Feeling alone and frustrated with a 180.

[~ kd ~]

Oh, just to note on your last post, Psych...

Has your W ever used words to describe how her experience dealing with your label has been for her?

What I mean is, has she ever said, "It is very hard for me when you melt down." or as you suspect above, "I often feel I have to walk on egg shells around you."

I ask this because how she integrates her experience of you will go towards how she processes how to proceed...

The tragedy is, you can figure things out that will help a long way to your interaction with her, and I'm guessing when she found out about your label, she was OK with it...

I'd like to believe that when she said "for better or worse" that she meant it... not to judge her, but I'm just saying. Because I've thought about that kind of thing, recently...

Say if someone has terminal cancer, it's bad but slow cancer, and the prognosis is perhaps, 1.5 years... and at the .75 year mark, the spouse with cancer says, "That's OK. I release you of our marriage. Please understand that I want you to find someone new that you will be happy with, once I'm gone..."

It's up to the non-cancer spouse to accept or deny that offer by the dying spouse... and if they choose to move on... no one would judge them... and sometimes... it's that offer specifically that causes the living spouse to be firm and resolved in staying M through even the worst of it...

I don't know really what I'm getting at here, I'm just putting some thoughts out there.

In my sitch... maybe my W is just really done... and even though I've suggested she move on, and she is moving on regardless of my suggestion, she just doesn't want to speed the process up... her own reasons have prevented her to save money, wait for mediation, and what ever other reasons that she's really not in a rush to actually file D.

I don't have to like it if we D... but I do need to accept that possibility. I do not have to push her out the door, willingly nor unwillingly... but some times... people just have enough of something and they move on...

Again, just something you might ponder... might fit for you, might not...

[~ kd ~]

Kaffe Diem...from Eureka?

lol... and I always wanted to maintain that I came up with that moniker myself...

[Psych77]

Thanks, Kaffe. I appreciate the support.

Now it's getting hard, trying to keep my cool not seeing immediate results. I keep second guessing myself, wondering if I'm doing the right thing, asking if there is really any hope for our marriage. Has W been through too much to believe we can ever be in love again? Am I still worth enough to her to try? Can I ever change?

I am pretty sure these questions are just things I have to go through. When I am in Karate, they teach (mostly to the kids classes, which I sometimes see while I am waiting for mine to start) that the difference between a black belt and someone who never makes it is whether they keep trying in the face of defeat and discouragement. And I think that maybe questioning what I can do (especially when my changes, as hard as I try, are still far from consistent) is one of those "tests," one that I just have to keep trying right through.

In the meantime, I still feel very isolated.

Again, I am glad that I have this forum to type. It has me "journaling" consistently, and I am so glad to have the feedback from Kaffe and JTB.

Just read up a little on "dropping rope," and I'm finding that is one thing I need to do. Kaffe, I can't believe you placed an actual date on it! For me, it seems like something I couldn't do only once and be done with it, but something I would have to continually work on.

Anyway, back to reading DR. I got it out of the library, but there are so many insights that really struck me, I think I will need to buy a copy, because I should read it repeatedly.

[Psych77]

To answer your question, Kaffe...

W was physically and emotionally abused as a child (up through her teens), and parents still have a controlling attitude toward their children. She has not really described how it feels for her, but her reaction is angry. You have to kind of translate anger. She's a New Yorker, so she expresses fear as anger. Although I have never hit her, I know that she sees my meltdowns as demands for control. In fact, she HAS referred to that behavior as "bullying."

It hurt me so much when she told me that. But, as I go back to it, I feel a warmth for that moment, because she was telling me her feelings, and still trying to reach me, to bring us back together.

Now, she does not seem to want that at all. Now, everything just feels cold.

I wish keeping cool and understanding differences between us just came naturally. I wish I didn't wait so long to start making these changes. On the other hand, when we were still arguing and trying to come together, I felt so threatened that I just tried to "fix it," to do what someone else called, "the changes brought about by fear." I was too scared to back up and see the bigger problems. The fact that for years I have not viewed myself as a person separate from her. That I have not allowed her to be distinct from me. That I have not looked at how my own behaviors were pushing her away.

Man, I don't want it to be too late!

I guess it's obvious I am having a rough time today.

Yeah, looking back at last night, I really do need to "drop the rope." W got aggravated with me, and I immediately picked that up. Got angry. Thankfully, this time W would not get into an argument, and after I told her twice she was wrong, and she let it go, I dropped it.

I just wish she didn't have to be the one to let it go. I wish I could have used that opportunity to show her she could trust me not to make an argument out of things.

OK, I guess I have just about typed myself out. I don't have anything more to say, and I am tired.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Now it's getting hard, trying to keep my cool not seeing immediate results.

It took your wife awhile (years not months / months not weeks) to get to this point of thinking she is done. Nothing you do is going to quickly change her mind.

Immediate results? Are usually BAD results when the WAS makes them.

[Psych77]

JTB

Of course, you are right. We have had a lot of "breakthrough" recoveries over the years, but the problems just kept on building up over time. And each crisis was a little worse than the one before it.

I hust read Goal-setting rule #3, you know, about setting small goals, so I can see them happen? Maybe that will help me to feel I am going in the right direction, if I start seeing little things happen. That is really my problem - not questioning whether I am doing the right thing in the absence of a visible sign that what I do is helping.

Thank you.

[~ kd ~]

On the same vein ask Jack's post, this is something that will take time.

Understand that your sensei can show you a move, you can practice it and you get immediate feedback. In DB, that is not the case. Your W will not tell you whether you are getting it wrong, getting it right, or where you are in between very positive and not so much... So what works for you is unfortunately not going to be easily available for you. This will be a challenge...

So in order to see that something is working, choose small steps and do them over a period of time and eventually you should see what the results are and if or how to course correct. That's probably where your feeling of isolated is coming from. That the feedback isn't there. Your W is insulating her deepest feelings from you. That's typical. Yes... you are on your own to work on YOU.

Certainly I did not one day, suddenly drop the rope. It took time and a few attempts. The date mentioned below was when I really changed my efforts to accepting that I will be OK if my M is not saved and began truly living for me and my kids. And it still took from from then to not fall back onto the roller coaster. But not much... And I did not preset that date in my mind. It just happened after one too many emotional triggers were pulled...

It's too bad that you had an argument with your W. It is too bad that her upbringing may be coming up in your M now. These are things that you really have to try to avoid. If your W really thinks you are a bully, it is simply what she thinks. Understand that you may NOT be a bully, it's just what she thinks or the word she uses. For whatever reason...

I would like to recommend at this point that you work on validating statements.

Regardless of whether your W was right or wrong, telling her she's wrong... she won't take well to that. I get that it will be difficult to comprehend, but she may not be engaging you in argument to determine who is correct or incorrect and to what, varying degree... It could just be emotional outburst and ANY subject might be an opportunity for her to release those negative emotions.

So work on validating statements and work on ensuring they come across as sincere and not condescending...

[Psych77]

Thanks, Kaffe. What you said helps me to feel a little more stable.

Each of these things is so big of a change for me, in the most basic ways that I think, and there are so many of them. I know, just one thing at a time. Baby steps.

I am feeling OK today which is mixed news. It is good news, because I am not having as much difficulty coping as I did yesterday, and in that way, I'll take it. But, to be honest, I am doing better because W and I were calmer, more cordial last night, so that just shows I'm still on the roller coaster.

Went to therapy today, and we talked a lot about the roller coaster, although those words were not used. I am realizing now that I have spent a lot of years trying to avoid making W angry, being afraid of her anger. I grew up in a house where loud fighting did not happen (except between the kids), and so it is scary for me. I have to say, it is embarrassing to tell about this, because as I type it I think about how weak and pathetic it must sound. Anyway, she is from a more, er, expressive background, and isn't afraid to be angry. So, I have largely been stuffing myself down into a hole, trying to keep the peace, and now have to learn to respect myself.

Another think keeping me on the roller coaster has been my bent to assume that I am somehow the cause of every bad mood, irritable and angry episode W has. So, when she is angry, I have been worrying about what I did, or what I need to do.

When I tease out all these problems, it looks like so much to try to change, and on such a fundamental level. It is a little (a lot) daunting.

I guess it is one of those "act as if" moments. You know, act as if I didn't believe everything was my fault, and see if, over time, my thoughts don't change. Act as if all I want to do is be myself, and am unmoved by W's responses, and see if I don't develop more courage that way.

And doing all of this, I might be able to listen to W without getting defensive, but rather focusing on how she feels about what she is saying, and how things impact her. I think that would probably be a pretty welcome change from her point of view.

Yes, this really is embarassing to put out there. I feel pretty pathetic admitting to all this stuff, and looking at some of it I feel like I must be a real jerk for acting that way. I think I would probably feel embarassed even if I were just typing it to myself. But I think sometimes the fact that something is uncomfortable to talk about is evidence that it is exactly what I *need* to talk about. At least, the fact that it is so uncomfortable means it is probably something I haven't touched before, so if it is important, I have avoided it so far.

W is going with kids to visit her brother out of state later in August. I have already taken a vacation this year, and although I could probably get the additional time off, I told W I wouldn't be going. I think the time to myself might just be good for me. Just a little "baby step" in terms of detaching.

[a girl]

Just remember that each day will have more good minutes than the day before. It might only be 1 more, and it might be too small to see, and the bad minutes might be *really* bad, but you are making progress. In 6 months, you won't recognize yourself.

[Psych77]

Girl, that is one of the sweetest things I could hear. Thank you.