Loving, Listening, and Letting Go..

[♪CS♪]

Dude, I'm sorry, but I had a hard time not laughing reading this.

The only reason I say this is I see so much of me in you. This is the EXACT type of stuff I would say.

You "pointed out" a lot.

You "suggested" a lot.

But what you really did was take a very elitist attitude.

Again, I say this because of what I see in myself from this post.

You said "I am right and you are wrong."

One thing to note about your post above.

What did SHE say?

I don't see much of it mentioned in your post.

Did you listen to her?

[ESN]

Think I mighta screwed up again. I am not winning this week. I'm not about to quit, but I feel like I'm making things harder.. or pushing things a certain way. It might be good, it might not. I'm not sure.

W met me at a coffee shop to give me some mail and brought some tofu she had made.. we ended up hanging out for about an hour and a half talking about things... more R talk.

I kept my cool, and I kept myself collected. I kept calm. I didn't push blame. But I did state that things were what they were.

She brought up the idea of me going back to school - I pointed out that that wasn't really an option for me since I need to support myself financially and working part time isn't going to do that. I didn't say "this is all your fault" but I'm sure she can read between the lines and see that in a lot of ways, I'm f'd for the moment because she was the one earning the money, and I'm not in as good of a position. It is funny, because I can tell she feels very cr@ppy about this - I am in a position where I can't do the thing she would like me to do (and I would prefer to do), because she has created a situation where I don't have that as an option at the moment. At the same time, it is the kind of thing that she might feel was a pathway towards regaining whatever respect she feels that she lost for me.

At one point, she said how she feels like she has grown up a lot from this experience. How she made grown up mistakes and is having to make grown up decisions. I asked her what she meant.. she meant having an affair and deciding to get divorced were grown up mistakes/decisions. I probed this a little further.. asking her if she felt like getting a divorce always makes someone a grown up. I asked her if having affairs was a mature thing to do. I asked her if choosing to remain married is also a grown up decision. I asked her if she felt that getting married was a grown up decision.

She talked about how she needed her friends @ the apartment when she packed up and moved her stuff because it was going to be one of the hardest things she's ever had to do in her life, emotionally speaking. I said something to the extent of "Well it's what you want.. why would it be hard? I would think that you wouldn't have a hard time with it." I guess in a sadistic way I'm promoting whatever internal conflict she has going on - pointing out the paradox of saying "I want this" but also saying "having this is so hard for me." . I told her that despite what she says, I can only look at her actions and they send a clear message to me that she wants to be divorced and have me out of her life. She talked about how she doesn't want me out of her life and I again pointed out that inevitably I will be because I do not want to experience that pain.

At one point I told her that she had never actually told me what she wanted in our marriage. She said she wanted a partner - an equal, and that she didn't feel like I was those things. I disputed this on a variety of levels. I pointed out that I am a valuable person and have contributed a lot to our M and that many of the things she felt she was doing well were largely situational. I pointed out that every time I tried to improve my life this past year she would cut my legs out from underneath me by dropping another bomb in my lap. I told her I wonder if she really wanted me to improve or just wanted me to look good to the extent that it reflected well on her. And I also pointed out that in a lot of people's eyes, they wondered about why I married someone who seemed very shallow to them. This wasn't a nice thing to say - I'm sure it hit her right square in her sense of reflected self.. worrying about what people think of her.. I didn't say it meanly, just in the context of questioning the notion of 'equals' - how it might mean something very different depending on how you compare it.

I should have just reflected that one back to her and asked her to expand on it.. she would have inevitably stumbled over her own words.

She said that she left when she did because she felt like she was going to end up at the same point down the road and didn't want to waste our time. I pointed out that there is no way she could have predicted that, anymore than she could have predicted the consequences of her other choices over the past year.

She again brought up her confusion and guilt I told her it seems to me like she is being self-flagellating and perhaps making herself feel better by punishing herself. I suggested that perhaps beyond the point where she learns something and changes it, she might be engaging in a bit of masochism.

I don't know what the heck is wrong with me lately. I mean, I'm not raising my voice, or even trying to control her thoughts. I'm being very clear about what is my viewpoint and what is hers. But I feel like I'm slding back in some way.. I'm not even entirely sure where or how, but I feel like I am. Maybe I just need to go more dark.. I feel like the conversations aren't bad, they are thoughtful and respectful, but am I pushing her? am I encouraging her to leave? Maybe she really is willing to have me out of her life if thats what it takes to be D. I don't like to believe that, but I guess I need to accept that as very possible truth. Discomfort.

Wow. I think this is phenomenal and shows your integrity.

And this is where I get confused about DBing - b/c if you were to go all dark here and not talk and let her come to you, etc. you might get more of the same - someone who is really not looking straight at what the issues are and I think you are presenting them to her logically and clearly rather than leaving things vague and blurry where - possibly - there is more sense of (albeit vague) hope.

You are being VERY brave. You are being confrontational, but not in a bad way.

I don't sense she is strong enough to take on what you are saying, though. If she is, then I think you will have your wife back in the way you want. Something real. Someone who isn't just thinking of herself. And if she is not. Do you want her back? I mean - you don't have to answer that, and I'm sorry to put it that way, but ...

I want my BF but I want him to show some intergrity and some self-reflection. I think he does, but he is wayward/lost ... and I'm not confronting him right now the way you are - I'm leaving that to our new MC b/c I just think he takes it better from someone other than me - he has lost respect for me and I seem to have lost credibility so he wouldn't want to hear this from me. He'd react badly.

I think what you're doing is again, very brave, and not wishy-washy. I think she'll respect you for this. You are fearless right now - facing the "truth" of the situation and not letting her slide it this way and that.

[aeolianchaos]

You could be the best psychologist in the world and she still wouldn't listen.

You just nailed me here, GB. I do this.. I need to learn how to shut my smart mouth. I am good with the theory, but the practice of just listening and asking good questions is something I need to work at. I guess because I have worked so hard for myself to understand this whole thing, I feel like I have a lot of insight to offer her, but I really shouldn't do it in that way. I suppose I am doing a lot of mindreading and I should know better since that was something I had to work at in therapy over the winter.

She did state, however, that she felt terribly guilty and awful and worries about me all the time. So I wasn't mindreading that part, so much as offering a framework for explaining some of her behavior over the past year. At the very least I should be expecting there will be a proximity bias.

They are left sitting by themselves wondering and finally logically reasoning if all the pain hardship and stress they have created is worth it. Then they can look at you and hopefully see your changes and see that there might be a chance. Hopefully the DBing and GAL push her over.

I guess there is a part of me that has little faith she will come to that realization. My life is not in a great place - I am unemployed, letting go of my career goals, and honestly just not the best looking person on the block. I made the mistake of letting my W become one of the only things I had going for me..

I'm not just sitting with that, though. I am trying to get some kind of job (for the short term) and am trying to figure out what I might want to do with my life that would be meaningful and good. I am working on reconnecting with other people and creating a 'network' of some sort. I guess I am getting the sense of 'too little too late' from her and it discourages me even though I'm not doing this stuff FOR her.

[aeolianchaos]

But what you really did was take a very elitist attitude.

I can see how by what I typed, you might draw that conclusion. I won't dispute it, because I think you are correct to at least a degree.

I am no two-step, which partially explains some of my omissions.

I also 'asked' a lot of stuff too. But to be honest, I think there was a Socratic element to that asking. I struggle with this.. I know that we had a long conversation last week and I did a great job of just asking and listening. I haven't been as 'on it' this week. Not sure why.. I guess perhaps because the more we talk, the more I want her.

I did listen to her. I listen very carefully. Much of my use of 'pointed out' and 'told' was because I feel iffy about my contributions to the discussion. I will put those things that I heard below, using the phrase 'thinks' to express how i understand what she said, not to suggest I read her mind or interpreted it for her. This is going to be a little long, but please don't take it as sarcasm or reaction. I completely see how what I posted before makes me sound quite arrogant.

WRT the school thing: She thinks that I would probably do well going to school. She believes that it would be to my advantage despite my ability to teach myself things, because having it in writing might make a difference. She thinks that my parents will help me pay for it. She thinks that if I wanted to become a psychologist, I'd probably do a fantastic job. She thinks I'm one of the smartest people she's ever met.

WRT to grownup decisions. She thinks that she has grown up a lot because of these decisions. She thinks that having the affair was a 'grown up' mistake. She thinks that choosing divorce is a 'grown up' decision. She thinks that choosing to stay married would also have been a 'grown up' decision.

WRT to having her friends come help her get her stuff out of the apt. She thinks that she needs them there for moral support. She thinks that it will be the hardest thing she has ever had to do in her life. She thinks that they will be able to come over, get everything together, pack it up, and load it into a truck in one afternoon.

WRT to what she wanted in our marriage. She wanted a partner. An equal. She recognized that I did do many things right. She said that when we first got married she did feel like we were more equal. She thinks that when we moved the 2nd time that she felt like she had to worry about me. She thinks that her worries were justified because of my depression. She thinks that because I didn't have friends and didn't have work, that it somehow made me 'less than' in her eyes. She was very surprised to find out that people think she is shallow. She feels that they don't really know her. She was surprised to know that people have been picking up on her hostility towards me for a year now. She was surprised to know that even over xmas last year, people were asking my parents 'WTH is her problem...'

WRT to when she left. She says that the date (our anniversary) wasn't really something she planned on. She left because she felt like she was just wasting our time, and the point she felt like we would arrive at was inevitable. She agrees that if she could have predicted the consequences of her actions, she probably wouldn't have pursued them.

WRT to her confusion and guilt. She thinks that it may be true that she is beating herself up 'extra' to make herself feel better. Her IC thinks that she is doing so as well. She thinks that what she did is bad. She does not wish to lose me from her life although she also does not wish to stay with me. She feels like she abandoned me and worries about how I will get along w/o her.

When we were about to part ways, she made a face. I asked her what that was.. she said it doesn't matter. I said that I think it matters. She said 'I just feel sorry..' I asked her if she would like to talk about it at all or should I just get going.. she said 'i wouldn't know what to say..' I said 'okay'

I hope this is useful information. Maybe there is something in there that I am too close to and take for granted.

[aeolianchaos]

Wish you could say more about this or ... I mean, how do you even maintain a R with someone like this?

LG,

It isn't my framework. Look up Dr. David Schnarch and his stuff - his work is very inspiring.

Here's the catch, though.. part of his theory is that we only choose partners within about 1/2 step of differentiation from our level. So.. whatever I see in my W, I better look darn hard at myself, because I'm probably not that different even if perhaps I express a different type of need for validation.

[ESN]

Wish you could say more about this or ... I mean, how do you even maintain a R with someone like this?

LG,

It isn't my framework. Look up Dr. David Schnarch and his stuff - his work is very inspiring.

Here's the catch, though.. part of his theory is that we only choose partners within about 1/2 step of differentiation from our level. So.. whatever I see in my W, I better look darn hard at myself, because I'm probably not that different even if perhaps I express a different type of need for validation.

I don't know what "differentiation" means and I noticed you've mentioned Schnarch before - is there a particular work I can look at? This stuff really resonates with me -

[aeolianchaos]

Wow. I think this is phenomenal and shows your integrity.

I will play devil's advocate against my self here. Does it show integrity? Where is my integrity on this issue? Is it integrity to say things I know will make her feel guilty? What if I know they are truths (the stuff about my situation, at least..) Does it change things? Perhaps her guilt is healthy? Maybe it isn't. Maybe I should just shut up and not say stuff that makes her feel worse?

If I'm supposedly 'dbing' in many of the things I am doing or trying to do (GAL, 180s, going dark.. etc..) then is it an act of integrity to discuss the R as much as I have? What if the W brings it up first?

What if DBing isn't an act of integrity? What if it is a means to an end? What is the end? What are the specific means?

Is the end that we sell ourselves out to have our spouse? Doesn't that just make us emotionally fused and at high risk for recidivism?

To be clear, I don't think that this is the case, I think at its best DBing is actually about learning to be self-responsible and learning to soothe our own wounds without pressuring the spouse to do so. It is about learning to grow up in ways that perhaps our marriages conveniently allowed us to avoid until one person decides to jump ship. These good things give the WAS much more 'space' to start to look at things differently. It is no guarantee, though..

someone who is really not looking straight at what the issues are and I think you are presenting them to her logically and clearly rather than leaving things vague and blurry where - possibly - there is more sense of (albeit vague) hope.

I think where I fail is in the presumption that my interpretation of the situation is the only correct one. It is correct for me, and from where I stand, it makes a lot of sense. I may even be right - particularly when stating 'facts' that 'normalize' some of the behavior and thoughts that she seems to feel make her 'bad'. But it isn't really my place to do so - she needs to be able to do this for herself. I'm not an authority figure and when I act like one, it probably is very grating to her and creates resistance.

Rationally, I know this is true. In practice, I stumble. I try to catch myself and acknowledge it ASAP.

I think she'll respect you for this. You are fearless right now - facing the "truth" of the situation and not letting her slide it this way and that.

I am very fearful of many things - I fear getting 'stuck' any more than I already think I am. I fear 'losing it' when time comes for her and her friends to get her stuff out of here. I fear the idea that W will be better off without me. I fear the idea that I am angry in some way that I cannot even recognize and that some day it is going to catch me by surprise and I won't be ready to handle it.

I am doing my best to accept that fear and try and do what I think is right anyways. It isn't my job to teach her and I need to remember this even though I may want to see the truth of things, she may not want to and may not see the same information the same way I do. Her truth of the situation is going to be very different from mine based on where her head is at and the way she is thinking about things. I need to accept that a little bit better..

[aeolianchaos]

I don't know what "differentiation" means and I noticed you've mentioned Schnarch before - is there a particular work I can look at? This stuff really resonates with me -

He has a couple of articles on Popular Psychology's website.

He has written quite a few books - Passionate Marriage is the only one I've read cover to cover. I'm working through Constructing the Sexual Crucible, but it is much more dense and academic - I suspect it is targeted more towards other therapists than lay readers.

[♪CS♪]

I'm not bashing you. Not at all. Like I said, I just see so many of my weaknesses in you.

What she said to you here. THIS should be your thought right now. There is some interesting information in it.

One, she knows your smart. Look at what she said. You don't have to prove it. A lot of what you said seems to do this.

You want an interesting question?

Will you be honest?

Do you believe you are smarter than her?

Now. So. She knows you are smart. But, she doesn't see you as "strong."

She is worried about you.

How you will get by without her. How you will take care of yourself.

^^^This should be your focus.

Get that job. Get yourself happy. Take care of yourself. SHOW her you CAN take care of yourself. You ARE strong.

The words you used may have shown your intellect. But like I said. She already knows this. Nothing new. Nothing she hasn't already decided to walk away from.

Let me ask you another question.

Do you see defending yourself as a point of weakness or a point of strength?

I saw that you felt compelled to defend yourself and your ideas quite a bit.

Do you attach yourself to these ideas?

What causes you to defend them to adamantly?

There is an idea here. Actions not words.

What have you SHOWN her that you have changed?

That you have grown?

That you understand her better today than when she decided to leave?

[aeolianchaos]

Do you believe you are smarter than her?

On the surface, yes. But not once you dig down. I think she has plenty of intelligence but it is just not necessarily in the same places as mine. That is a big part of what attracted me to her -- for everything we have in common, she isn't just like me.

If I was so smart - I wouldn't have been the last one to figure out that something was seriously wrong.

How you will get by without her. How you will take care of yourself.
^^^This should be your focus.

I can see this. I agree. It is my focus -- its what I'm worried about too!

Do you see defending yourself as a point of weakness or a point of strength?

Both. It is useful to the degree that I wouldn't want to just internalize whatever judgements she might make upon me. It is useful to see my own worth.

It is a weakness if it comes from a reptilian place - blindly defending myself when I need to look carefully at what she is saying and see the truth in it.

I saw that you felt compelled to defend yourself and your ideas quite a bit. Do you attach yourself to these ideas?

Which ideas?
I didn't feel attacked this afternoon.

What have you SHOWN her that you have changed?
That you have grown?
That you understand her better today than when she decided to leave?

Well, in what sense?

I have been taking much better care of myself.

I have not pursued her at all. Even these R conversations, while I don't pretend 'everythings a ok' I don't push them.. she brings it up. I don't ask for a second chance. I don't beg or plead. I stay very calm and have willingly owned my half of this mess whenever she has brought it up.

in the past - I was very very defensive about things that really I should have owned.

I stopped pursuing a career that she was always afraid to tell me she thought I wasn't going to succeed at. After 7 years of schooling, 10 years of pursuing it, and about 46000 in student loans. I didn't stop for her - I stopped because it's time to make a change, but its still huge. Enormous. She knows it too, because she is still pursuing basically the same career.

I have been keeping the apartment clean whereas before I was always.. resistant.. to that. When she commented on this, I told her that I appreciated how much it took to keep the place
clean before.

I stopped looking after her cat. If being a doormat was part of the problem, this was a step away from that.

I don't yell at her or intellectually overwhelm her like I used to. I listen a lot more and acknowledge what she says.

I am very careful about doing anything controlling. I dont know if that means I always succeed, but I am acutely aware of it and do my best to avoid it.

In terms of understanding her better - I don't know what I can do to show that. She feels like I understand her better than anyone else in the world (her words..). So what could I do to show that I understand her better? I think that it isn't my lack of understanding her that frustrates her.. if anything I suspect its the opposite - there are things that I see and others see that she does not see or really doesn't want to see.