You might ask her what she thinks and ideal marriage looks like, what it contains, how the people treat each other, etc.?
Ask her what she thinks your idea of an ideal marriage looks like?
Ask her to verbally visualize what and ideal marriage between the two of you would look like.
Ask her what skills, experiences she might need before she can perform/be like she should be in her ideal marriage and what you might need.
Perhaps share with her some of the ideas of Schnarch (self-soothing, differentiation, no one is wrong), some of Chapman (5 LL) and that GAL (self improvement) helps improve marriages and see if any of that might help her get to where she wants to go.
Your insights are good, except the issue is not sex. Sex is a symptom, not the problem in my opinion.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Aeolian Yeah it is quite perplexing I couldn't wrap my head around it myself. Here's what it boils down too.
1. She is very interested in women, so much that it has overtaken her interest in men. She says she's not completely lesbian, but feels that she can't focus on guys until she meets her need for girls. (or satiates her curiosity).
2. She says she is very much in love, but finds it hard to get turned on by me. (thus last nights episode).
3. She wants permission to freely and openly pursue OW's for no strings attached sex.
4. She herself is not sure how far she is willing to go with this. By her actions and words sometimes I can tell she is testing herself, to see how far she can really go.
5. Her own willingness and guilt to want an open marriage makes her mistrustful of me. So she feels threatened by me having OW's, while at the same time wanting OW's for herself. Further perpetuating a cycle of mistrust.
6. She demands that if something were to happen I keep it to myself. At the same time she wants my support and acceptance of her OW's. For the record I have NO OW's.
7. This creates further conflict since she thinks it's just a matter of time until I get an OW. Afterall as she says: I have permission. Which makes her feel more undesired, and makes her back away more. Then she realizes what she has done, and convinces herself that surely I am closer to an OW now. The loop keeps feeding itself.
8. She could just ask for my honesty, but doesn't because it would risk finding out that maybe I do(which I don't!!!!!). Or thinks I'd just outright lie to her. (insecurities are very self feeding).
9. Which brings me to what I think is going on. She wants to test the waters, but is afraid of the consequences. I guess I believe that she is setting it up to be able to close the marriage without bringing too much baggage. If she decides to take that route. Afterall it would be very awkward if she ends up not doing anything, and I did a lot. It would be harder to wipe the slate clean.
10. So this is where we are going in circles never really touching the true issues, waiting for something to change in order to bring resolution to this. She has my support and permission to seek OW, yet knows that once she does something pandora's box will be opened.
11. Will she open the box? We dont know. Will either or both of us like what's inside I don't think either of us knows either. Do we want to stay together, yes we do. Is she risking that in order to find herself, yes she is. Ive gotten to the point where I accept that she needs to do this. Whatever the outcome may be. I just hope we can both live with it.
If I sound like a dick, I apologize. This is truly meant to help you.
You ever see the family in a store. The toddler is throwing a fit, and the parents just try to sooth the child. "Sorry. Ok. I will by you the doll. What ever it takes"
That kid will always be a brat.
Why?
Because it works. Very simple.
You have said in so many words. "W. Do whatever you want. I will always be there for you regardless."
I think that you have summarized the issues well. I think that you know your wife.
She is questioning her sexual orientation. Some women at an earlier age experiment to find out what they are comfortable with and then determine they want to get married, others marry then divorce to experiment. She sounds like she wants it both ways: being married to a man she loves and yet wants to experiment to better understand her own sexual orientation.
That is, as you say, probably really frightening to her. She probably is very afraid of finding out that she would rather have sex with another woman, as she doesn't want to loose you.
She probably also despirately wants to find out more about her own sexual orientation and yet feels that if she is free to have sex with OW, that you should be free to have sex with others as well. She understands the concept of "fairness" although not the concept of commitment. The problem is that she is knows you are really good to her and she probably loves you and doesn't want to loose you. She also probably knows that if you start having sex with other women that she can't control your heart and it could destroy your marriage. She understands the Pandora's box aspect to her quest for experimentation.
I really think that even though you wife is opposed to it, that she could really benefit from the help of a good sex therapist as could your marriage.
Absent the help of a sex therapist, is there someone who you might be able to get your wife to talk to that could provide her with some mentoring. Someone who may have done experimentation and yet knows the risks and can act as a sounding board for your wife. If your wife were religious, I would suggest a clergy-person, preferably a woman. (A Catholic nun who has sexually experimented, but who has later made a commitment to her faith might be ideal.) Absent that is there a base chaplin you could talk to and maybe ask if he could put you in touch with a woman who has been or is bisexual, but has her head on fairly straight about the importance of marriage and might be someone who your wife could talk to about what is frightening her. Again, just going to a sex therapist would be a better route, but this might be more acceptable to your wife.
I am really not happy with myself for what I am about to write. Please try to get others to talk you out of it. I see it as a final nuclear-type option, but here goes....
If all this fails and it were me and I wanted to end the drama, I might try a two-step process. First I would take us to a nude beach so she got to see and be seen, I might even start talking to some women on the beach and get them to sit and talk to you and your wife (I would make damn sure that nothing sexual happened either on the beach or afterwards with them). Afterwards, I would ask my wife if she really still wanted to risk your marriage though sexual experimentation as she has indicated in the past. Then I would reluctantly find out where the nearest legal brothel was or FKK club that provides services to a husband and wife was located and make an appointment with the madame. I would talk to the manager of the facility ahead of time, tell her your situation and that you want to pay for a woman who will explore your wife's desire for bisexual experimentation, that you want to be present, and that while you probably don't want any services, you want that as an option and will pay for it even if the woman does nothing with you. Ask the manager, if she has a woman who can help you save your marriage. After I did that, I would probably go cry myself a river and do some crazy GAL stuff to try to forget what was about to happen.
Then I would put on a smiley face and tell my wife the arrangements I had made and tell her we were both going to do this with no backing out, but that there was a condition and the condition was going to a sex theapist to talk about it afterwards, because you will need help to deal with the aftermath.
I realy think that it could open Pandora's box and could destroy the marriage, but I also sence that you see your relationship in a deep cycle and that the two of you need to do something to get out of it. I think that getting out of your wife's problem and rebuilding your marriage will require the help of a "neutral" person, a sex therapist or counselor of some form. Your own personal ethics and your commitments to your wife and the military would also weigh heavily upon my decision. I could see getting could feet, I would try to make sure that if my wife really wanted to do this that I would not participate except with my wife.
While it would be better for her to seek help now, she doesn't sound like that is something she wants. Again, I would try finding someone who could talk to my wife first. I would try something that might scare her away from her sexual exploration, such as your strip club experience or a nude beach, (or nude couples massage at a legitimate spa). Then an only then would I help her open Pandora's box, but I would try to get her to understand that you will both need help dealing with the aftermath of such an event and ask her to commit to going to seek such help with you, as you will need it and you will need her by your side as you get help. Tell her that it is not about fixing her or changing any of her ideas, it will be about helping you deal with your demons.
I am going on a vacation for the next month and will be away from my computer. So I want to wish you and your wife luck.
I have really enjoyed sharing experiences and thoughts with you and hope that things go well for you. Continue your GAL, seek and listen to others, but follow your heart.
One the smartest men I know once explained to me that the ultimate in ethics was the Cub Scout motto, to try to "...do your best." If you really do your best and things go wrong then at least you will know that you could have not done anything else that might have saved you from what happened.
I do so wish you and your wife luck.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Starsky, Country Strong Agree 100% I have actually gotten better at ignoring most of her outbursts. In fact I think that was the turning point in this odyssey, this has caused them to be rarer and less intense. At the height of the WAWness she was having 2 to 3 a day. Now it happens 2 to 3 times a month. I myself have my relapses too and rush in too early sometimes.
The uglier things get the more I try to tell myself to detach.
YAH It makes me sad to know one of my main mentors will be gone for a month. Nonetheless I hope it's a good vacation.
As for your suggestions, all have already being discussed in one form or another. She has two main issues 1. She is too self conscious to be watched even if by me.(she is also afraid of my reaction to see her actively get shared) 2. She doesn't think that at this point she is ready to see me get shared. (she's not sure she can handle actually seeing me with another woman).
Bottomline this is her journey and not mine, and she's expressed that multiple times. As said before it's her way of doing damage control. Even the strip club experience which I at first thought was good, was not so much as she harbors some resentment that I got to play with the opposite sex.
If anything were to happen together it would be after she feels secure with her sexuality as bi, and feels comfortable knowing that we can both have partners outside the marriage together and/or separately without any issues. I think she doesn't want me involved in case she realizes she doesn't want women. As I said before it would be too messy and hard to start a clean slate if she has to wonder if I liked the threesomes too much to be able to close the marriage.
At one point a few months ago she said she was worried about experimenting because she was afraid we could never go back to closed if we decided that's what we wanted. She felt once I got the taste for open I'd never want to go back.
A lot of her rules make sense when put into this context.
1. She is very interested in women, so much that it has overtaken her interest in men. She says she's not completely lesbian, but feels that she can't focus on guys until she meets her need for girls. (or satiates her curiosity).
Hmm. Tough one. My W has always claimed bi-sexuality but I have always been a little skeptical because it was her freshman year of college when she experiment seriously with it.
People do get ideas in their heads and those ideas can become very captivating. The idea that she can't 'focus' on guys until she fills her need for 'girls' is a little strange to me. Surely she is capable of functioning on more than one track at once? If she wants to be able to freely pursue OW's she is going to need to be able to do that..
Quote:
4. She herself is not sure how far she is willing to go with this. By her actions and words sometimes I can tell she is testing herself, to see how far she can really go.
So she thinks she might want something but isn't really sure if she actually wants it? Does she know that she wants it?
Quote:
Will she open the box? We dont know. Will either or both of us like what's inside I don't think either of us knows either. Do we want to stay together, yes we do. Is she risking that in order to find herself, yes she is.
So she thinks in pursuing this course of action she will find herself? Within it? From the experience? From making the decision to pursue that path?
She may find herself not finding herself through any of this - perhaps there is something in pursuing things this way that actually serves to prevent her from finding herself? Maybe she doesn't want to go through the pain of seeing herself more as she really is?
I like this phrase: "This moment is the perfect teacher." How she reacts to her own fears of you doing something, how she feels about herself, how she thinks that she should give you permission to do something you really aren't looking to do.. all of this provides a real window into how she responds to stuff and into who she is being and perhaps who she would like to become.
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
Yeah I get confused too. One day she'll be totally excited, the next not so. I know she is dealing with a lot of conflicting feelings. My W had always claimed bi too but it wasn't an issue until our m started hitting the rocks.
I've tried to wrestle with the issue of why women now after all these years. I've come up with a couple of theories none necessarily more true than the others.
1. This is her version of an EA/PA. Like many WAW's there's a certain thrill in the chase. If I give her time it may fizzle out, or maybe never even come to fruition.
2. This is an integral part of who she is, and we work out a way in which this makes both our sex lives together and apart better.
3. This is more of a bicurious thing, which may go away once the curiosity is satisfied, or she realizes she is not THAT curious.
4. She discovers she's just gay, this would be the hardest since I think we both realize how much we care for each other.
I don't know it's hard to say. All I know is that it's out of my hands for now. She needs to discover what she wants and then I need to decide if and how I want to be a part of it.
I can see how those theories apply to the situation.
I wonder if your W thinks that having the freedom to be with OW will actually provide her the opportunity to have the sex she wants to have? It seems like unless she forms a deep relationship with one of them (monogamous.. perhaps?) than she may have some sex, but perhaps not the sex she expects she might get. Of course, I shouldn't presume to know the kind of sex she really wants to have.
Do you think its possible that there is some other kind of thing going on here, and that the sex stuff may just be a window into part of that?
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
Aeolian A couple of times she has stressed that all she wants is the freedom to seek women, and stresses that she does not want a relationship. At most an acquaintance with benefits.
I also know her libido gets a boost when lots of women and men are interested online. Even if she doesn't plan to even give them the time of day. On the contrary her libido takes a huge hit if she feels rejected. Which I think explains the last two weeks.
So like you said there is something else going on, more with her self esteem. On multiple occasions she has said that she does not take the compliments of myself or guys seriously since we'll have sex with ANYTHING. So I wonder if her pursuit of girls is more of a vanity thing since girls are supposed to be more picky.
I don't deny that her orientation is bi, but her criteria to "allow" herself to be aroused is quite perplexing.
Just had a talk about differentiation with W. She is still hesitant to receive any outside help whether a book or counselor, and just wants time to "figure it out". She was willing though to talk to me a little about schanarchs work. As I described the framework behind emotional fusion she was literally finishing my sentences as if to say: that's right, I felt that way all along.
Explained we needed to differentiate, but that it didn't mean that we would drift apart. She seemed to have taken it real well. We even laughed and played. I really wanted her to understand that we may not always see eye to eye and that's ok.
We also lightly discussed how she may be having a hard time giving herself to me, because she is afraid of further fusion. She seemed to at least nod in understanding of what I said.
I cut it at that, since these talks often lead to fights and I wanted to finish on a high note.
