I am so lost... someone PLEASE help me!!! 5

[25yearsmlc]

What non DB advice were you following?


I'm confused. What exactly did you do that was different?

On the first point I was responding immediately after our talk, obiously that was premature, as the day played out much better than I expected. Clearly it achived a better result than I had anticipated immediatly following our conversation. So basically Having a Relationship talk did help.

Only when you pulled back and stopped pushing. WHen you didn't issue ultimatums or condemn...


On the second point
I had been going dim, avoiding relationship talk. Obviously that was good to give her time to sort things out, but now she was glad we had talked and felt better about things and agreed to being more open communication and more time together.


more time together AS A FAMILY b/c she said it's important the kids see "both of you happy"...did she say "happy TOGETHER AS A COUPLE"??

I don't want to rain on your parade but you are, again, getting ahead of yourself when you discuss

Dating...as if it's a given. Don't push anymore. Let things brew, let things warm...

and we'll see. When you ask for "dating advice" I have to say DON'T DATE NOW...she's so not ready.

She hasn't had time to trust your changes. She has said nothing about wanting to date you, that I saw. Sorry if I missed that.

I am going to slowly introduce more family activities together, and when I see positive momentum and signs of interest from my W, I will start dating her again.

See above note. Learn to have patience AND boundaries.

My thinking is an informal family time with the kids will create positive memories and open her heart. I am also going to keep working on my GAL.


GOOD^^^.

My goal is to win her over again just like I did when we were dating. I know that is a long term process

^^^And a long term goal. What are your short term measurable goals?

and now I have to be cautious to do whats working and abandon what doesnt. Only carefull DBing at this point will help me keep "My foot in the door"

Johnnie

So now, back off.

And expect some cold shoulders from her as she'll withdraw.

She'll run, if you push her. So no more ultimatums unless you're really ready for either outcome.

[25yearsmlc]

ps

when you say things like "Should I grant forgiveness" to her, I slap my forehead.

You still don't get it.

You are not forgiving her for HER...
Nor is she asking for it. And Kaffe, (I think it was you who said this, sorry if I'm off)

But I disagree with the EA is the same as PA for a man...or I don't understand the comment...always possible.

EA's are bad for the m, no doubt.

But to women, they are more likely a RESULT of a bad m, than the cause of it.

I am NOT JUSTIFYING but am saying that for me,

a w's EA is a direct result of a woman not getting her needs met in the m, whereas

SOMETIMES

a PA for a man, (or woman) is simply a selfish act and nothing was wrong with his m....

But Johnnie, You are forgiving (ahem...someday I hope)

so YOU can let go of this painful issue in YOUR life that you keep harping on.

Don't confuse forgiveness with saying "It's fine"...they are not the same.


NOR is this something you ever have to tell HER,

(which will turn her OFF if you say it anytime soon...she feels it was justified, that you ;pushed her into the arms of the OM, so...back off)

Letting go of this is something you'll have to do

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO RECONCILE

AND

she will have to believe you won't hold this over her head forever or throw it in her face,

(which I greatly fear you will do when you get angry again...AND

no doubt it's one of her fears and
a huge test for you ---to prove your changes are real AND permanent...& won't disappear if she comes back to the m)

I get the impression that unless you hear her say "Please forgive me for the emotional attachment I developed with a man b/c you failed to meet my needs for so long"

you won't be able to move forward...

and can you see how UNlikely that event might be?

Read up on forgiveness in general. There are some great posts around here on this site on that topic.

Good luck

[♪CS♪]

OK Johnnie.

Just be careful with the expectations.

I fear what put her in a good mood may be for a different reason than you are thinking.

Good luck.

[aeolianchaos]

But Johnnie, You are forgiving (ahem...someday I hope)

so YOU can let go of this painful issue in YOUR life that you
keep harping on.

Don't confuse forgiveness with saying "It's fine"...they are not the same.

This is wisdom.

What do you want defining you, Johnnie? Your choices or hers?

[~ kd ~]

I do agree with you on EA and PA, 25...

and I also believe that BOTH are bad for the M and both do show signs of issues in the M...

It's kinda a MARS / VENUS... flow... thingy...

and in the end, it's likely moot... because... well... it just doesn't help the sitch...

[Johnnieno1]

Thx 25

In my heart I HAVE forgiven her.  I understand the reason for her A.  After talking to her it became very clear to me why it happened.  I don't know if this makes sense but I felt like I went from victim to co-conspirator.  I definayely see my culpability.  I think it is very normal for someone who is very sad and lonely and feeling like their needs are unmet to search for something to fill that void.  I don't like it, but I understand it.  I think it is very natural to feel attractions to other people.  That's part of being alive, but I also think that you have an obligation to your spouse happy or not to remain faithful, and if you can't do that end the marriage first.  Vows are vows, they are promises, not suggestions.

To be honest she should have told me how she was feeling though.  She admitted to me that she expected me to know  when she said "how could you not know?  Very simply, you didn't tell me, that how.  Or I just couldn't understand the message, or I didn't clarify her meaning.  When she said "I'm unhappy". I should have asked "about what?  Instead of assuming she was talking about her job.  She also could have been more specific. or mentioned it in a face to face discussion instead of as a side note in an email after a tough day of screaming kids. I'm not blaming, I'm just saying we both need to work on our communication.  I know this is one key to our solution.  It is one thing we both (her more than me) have an issue with is media addiction, her texting on her blackberry and me, Facebook and reading on my iPad, or watching TV.  In short, we agreed to make time for each other to talk, face to face, honestly and openly, even if it is just superficial and mundane.  It is quality time together, just enjoy it.

RANTING...
When will women figure out that men have no idea what's going on in their heads.  We have no clue.  Even when you tell us in what you think are clear thoughts, it's still a puzzle that needs deciphering, and we don't have the key.  A lot of time I have trouble finding the real message buried in a long conversation.  I will say this, and forgive me men for speaking on behalf of everyone, just tell us what you want as directly as possible, it's how our brains work.  It's what we understand.  We just want you to be happy.  

Anyways...  Now I have to be really careful not to push full steam ahead.  It will be difficult for me to hold my enthusiasm back and not overdo it.  I am a very assertive person when I know what I want,  and I want her.

So, I will happily take any advice on how to share with her my "revelation" about her A and also on how I turn that into a "I forgive you" without sounding judgmental or magnanimous.  I do have to forgive her.  I have to say it to her face and i have to hear myself say it, to let it go and move forward, for me.  I want her to know that I genuinely forgive her, and that I understand how my actions combined with our lack of communication and quality time brought on this result.  

Also, I want to let her know that I don't want her EA to continue, as it is unclear to me the status of that.  Until I know her EA is over, we will not be able move forward successfully.  

Also...  How can I help her see the benefit of counseling.  She refuses to go.  Should I just give that time to show my changes are real and let her come to that realization on her own?  I know what therapy has done for me... I want her to feel good about herself too...

Thank you everyone

Prayers and thoughts with you and your family today ninelives...

Johnnie

[aeolianchaos]

have to forgive her. I have to say it to her face and i have to hear myself say it, to let it go and move forward, for me. I want her to know that I genuinely forgive her.

Do you? Right away?

You have to say it?

One thing I'm getting beaten over the head with is that actions speak louder than words. Might apply here, especially right now. Perhaps when your W is interested in discussing the affair it would be good to be able to say "W I forgive you for that" but right now you might be perceived (as you noted) as judgmental or even pressuring.

Also, I want to let her know that I don't want her EA to continue, as it is unclear to me the status of that. Until I know her EA is over, we will not be able move forward successfully.

I think you're gonna have to keep moving forward successfully on your own.

She knows you don't want the EA to continue. Trust me - she knows that.

I understand how my actions combined with our lack of communication and quality time brought on this result.

So your actions made her go against her vows?

I'm not disagreeing with you, and I think its solid of you to be able to own up to your role in the state of your relationship. To the extent that your R probably wasn't in hot shape when the A began, yeah.. you can own 100% of your 50%. But in terms of why she had an A.. thats all on her for making that choice. But YOU DON'T NEED TO TELL HER THAT - ESPECIALLY NOT RIGHT NOW!!!!!!

Also... How can I help her see the benefit of counseling. She refuses to go. Should I just give that time to show my changes are real and let her come to that realization on her own? I know what therapy has done for me... I want her to feel good about herself too...

If you drag her kicking and screaming, she probably won't reap the benefits you are reaping. I think what you said actually is your answer - show her that you are a happier and more self-efficacious person. Show her that you like the new you better than the old one. Show her that you are unstuck on stuff that maybe you've been stuck on for decades.

She might get curious.. she might not. I resisted seeing a therapist for years and now I'm strongly considering going back to school to become one.

[25yearsmlc]

I would NOT say it to her anytime soon.


If she asks then you can say it. If she doesn't ask, she's not looking to hear that from you, imo.

IF & when she says she's sorry for it,

then AND ONLY THEN--you can say

"I forgive you but I know I own a role in how it happened and for that, I am sorry and hope you'll forgive me...now let's move on, "from this day forward"...

otherwise your progress sounds good. I don't think I ever said "Oh h, I forgive you" in some formal way.

I did say at one point, "Don't worry that I'll throw this in your face forever b/c I won't" and that was after he said he'd made a huge mistake.

The time he said, in tears, with true insight and remorse, how much damage he had done to our children/family

I simply hugged him and said "well, we're HERE now, we all survived"

b/c I felt that saying anything about forgiving, at that moment, would've been hurtful or the wrong thing to say.

But that's my situation and may not apply to yours.

i do know that you saying you forgive her, is likely NOT to get the result you want.

You admit you are an aggressive man. is that another word for selfish or impatient?

Can it sometimes be those?

Be wary of old traits resurfacing so fast...

Again, what are those 180s???


How will marriage to you, specifically,

be different today than before?

That's the "marketing challenge" you have, as I see it.

And behaviorally, the ones above.

[♪CS♪]

IF & when she says she's sorry for it

^^^ This.

You're running light speed here. Slow down.

At this point you're not even sure the status of her A.

I want you think more about what forgiveness really means to you.

And the reason for it.

I saw some "buts" in your post.

[Johnnieno1]

This whole thing is a process to work through... I'm on my journey...