Words get in the way

[angel61]

Hi Cyrena,

Thanks for the practical advice. With regards to letting H lead the convos, its almost like I have no choice but to do what you say, because when he starts conversations thats when we have some productive back and forths, but when I do, its usually a monosyllabic answer. He actually once told me that he will tell me all about things, but in his time, and his choice.

About event planning, its the same thing. H plans, we park our brains and follow. Sometimes he plans way ahead, at times he jus does things on the spur of the moment. He doesn't like it when we plan on things. It can be irritating, we plan stuff and then he plans stuff and he gets mad and we have to cancel.

You can see my H is quite the control freak. I used to butt heads with him in the long ago past, but in the later years of our relationship, found out that life was more peaceful and organized when I let him be. He usually did things in such a way that also took into consideration things we like (food, places to go)and also had a lot of exciting stuff (travels to nice places, other countries, beach, etc) that actually, my D and I got quite complacent and would just wait for his ideas to gel. We rarely do bug him, but even that rare times seem to stand out.

I have just started reading a book about saving your marriage without talking and so far, it seems to resonate with me. In the book it says that not communicating is NOT the cause of disconnectedness, rather, it is the other way around. I think this may be true in our case - I do see how once we are feeling comfortable H does seem to open up slowly.

[Harrier]

In the book it says that not communicating is NOT the cause of disconnectedness, rather, it is the other way around.

I kinda get that. Our MC said that there is a certain comfort level people obtain before they can be comfortably silent around each other. That was light-bulb moment for me. I don't know if you are there yet, but silence isn't necessarily deadly.

My W is very big on this. She finds it very comforting that we can sit and watch tv w/o talking. I think it's a reaction to her family - which are yakkers. For me, the silences is harder to take, but once I saw her POV it was easier to understand.

I do think your H is being a bit unfair about the planning things. I mean it almost seems he give no respect to your ideas to the point where he'd expect you to cancel plans.

have you ever tried just doing stuff w/o him and see how he takes it.

On Monday, my W was going into work and I thought about suggesting we have breakfast out as a family before she went in. I decided not to, but I did say. "I was thinking of taking the boys to breakfast on Monday, since you are going in." She then took up the idea and said that she would like to go with us if it was early enough. We ended up having breakfast as a family.

[angel61]

Harrier,

True, H can be controlling in the "planning" thing, but to be honest, sometimes I like it. When D and I were with my girlfriends in Sedona, they were always looking to me to make the decisions. D and I one day looked at each other and I said "I miss dad!" and she totally understood.... I have to make big decisions at work, and with many other things, that the small details are best left to other people....

I am going to journal now, as I have had some time to think.
Here goes:

Self-control. I am concentrating on that right now.

I exercise it whenever I am feeling impatient, resentful, expectant, and even angry.

I especially use it to restrain myself when I am speaking to H. After reading the book I mentioned in a previous post “How to improve your M without talking”, I feel like I suddenly understand what happened to my M..

It is about how generally speaking (take note, it does not apply to everyone!) women in relationships fear isolation, being unloved, having no one to love, and things that happen that gives them this kind of feeling (when their mate rejects them through stonewalling, not communicating, A’s, etc.) brings up their anxiety level. They respond to this fear by being persistent, begging, pleading, demanding types of behaviours. On the other hand, men are driven more by a kind of a “shame based” feeling, where they are sensitive to failure (failure to provide, to make their wives happy, etc.) and they behave by avoiding, stonewalling, resisting.

In my case I realize that all the above are true. I demanded affection, asked for changes, pointed out things I thought were wrong or fixable in our R. I am a fixer. I know my H tried. I never thought the things I asked for were big, but apparently he did. No wonder when he dropped the bomb he told me that he tried so hard and that he couldn’t make me happy. And that he felt like a failure. I was stunned, coz for me, I felt content, and I was not really unhappy, it was just “if he only did this or that a little better, it would have been perfect”. Apparently the enemy of good is perfect, huh?

No wonder he got so sensitized to everything I say, that whenever I try to speak about anything to him, he thinks I am attacking him! And I am not making it any better by being unhappy.

OW …well, she of course is very appreciative of H, thinks he gives the greatest advice, is so thankful for his guidance, thinks he is her “guiding light”. She is always happy, with what little attention H can spare, and has a life with all her other friends, many of them men.

Big contrast, eh?

So I did a mind overhaul over the last few days.

This is what I am thinking now:

I am blessed with a good career, a beautiful smart daughter, financially we are OK, my H takes care of us, cooks for us, provides well. Really just counting my blessings. Nothing new, but I constantly remind myself about it now.

With that in mind, I am working on making myself happy, content with what I have, have started showing my appreciation of the little things H does for us, have stopped noticing the little things that I don’t like in H, am practicing more and more thought stopping when I think of OW, unfairness, H’s choices.

I am concentrating on making H feel more connected so that he will start communicating, instead of pushing communication when he still is in an uncomfortable frame of mind. I am starting to understand what 25 says about applauding loudly the 1%.

So far, I have been feeling better again. More positive, and I can see H responding to my positivity. We have started feeling comfortable with each other, he has been slowly communicating with me again, no longer having just monosyllabic interchanges.

TO BE CONTINUED

[angel61]

Some baby steps to be thankful for:

Last Thursday, H brought home a new variety of melon. I took some to work and really enjoyed it, so decided to write him a note. my note went like this:

Dear H,

The fruit was really sweet, and even my friends at he office like it.

Have I ever thanked you for the many times that you have taken time out of your busy work day to pop into the grocery to buy us the freshest fruits and the best food stuff? I really appreciate it.

Guess what? next day he bought some more, and made sure that I was the first person to taste it. I never really stopped to think of the effort he put into pleasing us, and especialy me, before, and all of a sudden, with my new attitude on positivity, I just realized how much I took all these little things for granted.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I just realized how much I took all these little things for granted.

GOOD for you Angel.

[angel61]

I know its trite, but it takes on new meaning when you realize how it can really affect your M big time!

Anyways....

Yesterday, my sister called me and told me my dad is having a problem with his health again. She called while we were having breakfast, so H heard most of our conversation. I noticed that he suddenly canged mood, became withdrawn and quiet. He did not ask me what was wrong.He did not call me the whole day.

I was thinking back to the time when our M was falling apart, and that was the time my parents lived with us, and had all sorts of health problems. I was so stressed and felt that it was so unfair that H dropped the bomb on me at that time.

I was thinking that maybe H was recalling those bad times and he was getting stressed. I started feeling resentful, thinking of H being selfish again, not caring, but did my best to keep a happy front, and decided not to mention anything to him anymore.

He did start becoming cheerful again in the evening, and this AM, was back to normal.

However, a friend of mine gave me some food for thought, which helped me get back on the positive side: she asked me if maybe, H was avoiding, more because of feelings of shame. I realized that it can also be true. Shame and guilt towards my parents, who he was really close to before.

It made me more compassionate towards him though.

What do you think?

[Cyrena]

Hi Angel,

I've been really impressed with much of the thinking you've done, about how to incorporate Love & Stosny's ideas into how you conduct yourself in your marriage, about increasing self-control, about your mind overhaul, etc. It's wonderful to see a stronger you showing through.

With respect to how your H suddenly became withdrawn and silent--try not to dwell too much on why, because that's all speculation and mindreading. By all means, note the change, note the connection to an earlier situation in your M, but then let it go and focus on what you can know: yourself. Whether he's feeling shame and guilt (and it seems to me a bit early in the game for him to be dealing with these issues yet) is really up to him to resolve.

I found that, from the start of the MLC till he reached Acceptance, my H was very angry at my family. Much of the time he spoke disrespectfully and critically about them, he was irritated by having to spend time with them and unpleasant afterwards ... but this was only a part of holding his own family, family of origin, and close friends at arm's length (or, of being too depressed to be able to connect effectively with them). Once he left MLC, all this gradually disappeared, and he was warm and delighted with my family again. I don't think he really remembers being otherwise, so try not to focus on it too much.

As you practice compassion, try not to think of your H as uncaring or selfish, but more as being stretched to the limit of his endurance, so that he has no care or attention left to give to anyone else. And keep thanking him for the the kindnesses he shows, because that genuine praise will make him feel better about himself.

[angel61]

Thank you Cyrena. I have been hoping to hear from you again!

Although my thought processes seem to be improving, sometimes I still get caught in some situations that push me into saying or doing things that I wish I did not do afterwards.

Last weekend, I tried to initiate ML. I was being needy and H has been distant in that aspect, although otherwise we have been getting more connected in other ways. For the first time, he rejected me, then he was upset that he made me feel bad. I just said I understood, and left it at that. I felt that he spent the rest of the weekend trying to make up for it - we even went for a drive in wine country on Sunday and he was so attentive during lunch, putting food on my plate, etc.

But the realization of how disconnected were were really hit me -the physical attraction between us was always strong even when this sitch happened. For a couple of days I felt down, but tried my best not to show it.

Another small bump occurred this week, this time over a phone call. He missed a call I made and I just asked him if his phone had no more charge and he blew the thing out of proportion.

He almost brought up the "lets end it all" under his breath, but when I asked him what he said he just said "nothing" and made an effort to be nice the rest of the evening. The being nice continued all the way till yesterday, when he left for a business trip.

One things I notice though is that he has began to look me in the eye again. He is able to hold my gaze now. He also is losing some of the rudeness, he now always says bye when he leaves for work (there was a time he would just disappear).

He also started teasing me a little, which he has not done for a long time. When I gave him a hug before he left, I sniffled a little and he told me "don't tell me you are going to cry!"ut with a teasing smile, not annoyance. Later in the day he called me and we laughed about a few things.

My dilemma right now is like one you had before: I want to know where he is with OW. I know they still talk and text; but I keep wondering what he tells her, what kind of relationship they have, is she waiting for him to one day leave us (which I feel will not happen, that even he does not consider in the near future) or merely content to be an OW?

But also, if he is staying, and he has said in so many ways and acts like he is, even planning house projects with me, and trips in the future - why does he seem not to want to even try to really reconcile in the true sense of the word? Why does he seem to be holding back? I know he cares, the way he takes care of me, but it seems like he won't even admit it to himself. Will he ever do so?

[Cyrena]

My guess would be that your H is cake-eating at the moment: he is refusing to choose between you, instead using his relationship with you and D to make him feel good about himself as a responsible father, husband and provider, and his relationship with the OW to make himself feel good emotionally. As long as he continues to phone/text/fantasize about various future possibilities with her, he feels no impetus to "really reconcile," because he's keeping all his options open.

In other words, he isn't ready to make a decision yet, which comes to the same thing as not being ready to face himself yet. When he does, he'll have to feel dreadful for the way he treated both of you (and they do begin by feeling awful for betraying the OW, not the LBS, as I'm sure you've read). I'm sure my H would have postponed that moment much longer himself, if his counsellor had not set a deadline.

I know it's easier said than done, but try not to spend too much time worrying about the relationship between your H and his OW. For one thing, it can change at any time. The "kind of relationship" they have may have positives (in that he may be able to reveal some facets of his personality that he does not with you), but she is seeing him at his worst, so it cannot be a healthy and fulfilling one. It is almost certainly a fantasy one, where they are playing roles based on family of origin issues.

My H's OW, as best I could make out, was what Schnarch describes as a person who desires to be desired without desiring. In other words, she didn't want to have a real relationship with H (or anyone else in her life), BUT, she took energy from watching him torture himself and be willing to give up everything for her. Presumably, the fact that she didn't really "want" him made her able to feel that she wasn't to blame for leading him on. Meanwhile, she used him both to make her feel good about herself, and get her into a really good job.

What I'm trying to point out is, don't worry too much about what her intentions may/may not be. She may well not understand them herself. What matters is what decision your H will eventually make about the cake-eating--and that will probably happen at the point where you have become strong enough to believe that you will be absolutely fine without him.

Have you been doing many 180's--surprising him by changing your routines, food choices, clothing choices, music choices, reactions, etc? Changing things up may make him start to feel he shouldn't be taking you for granted.

[angel61]

As usual, you hit the nail on the head, Cyrena. He is cake eating, and I always felt that because of his upbringing and his pride, he could never picture himself not being a good father and provider.

The feeling that he is betraying OW: I already see that starting in him. I think that is why he has stopped being intimate with me. I can almost feel him stopping himself from being close to me... whenever we have an unguarded moment of happiness together, he pulls back, almost visibly.

Your description of your H's OW I think also fits into my H's OW. I remember when I talked to her before, she was very adamant that she had no desire to have a permanent R with my H. She said all she wanted is to be friends. From whatever communication she has with my H that I have seen, its always just on the edge of implying a relationship but not quite. She has never mentioned love, but says she values him, his advice, guidance, etc....she does say things like "this and that reminds me of you", or that "I wish you would stay longer" but not even "I miss you". And just like your H's OW, she has gained from her friendship with my H: She got accepted into a post-doctoral program at a prestigious university here in CA into the same program my H had done, due to my H's intervention, and also, he is allegedly helping her with her research project.

I also think that she did reject his more serious advances before. I once saw a piece of paper in my H's notebook that said saomething about rejection, acceptance and moving on. This was early in the sitch, sometime after bomb. But obviously, because she was gaining something both emotionally and career wise, she kept on the contact. If she truly cared about H, she would not want him to keep on bring hurt by the whole sitch.

I once had a dream where H was sobbing to me, telling me she just used him. I will not be surprised if thats the case.

Anyways, enough of OW. No, I don't think about them all the time, I am actually pretty much happy and productive otherwise. Of course in a day, I usually have only maybe an hour to think about my sitch, but weekends can be a little tougher.

My 180's .... ongoing. I decided to cook this whole week that H is out of town. I usually don't, as that is H's job. I made it a point to let him know that! sent him pics of my dishes! Its one thing I am always dependent on him, ever since!