Nearly 5 years but who is counting?

[Dawn of Hope]

Wow, 25, that is a lot all at once! I may have to respond in chunks. Thanks for caring enough to write out all of that. Taking it in order of what you said:

I believe that even if I knew for sure there would not be a reconciliation, God would still want me to stand.

Not sure what that^^^ means, given that you say you can't forgive. I mean, that is being STUCK more than anything else, isn't it?

have you gone to a priest/minister about learning to forgive?

It means that although I am not a person who likes to paste Bible quotes everywhere, there's one in the epistles that I take to heart which says that a married couple shouldn't separate, but if they do, they should remain unattached to anyone or reconcile with each other.

I know I am stuck. I hope something I try will unstick me and I will find a way to forgive, preferably sooner rather than later. I know God wants us all to forgive each other, and it disrupts my relationship with God when I fail to forgive, but believe me, I'm not doing it to be difficult; I just don't know what the next step toward forgiving is or how to take it.

I did go to my pastor about this. His response was, "You can't forgive someone for something they are still doing." I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, but he has a point. I am not going to talk about all the things my H is still doing which are contrary to a loving M, but suffice it to say that as far as most people can tell, he shows every sign of being completely done with me (except that he hasn't filed, which is another discussion). Most of the past problems that I have had difficulty forgiving are still going on in the present.

Forgiveness for me, was a process and it's a learned skill. I simply did not know how to do it.

But I learned a lot about it.

I posted to Denver about in a thread of his that I added the words "a glimpse of forgiveness"to, the other day.

It might help you although it's based on a 4 day trip I took with my h back when a divorce seemed likely.

Can you give a link, or more info on where to find this post?

I figured for FOUR DAYS, I could be "Saint 25"...no way was I going to be the one to blow it...I could always "resume the position of anger" later on...(the fact that it was temporary for me is what made it possible, I'm sure...)

so later on when the trip was over and we'd had such a good time, I had really learned a lot...see the post if you want more info. I think it was a miracle really.

That meant temporarily seeing h as positively as possible, or at least not negatively.

& it changed the way I began to see h, (& he relaxed a lot too) and I was eventually able to stay in the present and let go of the past. Instead, seeing it as "from this day forward."

In fact,

by forcing yourself to stay in the "now", you eventually crowd out the ability to live in the past and as a result, you let it go.

Being in the now, really helped my happiness level.

It's a KEY part of forgiveness,

and it has nothing to do with condoning behavior.


Hope that helps, even if not all applicable.

I can see how this has merit and might help. I'm not sure how to reconcile it with the knowledge (or at least the belief based on the little information that has come to me) that in the NOW, my H is sleeping with someone else and avoids me as much as possible.

(Oh, and for the record, I WAS practically Saint Dawn during the year+ that my H was living at home after the bomb. From the day after the bomb until now, I was pleasant and polite to him, and I didn't argue with him, sabotage him, refuse to do things for him, ask him for anything more involved than "please pass the salt," or intentionally make his life more difficult in any way [except on one occasion, when he asked me to agree to something I just couldn't stomach, and I politely refused; he moved out 3 weeks later]. I didn't spend any of his earnings except on his initiative. I didn't cry or lose my temper in front of him, beg, call him on the carpet for anything he was doing, or contact him [unless it was extremely urgent or he contacted me first]. I wouldn't fight with him or even criticize him, even when he initiated. I did my fair share of things that were wrong during this period (such as snooping)--I wasn't a complete saint--but not those. If he had started hitting me or something, I wouldn't have stood still for that, but he didn't, and we all have to decide for ourselves where we draw our own lines in the sand, and I put up with some things that other people said they wouldn't have tolerated. On the other hand, I started changing things about myself that had been needed for years. Too bad I didn't manage to change enough of them, apparently.)

I suspect that one of the big roadblocks to R in my M is me, because I am completely stuck in unforgiveness, and I have no idea what I have to do to be able to forgive. I know it's essential, and I want to be able to let go, but I don't know how. I've tried everything I can think of on my own, but it hasn't really improved for a couple of years.

What have you tried?

At one point I began to say out loud, while jogging or in the shower, "God, i hand my pain/anger over to you" (Cause it's too much for me)...
AND OR,

"God I hand my m over to you" I would say it before h would call or visit.
It helped me not lose it in front of him. Sometimes I said it 50 times out loud and as gimmicky as it sounds, thinking it, saying it, and hearing it all

DOES help it sink in more...

And that was a start.

I went to my pastor, as I mentioned. I have read almost everything I can find on forgiveness. I have listened to advice from others on the topic and tried most of it. More than anything else, I have prayed for help with it, from every angle I can think of, until I am sure God is sick of listening. For a few months after the bomb, I thought I was gradually moving toward forgiveness, as I learned to cope with my new, post-bomb reality, and the emotions started becoming a bit less raw, but eventually I got to a certain point and got stuck, and it seems that nothing has moved me any closer to forgiveness since then.

because it's really all about our happiness, right? Well, no, it's not. It's about our holiness, and about praying our WAS back to a R with God. And then after that, God may bless us with a restored M, but that's the fruit, not the root.

Maybe I'm off here, and don't want to argue your faith b/c I am a believer myself. I thank God for where I am today and where I've been.

But I know God wants us to be happy here on earth. Not at all costs OR in the wrong ways....There may be tests for us. But we're not here to suffer through it all and hope for the best.

(At least, not to my way of thinking). I know God wants me to be happy BUT

doing what is right morally, IS what would make me happy.

So Maybe it's semantics, but I think Needless suffering is...worse than needless.

First, I will say that there are things that have changed for the better about me since the bomb which--much as I hate to admit it--would never have changed for any circumstances less dramatic. I think that God tried to get my attention in ways that were less disruptive, but I wasn't listening, so the stakes had to be raised. I'm listening better these days.

Second, my thinking is that I AM doing what is right morally. (At least in this general regard; I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, without sin.) I really, really dislike getting into battles involving Biblical quotes, so I'll just say that as best I can tell, God sees a valid marriage as binding those two people together exclusively for life, even in the face of civil D and "marriage" to someone else, and therefore God wants spouses to stay committed to each other, regardless of the provocation. It is possible that there are exceptions--I am not going to claim I have an omniscient understanding of scripture or that I know what's best for anyone else; that's God's job, and I certainly don't want the position!--but if so, I don't think any of them apply to my situation.

Regardless...

I think Starsky's question is whether you have any boundaries b/c unlike you, there are those who are in abusive relationships here, and some of them cling to spouse BUT they misuse their religion as an excuse for putting themselves AND their children at risk (so that they, the LBSer doesn't ever work on changing themselves, and while they are standing still and not changing, (b/c they are RIGHT)

they call it 'Standing" for their m ) and

they are so terrifed/angry/stubborn about changing themselves (or needing to be RIGHT) and/or

they are so afraid of being on their own,

that they won't protect their kids OR take a stand against violence.

First, there are no kids in my situation, so that is not an issue in my stand. I have a policy of never giving parenting advice because I am not qualified, but in more general terms, I do believe that one of a parent's essential responsibilities is to protect their kids as far as possible (except where necessary for the kids' growth [which is of course a major judgment call in certain situations]). Even if what you have to protect them from is the other parent.

Second, I think that we are all called to keep changing all the time, because none of us are perfect, nor do we have an ideal relationship with God yet (and if you know of any exceptions, I'd be interested to hear about it). LBS's are especially called to change, once the initial post-bomb paralysis has eased up, and anyone who doesn't take the opportunity to figure out how to become a better person, one way or another, is being a bit foolish, IMHO. For one thing, we get the "gift" of being told, by someone who knows us probably better than anyone else in the world, _exactly_ what our flaws are ... no being held back by politeness, consideration for our feelings, or anything else! So we know exactly what we need to work on, like it or not.

Another thing about being an LBS is that it tends to drive you to your knees, so you develop a stronger R with God, which helps guide you in other areas of improvement too. A corollary to that is that you are (one hopes) more open to the possibility of God showing you that you have an incorrect belief or assumption or that you are going about something in the wrong way, which, ideally, helps with the dogmatism. Someone asked me what it would take for me to be open to the possibility of dating (which is a totally alien idea for me). My response was that outside of the death of my H, it would take being convinced that scripture did not, in fact, insist that I am M for life, no exceptions for bad behavior or pesky legal issues. And so far I haven't seen any scripture which made me think that was a possibility, but I like to think that I am humble enough to admit that I could be wrong about a lot of things.

Standing for your M does NOT mean standing still.

It always strikes me as odd/ironic to use God as a reason for that kind of hell on earth.

I saw it growing up, so I am sensitive to it.

But Dawn, don't get me wrong.

I only say this as a message to those who might misinterpret your ways. I've been trying to help 2 people here but it's a brick wall b/c they use scripture to ignore what they're putting their children through

never mind the venegful nature of their wishes, or their refusan to accept ANY responsibility for their m problems...

(I may refer you to them if you are interested??)

You could send them to me if you want (if so, have them put a message on my thread [see my signature below] about where to find them; I will get notified faster that way). However, as I said above, I don't give parenting advice, so I don't know how much help I can be regarding kid-related issues.

I do think we all have to accept responsibility for our own contributions to the fracture in the M. However, I think recognition of those contributions is a process.

You sound as if your priorities are handled in that your kids are not in danger and

you sound fine with possibly being single the rest of your life, b/c

you said that even if God were to tell you there is no reconciliation in his plan,

If I understand what you said correctly,

you'd still stand... I don't "get that"

BUT let's be clear, I ACCEPT IT.

Cheers!

I didn't get M with the idea that I'd spend years 15 and onward alone, despite having a living S (who does?). I thought I had a H who was totally committed to the idea of being M for life. But when the rubber met the road, and I started studying scripture more intensively than ever before because I had life-changing decisions to make, I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to be in God's will for my life, I had no choice other than to proclaim, and live, the idea that my M cannot be ended by the actions of anyone on earth; not my H, not OW, and not any judge. We are still M in God's books as long as we are both alive, and no court can change that. And if we are still M (which, in fact, we are, in the legal sense as well as in God's eyes, although that is immaterial in terms of the present discussion), then I have to conduct myself as a M person, even if my H is absent, in mind, heart, and/or body. Even if he's been taken hostage by aliens, or the devil. That means that if I want to please God, I can't say nasty things to or about my H, I can't do things to hurt or sabotage him, I can't dishonor or disrespect him, and I most certainly can't look at anyone else as a possible replacement for him!

Again, I want to be clear that I am not trying to tell anyone else what to do here. I certainly have my opinions and beliefs, but I acknowledge the possibility that I could be wrong. In the meantime, in order to be able to face myself in the mirror, I have to be in integrity by acting consistently with my beliefs. This doesn't mean that I am allowed to stay static (as I mentioned above, I think we are all obligated to keep changing in order to try to align ourselves with God's will). It's really tough for me to step out of my box, especially with the depression and suicidal impulses that weigh me down every day, but I keep working at it. I am still a mess in a lot of ways, but on my better days, I recognize that I'm improving, one tiny step at a time (interspersed with plenty of steps backwards, but overall there is forward progress, at least).

I want a restored M. I pray for that, and for my H, every day. I expect that I will be pretty unhappy about it if it turns out that isn't in the cards, but the fat lady won't sing as long as H and I are both alive, so it isn't over yet. And--guess what?--the results are up to God. And the God I believe in is still in the business of performing miracles...every day. My job is to keep my eyes on God and follow directions as best I can. God is in charge of the rest. The thing about faith is that if you trust God, in the depths of your soul, to have your best interests at heart, then you are able to leave the outcome up to God and stop worrying about it.

That's my take, but ... I could be wrong. Thanks for reading and listening.

Peace,
Dawn