I will play devil's advocate against my self here. Does it show integrity? Where is my integrity on this issue? Is it integrity to say things I know will make her feel guilty? What if I know they are truths (the stuff about my situation, at least..) Does it change things? Perhaps her guilt is healthy? Maybe it isn't. Maybe I should just shut up and not say stuff that makes her feel worse?
Remember this ^^^^^^^
Print it out and staple it to your forehead...
The so called "high road" does not make us righteous...
The high road is about integrity and honour and compassion...
i found myself awake and wrestling with a lot of questions and thoughts. A lot of it trying to deal w/ this issue of "am I really willing to completely terminate any relationship with my W once this divorce is finalized?" I have a tough time with this -- did I say it to get her to rethink things, of course I did. It isn't that I don't mean it - I do - but that means I believe that maybe she would slow it down a bit if she needs to consider that she is going to really lose me being in her life at all.
I don't want this to happen. I really really don't want this to happen (like many of us on here..). She has been my one constant companion for a decade. We have 'grown up' together and it's always been my hope that we would create our life together. We never really got a chance to do so much of what we wanted to in our life. I don't want to admit to myself that she doesn't want that. She doesn't want it at all, according to her words and actions.
She may well really not love me. She might not want much to do with me at all beyond soothing her own guilt. She may find my completely undesirable. It is hard for me to fully accept that.. I wish I could, but I love her and I want to believe that there is an explanation that suits me better. But she says "I don't love you" - why shouldn't I take that at face value?
Yet she talks about how she has so much doubt and worry. How she has called her IC up in tears crying. But to what end? Guilt over what she is 'doing' to me? Or because she misses me and feels terrible? Too terrible to come back? Confused? I really can't know and I can't help her with this.
And when I say things like 'i don't know why that would be hard for you.. this is what you want.' What am I really doing? Am I prompting her to question what she 'wants' more than what she is 'afraid of'? Or am I just pushing a button because I'm hurting?
I am a coward.
I guess that's a little extreme.. but I feel like there is also truth in it. Not that its all that I am, but there are so many ways that I realize that I basically sell myself out to my fears and doubts everyday. Its why I have done a pretty lame job of GAL.. it's a big part of why my W stopped 'loving' me.. It's a big part of why I hide behind my 'smarts.'
I fear being incompetent at a job. I fear not being wanted to do a job. I fear that I will get a job and be stuck with nowhere to go.
I fear not being loved for who I am - fear that my W won't love me (ironic.. ). I fear really sincerely losing my relationship with my W.. permanently. I fear being alone.. permanently. I fear feeling like I'm purposeless. I fear not being worthy of being loved. I fear that if I am okay, my W will feel even better about leaving.
I fear living in poverty. I fear being invisible - but I fear being seen.
I don't like it - letting my fears keep me from doing what I want to do.
I don't want to 'make' my W love me. That is me selling out my own integrity because I'm afraid she won't love me unless I do something to 'convince' her. Don't I want to be loved authentically? Yet, I need to do much of those things for myself.
I fear that maybe even getting M was something I did because it was something safe - She pursued me, I knew she loved me, I knew that she wanted to marry me. I never had to ask. I never needed to take that chance.
I don't want to let my fear keep me from pursuing the things that I want.
Country Song asked me a poignant question yesterday: Do you attach yourself to these ideas?
I have been pondering that.. and my fear. And I think that I do identify with being a 'smart' person. And even though it feels like a safe place, I don't know if its always in my best interests to be a 'smart' person. I dont think there is anything wrong with being 'smart' but I suspect that it is getting in the way of me being using the rest of my 'intelligence.'
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
I will play devil's advocate against my self here. Does it show integrity? Where is my integrity on this issue? Is it integrity to say things I know will make her feel guilty? What if I know they are truths (the stuff about my situation, at least..) Does it change things? Perhaps her guilt is healthy? Maybe it isn't. Maybe I should just shut up and not say stuff that makes her feel worse?
If I'm supposedly 'dbing' in many of the things I am doing or trying to do (GAL, 180s, going dark.. etc..) then is it an act of integrity to discuss the R as much as I have? What if the W brings it up first?
What if DBing isn't an act of integrity? What if it is a means to an end? What is the end? What are the specific means?
Is the end that we sell ourselves out to have our spouse? Doesn't that just make us emotionally fused and at high risk for recidivism?
To be clear, I don't think that this is the case, I think at its best DBing is actually about learning to be self-responsible and learning to soothe our own wounds without pressuring the spouse to do so. It is about learning to grow up in ways that perhaps our marriages conveniently allowed us to avoid until one person decides to jump ship. These good things give the WAS much more 'space' to start to look at things differently. It is no guarantee, though..
But what were you supposed to do? These are your observations and how you feel. You were being honest and forthright, rather than ... I don't know about DBing and integrity.
But I'd appreciate this in my partner. I may not want to hear it, but if I were in any way interested in the truth of their experience, my own personal growth, that kind of real feedback, and being on my "path" then yes, what I think you did was good - helpful.
Otherwise, where is she going to find the answers?
Once you truly know your fears, then you should also know your motivator...
Once you know your motivator, you know what to set your goals for...
Then, with all the strength and courage you have within you... use your motivator to achieve your goals...
Not necessarily easy, but it's a way out of the emotional hole you find yourself in...
So what does this look like?
I'm afraid of being alone.
My motivation then is to ... surround myself with family and friends? Or ... my motivation is to do things so I'm not alone? (How do you phrase this part of the question?)
Aeoli - you sounds like me with the job and financial indepdence stuff. I think it's the necessary path. Do something - perhaps - temporary - rather than finding the right perfect career for you right now ...
It sounds like some of what WAW is harping on. Though, I don't know if it's really about that. For her.
But it'll be good for you.
I'm telling you this, but in a lot of your posts it sounds like you blame her for the position you're in with work - or that you are in some way very tied to her around this stuff. I could be wrong, but I think that is something that can ... help.
And from my vantage point, I look at your age, the fact that you have no kids, how in tune and in touch and smart you are, and I think - here's a guy that will have no problem finding a deep connection and love.
But those fears - yeah. No good.
But I don't have those fears for you - so I see something - good. With WAW or someone else.
A lot of it trying to deal w/ this issue of "am I really willing to completely terminate any relationship with my W once this divorce is finalized?"
Sorry, but a useless question. All of this. Doesn't exist NOW. Focus on what IS.
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did I say it to get her to rethink things, of course I did.
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I don't want this to happen. I really really don't want this to happen (like manyMOST/ALLof us on here..). She has been my one constant companion for a decade. We have 'grown up' together and it's always been my hope that we would create our life together. We never really got a chance to do so much of what we wanted to in our life. I don't want to admit to myself that she doesn't want that. She doesn't want it at all, according to her words and actions.
I KNOW how tough this is. REALLY. But add a word to all of this. NOW. She doesn't want this NOW.
So, when you look at what you want (now), and what she wants (now), you two are not on the same page. That just what is. Acceptance of this IS a BIG step.
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She may well really not love me. She might not want much to do with me at all beyond soothing her own guilt. She may find my completely undesirable.
Mind reading. NOT helping.
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It is hard for me to fully accept that
Accept what? Your mind reading, or what is?
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But she says "I don't love you" - why shouldn't I take that at face value?
Accept that she said it. Nothing more.
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Yet she talks about how she has so much doubt and worry. How she has called her IC up in tears crying. But to what end? Guilt over what she is 'doing' to me? Or because she misses me and feels terrible? Too terrible to come back? Confused?I really can't know and I can't help her with this.
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And when I say things like 'i don't know why that would be hard for you.. this is what you want.' What am I really doing? Am I prompting her to question what she 'wants' more than what she is 'afraid of'? Or am I just pushing a button because I'm hurting?
I am guessing you know my answer based on my earlier post. I think you know the answer to this too.
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I don't like it - letting my fears keep me from doing what I want to do.
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i don't know why that would be hard for you.. this is what you want.
Hmmm....
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I don't want to 'make' my W love me.
It's a lot more than not "want." You can't.
But you can get back to loving yourself. It is a lot more attractive than someone who doesn't.
Then, who knows?
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Country Song asked me a poignant question yesterday: Do you attach yourself to these ideas?
He sounds cool.
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I have been pondering that.. and my fear. And I think that I do identify with being a 'smart' person. And even though it feels like a safe place, I don't know if its always in my best interests to be a 'smart' person. I dont think there is anything wrong with being 'smart' but I suspect that it is getting in the way of me being using the rest of my 'intelligence.'
I also asked about defending those ideas.
I think it goes hand and hand.
If you do not attach yourself to them, what is the point to defend them?
I am NOT saying you do not state them, but after that, if someone disagrees?
OK.
They're just ideas....
Peace man.
I do truly like your style.
I think you will find peace.
One way or another.
BITS
Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
LG, you're getting it. You are likely right on the money with your experience of Chaos.
Chaos, you are SO like me, it's kinda scary.
CS, that's the thing. He IS attached to those ideas.
~~~~~~~
Chaos, you're in a great spot to move forward. Take what you wrote and understand that you can formulate your future with all of that.
My experience of what you posted is, you have completely laid out your essence. You are worthy of stating and achieving great goals. Money, relationships, all of it...
And I'll submit you not only won't get what you fear, you will actually be very successful at getting much more of what you want.
The two are always connected, very tightly. We just have to surrender to it.
As a Man, the number one thing you need to do to be a successful man is be true to yourself. YOU do not answer to anyone outside of yourself or God if you believe. You as a man need to be indifferent towards anything other than your self-worth. No person, including the Hottest female on the planet, controls your life. You are you period. The question is how do you become the best you possible? Well, one you can't base it off women. Women are hardwired to test. EVERYTHING is a test. If you are not true to yourself, then there is NO WAY you will be able to answer your woman's tests.
You need to constantly evaluate your happiness and figure out what YOU want and you need to lead yourself to be the happy you.
If you continually worry and change to suit someone other than yourself, then you forget yourself.
As far as fear, you need to look at that in the eye everyday and become someone different than what you were the day before.
No woman on this planet will want to stay with a man unless he leads his life with a purpose and strength that shows he is worth being with.
Aeo, you have done a lot of work, but instead of focusing so much on the outcome. Detach from it. KNOW you will be okay without her because of your journey. IF she wants to be with you, she will do everything possible to be and if she doesn't others will.
You are owning up to your part, but she has to make a choice too. Hang in there bud. Stay strong.
