I also was not sure whether I was making it, in my mind, to be a much bigger issue than it was, and if it might be better dropped. I didn't bring it back up, but I don't know if I was avoiding something we needed to talk about, or exercising appropriate discretion. I still don't know.

So, there, because things had been a little bit better, I let my guard down, just started enjoying the more relaxed air between us, and my attention went off the 180s I was doing. My behavior became less deliberate, more automatic, and I fell back into the same pattern. And my urgent need for her to hear me - well, part of it comes from Asperger's, but some of it comes from the fact that I allowed myself to become, again, dependent on her appraisal of me, instead of having enough of a sense of myself to accept that I had done something inconsiderate, it was my own fault, I could change it, and that was that.

I feel so childish looking at how I acted as I type this up!

Sometimes I think that DBing is teaching me not so much how to succeed in a relationship as how to live. You know, how to have balance, to love without making a person the center of my life, to exercise an appropriate amount of focus on myself, etc.

So, back to the drawing board - look at my part of the "script" of our conflicts, and rewrite my "lines" to be different from what I have done in the past.

I guess I should just take this as a learning experience. After all, it is not reasonable that I should expect to decide to make a change and have it consistently changed ever after. I have to expect some falling back into old habit. Just try again.

[Endeavour]

Psych77, it still amazes me when I read your posts because you remind me so much of my H.

The situation you described concerning the mess left in the kitchen is so eerily familiar. My H often leaves kitchen messes or other chores left undone. And he's the master of the excuse. His excuses are usually based on forgetfulness or inconsideration so even when he has a good reason for not cleaning up after himself, to me it often sounds like just noise. Just more excuses and more selfishness. And I react poorly to that...


I understand being tired, but if this happens often perhaps your wife saw it as you simply making another "excuse". That said, I think you handled it fairly well. You admitted you were making an excuse and then you reached out to her later.

As for bringing it up again, if it's a 180 for you, then maybe that is the right move. Maybe if she understands that these conversations make you feel defensive, then perhaps she needs to learn how to speak to you in a more respectful manner.

If you feel attacked when your wife brings something to your attention, is your reaction based on your fears or insecurities? Or is she harsh with her words and overly critical? Because in hindsight, I can see why my H has gotten defensive over the smallest issues as I've lost my temper with him many times. Yes, sometimes he makes poor excuses but that doesn't excuse me losing my cool.

Hopefully, that offers at least some insight and isn't me simply projecting.

[Psych77]

Endeavour, you are exactly right - at this point, even if I had a valid excuse for something, to W it would just be another excuse.

And yes, I do feel attacked when W lets me know I did something I shouldn't have/didn't do something I should. And it is mostly based on my fears/insecurities. My past is a very odd story - I spent most of my childhood being rejected by others (outside my family), so I came to view having someone care about me as a very rare and precious thing. That in itself is OK, even an advantage. Unfortunately, it has also made me hypersensitive when there is any conflict in a relationship I have - I become panicked, afraid it is going to fall apart at any moment. So, as you can imagine, GALing has been a great challenge for me. But it has been something that brought up immediate results - I haven't been hanging on W all the time, frightened by every negative word she says (well, the times when I have been consistent with it). Add to that the fact that my parents went by the dictum, "Never fight in front of the children," so I thought that a successful marriage had no conflicts (even though my parents told me they had fights, more is learned by seeing than by hearing), and became either very clingy or very defensive every time we argued (I have known this is a problem for a long time, I just keep discovering more ways in which it has been influencing my behavior). I suspect there is a similar dynamic at work with your H; every time something negative happens, any time there is conflict or hard feelings between the two of you, he fears that it rings the doom of the relationship. Difference is that he is not scared of leaving the relationship...maybe just scared of "missing" whatever would make him happiest? Maybe that's why he won't commit either way - because when you fight he fears that he is giving up his chance for happiness by staying with you, but then later he wonders if the fight was just a normal part of marriage, and leaving you would be giving up the "right choice" for him? And (just going totally out on a limb, here) what about his dignity? Is he afraid to respond to you when you are angry with him, for fear he will be losing his independence, just doing what he is told? That's just a (very) wild hunch.

W is a little harsh, but I don't think that has too much to do with it, most of the time. She has always had a rougher way about her than me, even when we were dating. She grew up on the east coast, where sarcasm is the native language. I grew up in the midwest, where the cardinal rule is, "Be nice at all costs." Maybe neither one is completely healthy. I know my upbringing has made it very difficult to assert myself until things are brought to an extreme (which may also contribute to my history of angry outbursts). So, there are times when W is overly harsh in her response to things, and that hurts me. But I think mostly I need to learn to deal with her way of communicating - and mostly, I have. It really is the criticism itself, and the anger itself, that I get nervous about. And, to be healthy, I really have to learn to deal with that.

[aeolianchaos]

Sometimes I think that DBing is teaching me not so much how to succeed in a relationship as how to live. You know, how to have balance, to love without making a person the center of my life, to exercise an appropriate amount of focus on myself, etc.

I think this is a really good observation.

DBing is, ultimately, an individual pursuit. Often inspired by a crisis and hope for success in a partnership, but ultimately its about you.

The same holds true for relationships in a lot of ways - we are in them with someone else but we remain separate individuals despite all the romantic notions of 'becoming one' and things like that. We are always going to be distinct individuals and if we don't take care of that truth, it is easy to get into trouble in the relationship.

In many ways, relationships can be a 'hiding place' where we avoid confronting who we are being at a given moment and look for the relationship to compensate for what we don't like. In other ways, the relationship can show us exactly who we really are and force us to consider if we really want to keep being that person.

[Endeavour]

Add to that the fact that my parents went by the dictum, "Never fight in front of the children," so I thought that a successful marriage had no conflicts (even though my parents told me they had fights, more is learned by seeing than by hearing), and became either very clingy or very defensive every time we argued (I have known this is a problem for a long time, I just keep discovering more ways in which it has been influencing my behavior). I suspect there is a similar dynamic at work with your H; every time something negative happens, any time there is conflict or hard feelings between the two of you, he fears that it rings the doom of the relationship. Difference is that he is not scared of leaving the relationship...maybe just scared of "missing" whatever would make him happiest? Maybe that's why he won't commit either way - because when you fight he fears that he is giving up his chance for happiness by staying with you, but then later he wonders if the fight was just a normal part of marriage, and leaving you would be giving up the "right choice" for him?

You've hit the nail on the head again. My H did not witness any fighting between his parents either so when his mother left his father when H was 20, he was dumbfounded and quite distraught. He has expressed that he grew up believing that a good marriage did not involve any conflict or fighting.

During his parent's D, H broke up with me again. Although, I can't remember if this was the first break-up. Anyway, I do remember that H said we needed to break up during that time period because we fought, and therefore we were wrong for each other. He also said he felt marriage was obviously a hopeless endeavour, given his parents couldn't even get theirs to work when they clearly got along.

If you speak to him today about this topic, H will admit that he had poor role models for conflict resolution.

However, the difference between you and my H, is that you seem to be internalize your understanding of your childhood influences and have attempted to modify your reactions. My H on the other hand, cannot seem to truly allow these realizations about marriage and conflict to become part of his reality.

I have to wonder if it's because my H seems to think true change is not possible. He often makes statements such as, "people can't change" or you have to "accept people for who they are". Ironically, he seems to expect change from others yet makes excuses about how he should be accepted for who he is...

And (just going totally out on a limb, here) what about his dignity? Is he afraid to respond to you when you are angry with him, for fear he will be losing his independence, just doing what he is told? That's just a (very) wild hunch.

Again, yes. I have noticed that H does not like to be told what to do. Actually, I wouldn't even use the word "told" because even if I ask him to do something for me, and even when it's a reasonable request such as helping out around the house, he seems to react by procrastinating or "forgetting". If I try to talk to him about my frustration over this issue calmly, he gets defensive. If I approach him when I'm angry, he gets even more defensive and explodes. His anger often seems excessive and over the top given the situation. He labels me the "angry one" but his anger over little things is nothing compared to mine. Although, I admit that is my perception.

Over the years, I believe his "angry outburts" have caused me to withdraw because I don't feel safe so I think this is one of the root causes of our disconnection. H seemed more comfortable with our dynamic when I cared more and he cared less. When we got to the point where neither was fighting for the R, things really deteriorated. I knew it was happening but was at a loss at what to do because I felt I had tried everything. This is also during the time I stopped wanted to ML with H. I realize now how much this hurt him. Although, before all he expressed was more anger.

I think the fear of "fighting leading to D" is where I'm very much like you because I also seem to fear for the relationship during conflict, even if the conflict is over something mundane. I'm assuming that given my history of physical and emotional abuse at the hands of my parents, that I'm also reacting to a fear of abandonment. Then again, given that my H threatens to leave constantly, that's probably a realistic fear at this point.

W is a little harsh, but I don't think that has too much to do with it, most of the time. She has always had a rougher way about her than me, even when we were dating. She grew up on the east coast, where sarcasm is the native language. I grew up in the midwest, where the cardinal rule is, "Be nice at all costs." Maybe neither one is completely healthy. I know my upbringing has made it very difficult to assert myself until things are brought to an extreme (which may also contribute to my history of angry outbursts). So, there are times when W is overly harsh in her response to things, and that hurts me. But I think mostly I need to learn to deal with her way of communicating - and mostly, I have. It really is the criticism itself, and the anger itself, that I get nervous about. And, to be healthy, I really have to learn to deal with that.

Again, very familiar. I am fine with "normal" expressions of anger, as long as that anger doesn't carry with it an unspoken threat of abandonment. I also saw anger expressed growing up but since my parents are still together, I guess I don't necessarily see anger as a bad emotion, except when it leads to physical abuse. Concerning the physical abuse - I think because my father and I have discussed that time period in great detail and I know my F is remorseful, I have come to a place of forgiveness. My mother does not admit to the abuse but I have forgiven her as well. Has your W dealt with her abuse or confronted her parents?

Oh, and I am also (at times) very sarcastic.

Anyway, it seems I have veered off and spoken of my sitch a little too much. I find it fascinating that you seem to relate so clearly to my H and have a very similar upbringing, and I can relate more to your wife and also seem to share a similar upbringing (physical and emotional abuse specifically).

Although the difference is that you're here and obviously willing to become a better person, as am I. I truly hope both of us can learn to overcome the unhealthy dynamics we see at play in our marriages. I learn a great deal by reading your posts but I can't help but wish my H was as insightful and in touch with himself as you are. I think that puts you at a great advantage and I am very interested in seeing where your sitch takes you. I think you have created a wonderful opportunity to turn things around.

[Psych77]

Wow, Endeavour, the more I read you, the more I understand my wife. It really kind of [censored] for me to understand how she felt, because it makes me look like a real heel. I think for a long time I was so afraid of feeling guilty, I wouldn't allow myself to appreciate her feelings.

...the difference between you and my H, is that you seem to be internalize your understanding of your childhood influences and have attempted to modify your reactions. My H on the other hand, cannot seem to truly allow these realizations about marriage and conflict to become part of his reality.

Don't make too much out of that difference. I spent years using my own experiences as an excuse NOT to change. The explanations of why I didn't became reasons why I couldn't. Mostly, I just wanted W to stop being angry at me, which I attempted by making the argument that "I can't help it." (I really did this without thinking about it, and still do, if I'm not watching myself) And, for a long time, she fell for it. As is always the case, however, the fact that my little ploys worked didn't do either of us any favors. My point is, it took years for me to finally get the idea that I needed to change, despite the very good reasons why I was the way I was. It took me a long time to realize I could change. How did I make that realization? Well, it was rooted in my belief in God. As our marriage was on the rocks for the umpteenth time, I realized that for the marriage to work, I had to change. I believed God meant our marriage to be lifelong, which meant change was required of me, and since God would not require something impossible, it must be possible for me to change. From what I recall you saying about your husband, that wouldn't be how he would come to this conclusion. But he can reach it. He looks a lot like I did.

Over the years, I believe his "angry outburts" have caused me to withdraw because I don't feel safe

Are you sure we're not married?

Sadly, my W has said the same thing about me, and I'm afraid it is one of the things that is keeping us apart right now, even when I am applying changes. I think it is going to take a long time of consistent change before W feels safe with me, and until then that will be a wall between us. But in the past, this has only made it worse. The more W withdrew from me, the more I felt the relationship was threatened (rightly, I guess). I responded by being more hypervigilant about our conflicts, panicking even more when we had little fights, which let to fits of temper which led...to where we are right now.

Although the difference is that you're here and obviously willing to become a better person, as am I. I truly hope both of us can learn to overcome the unhealthy dynamics we see at play in our marriages. I learn a great deal by reading your posts but I can't help but wish my H was as insightful and in touch with himself as you are.

Honestly, every time I read what you say about your H's behavior, I see myself in an alternate timeline, one where I haven't realized that I need to make changes. It is like watching a movie, and a part of me wants to scream out, "Stop, you idiot! You can still change. There is still time!" Of course, I can't change his behavior any more than I can change the behavior of the leading man on the screen. I just have to focus on changing my own. I really hope he gets a clue - for his sake and for yours.