As an INFJ, most advice pushes towards counseling or psychology fields, which would be awesome except I have no academic background in those things. So in the meantime, I'm trying to find jobs that pay decently but also enable me to build or cultivate relationships, help people or teach them something, and perhaps give me opportunities to learn about what its like to be on the for-profit side of the world for once. Any suggestions for what those job titles are??
Coaching - could be life coaching, spiritual, relationships, anything you've mastered in your life.
I have been reading a lot of Pema Chodron lately, and I'm struck by this theme that comes up - about standing on the edge and not being right or wrong.. allowing yourself to be groundless and just experience. I can't help but think of a) how it relates to what I'm experiencing right now and b) how it relates to much of Schnarch's Passionate Marriage.
What does it mean to just allow for that kind of destabilized feeling or to in fact willingly move into it? I think its a way of accepting fear, acknowledging it, but staying true to yourself at the same time. But then, what is the self? This is where I get a little stuck. I'm pretty familiar with the concept of Anatta (not-self) but I have always felt like it referred more to the idea that much of what we see as "us" is actually not us at all, and is certainly not solid. But that there is a self that exist behind that (this pops up a lot in Eckert Tolle's work as well) and that self sees the folly in much of what our other self places so much value and weight on. But does that 'self' evolve, too? Or is it a question of expressing that self more fully in our lives?
I love Pema Chodron. Which book are you reading?
So be a coach and coach me.
I need to work on this fear stuff.
Right now my biggest dread is sharing custody of my child with BF and sharing the next 16 years living in a state (geographically haha) I don't want to live in and not being able to return to the country where I do want to live - at least part of the time.
I think its normal to have these thoughts and it makes sense you would fear those things, but that you don't have to let them define you. Do you feel like you need to defend yourself from it? If you stop fearing it, what will happen? 16 years won't go by in a blink and things will change. That much is always certain.. things change and never seem to be exactly what you wanted or feared. What happens if you just let go of fighting it, accept it, breathe into it, and see if it doesn't change?
In my epic R talk w/ WAW today, I spent a fair amount of time just breathing, listening, and trying to understand what she is feeling. It doesn't mean nothing hurts, but the pain is of a different quality.. its cleaner. Whats more, I can be who I want to be and want who I want in the face of it.
I think that digging into that feeling is scary, because we don't know what will come of it (we don't really know in the first place) but if we let ourselves just be present and not let it turn us into some version of ourselves we don't want to be, there might be something else there. Something to learn, something to understand, something that exists inside that fear. Sometimes that fear becomes something else - something a little less scary. At its best, that fear turns into a kind of compassion and sense of togetherness.
At its worst, it turns us into the kind of people we never want to be.
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
see: "Just had the mother of all R discussions. Yoinks.. nearly 3 hours and most of it focused on our relationship, her feelings of guilt and regret, my issues, the list goes on.. it kind of felt good. "
So.. yes. A very long R talk w/ WAW. After a month of NC. It was a good talk in a lot of ways.. I think it broke certain DB rules, but in other ways it was a shining beacon of what a respectful conversation can be. I am very proud of myself because in this conversation, I did achieve many of my goals in terms of how I communicate (listen more, validate, don't get defensive, be compassionate, don't 'fix', reflect, seek to understand). These were, in the context of our relationship in the past few years, 180s for me.
I will go ahead and give myself a solid B+. Almost could be an A-, but I still let myself start getting pretty in depth about nuances and stuff.. and that offsets the balance. I think she gets lost when I go there, and right now isn't the best time to have her checking out in mid-conversation.
Some key things: -She still hasn't really forgiven herself, and feels very ashamed still about what she did.
-She is very concerned with the way she thinks my family feels about it.
-She wanted to change me even when we first got together -- she felt like I was unapproachably shy and thought she could 'fix' that about me. I was quite shy, not unapproachable, but not very outgoing. I validated that yet, I did have some trouble there, but some of this comes naturally, some is real shyness. We talked a lot about the difference between introverts, extroverts, and shyness.
-Her notion of codependency seems to be that because she saw herself in the role of caretaker, and depended on me to fulfill that role, but she eventually resented it. I can see this on some levels - she didn't want to say what she was thinking/feeling because she was afraid of how it would hurt me/how i would react to it. I can see this, and I told her how much I regret my defensiveness. She felt like it was her job to defend my choices to others. I can see that too, although I would have been happy with "if you have a problem with AeolianChaos, take it up with him..". What I can't see is where she begins to go down the road of worrying if I'll have someone to talk to at a party, or food to eat, or stuff like that. I have never kvetched about this stuff. I have never depended on her for this stuff.. she could go away for months and I was just fine. This stuff is stuff I believe is in her head. I think the codependency label isn't as accurate as Schnarch's concept of emotional fusion, but if she needs that framework, I guess she'll hold on to it for now.
-Money stuff. As I've mentioned before, she has been the primary breadwinner most of the time since we got out of school. This was more of an issue than she ever let on.. although I picked up on it more than I let her know. Some talk of other stuff she felt I should have been doing if I wasn't going to be making money (ie. housework..). For the most part, I just acknowledged and validated this - there is a lot of truth to it and I certainly appreciate how much she WAS doing that I wasn't. And I told her as much.
WAW e-mailed me later this evening and followed up about some stuff. Some logistical -- how are we going to divvy up our stuff, she wants to put her stuff in storage before she goes out of country for a month. A lot of this is an issue of when and how I will get out of the apartment. I'm sure we'll work it out. I don't know if that was what this epic convo was about -- just to lead up to asking if she can get her stuff? Seems weird.
So, here are a couple of things she said in her e-mail. I am not sure what to make of it. In general I feel like they are positive things to say.. certainly more emotional and open than anything I've heard in months.
"You are so kind and gracious, and while I feel like I dont deserve your kindness, I know that you're acting in a way thats most representative of who you are and want to be, and I am so grateful for that."
"While this process is difficult for the both of us, I really want to better understand myself and how I got to the place I was in...I feel like thats the only way I'll be able to grow and better myself as a person. Talking to you today, has helped me realize many things about myself."
Ladies? Especially Sandi? I really am curious about these statements.
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
I think its normal to have these thoughts and it makes sense you would fear those things, but that you don't have to let them define you. Do you feel like you need to defend yourself from it? If you stop fearing it, what will happen? 16 years won't go by in a blink and things will change. That much is always certain.. things change and never seem to be exactly what you wanted or feared. What happens if you just let go of fighting it, accept it, breathe into it, and see if it doesn't change?
In my epic R talk w/ WAW today, I spent a fair amount of time just breathing, listening, and trying to understand what she is feeling. It doesn't mean nothing hurts, but the pain is of a different quality.. its cleaner. Whats more, I can be who I want to be and want who I want in the face of it.
I think that digging into that feeling is scary, because we don't know what will come of it (we don't really know in the first place) but if we let ourselves just be present and not let it turn us into some version of ourselves we don't want to be, there might be something else there. Something to learn, something to understand, something that exists inside that fear. Sometimes that fear becomes something else - something a little less scary. At its best, that fear turns into a kind of compassion and sense of togetherness.
At its worst, it turns us into the kind of people we never want to be.
Wow. Geez. Thanks for this. Because I took a turn tonight (just a few hours ago) this is really resonating with me right now.
I had the worst day and raged all day in the ugliest way. I knew how I looked to BF and I don't want to be that person - to him, to my mom on the phone, in front of my D. Geez.
I feel like I really want to stay where I'm residing at the moment, but it's tough. Things will push my buttons. I'll get tired and worn out and fear again.
But, I have a good hearty glimpse right now at it and it's wild wonderful and amazing - so freeing. It's how you get to joy, I imagine, rather than just bouncing between fear, desperation, and rage.
Anyway - don't mean to hijack again, but thanks for this response.
Today has been.. moderate. I think because of the depth of yesterday, things aren't quite as exciting back here in the real world.
That e-mail has me wondering - is it just trying to be nice, is it sincere? Why does it matter so much to me? Honestly its because I get the sense that she is doing the 'you're a great guy and I'm sure you'll do well in life' speech. I don't want that speech - if it is that speech, I'll handle it, but it isn't the one I want.
I have a hard time putting myself in the perspective of the WAS and the place they are stating their truth from - I can understand the whys, but I don't necessarily get the process they go through. I hope someone else can chime in on this, because its got the hamster wheel in my head running at high speed.
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
I wasn't going to say this b/c I don't know for sure, and I don't want it to hurt you - but I think she's doing it for her - she sounds very all about her - and that was just something to say to make herself look good - something that reflects nicely back on her. (And maybe eases her guilt a little.)
I wasn't going to say this b/c I don't know for sure, and I don't want it to hurt you - but I think she's doing it for her - she sounds very all about her - and that was just something to say to make herself look good - something that reflects nicely back on her. (And maybe eases her guilt a little.)
It doesn't hurt me at all. I completely accept that as a possibility.
She tends to be self-absorbed. I think its part of how she survives in the world when she doesn't want to really let anyone know her as she is - it is easier to keep shields up. So yes, I can see where she may be saying it for that reason.
I guess I'm hoping maybe a WAW or someone who has been on this side of the fence might give me some other perspectives. I don't plan on getting my hopes up, but I am trying to read as to whether or not what happened yesterday 'worked' and how I can improve on it.
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
If I took a stab at guessing... LG pretty much called it...
You got some "canned" responses in the email...
Here's where you actually KNOW it's getting better:
When she starts moving towards you, not away from you, and not "same old"...
It's like this...
The only way that your W knows that you are a better man and that you are a man that only a fool would leave, is when you make significant changes which are positive for you, in your life, you exude confidence... and it STICKS... it's permanent stuff... people around you see it, they like it, it's all good...
The only way that you will know your W is moving towards you is when... they start communicating with you on a more regular basis, they start showing curiousity at what you are doing, they start making future plans and those plans INCLUDE you... they make MC appointments so that the two of you can work on your M... that these things are consistent and persistent, so that you actually can believe that they are permanent...
There is no where near enough data... it's not that you didn't tell us enough... it's because a three hour conversation and a follow up email does not pass the consistent and persistent test...
But I do feel you are doing a great job! Keep moving forward and GAL!
I agree with KD - there's nothing to really read into it. It's all about her right now - her changes, her growth - she's recognizing yours but I think that might be her wanting to recognize hers - or you to recognize her in the same way some day - it's not a moving toward anything at this point.
I get messed up on this too sometimes, like what does it mean that BF is doing a, b, c - joking with me, putting his arm around me, going out at 3 am to buy me a chicken sandwich.
Means nothing. He's still moving out and it's probably just to allay his own guilt!
