Walking in Muskeg - Part IV - Squishy Rubber Boots

[ericmsant2]

Scylla
I have never posted to you before but was reading up on some of your old threads and wanted to provide my perspective on your sitch.
Re: the hug comments:

So you're saying somehow this is a positive sign? He's still comfortable enough to be around people that do love me. Is that what you're getting at?

My STBXW did some of the same things….would walk in a room and say hello and hug everyone EXCEPT me. I actually felt the same way that you did….that she must have been doing this to piss me off. What I came to realize is that for her she was really done (at least in her mind). The lack of a hug from her to me was HER boundary. It was HER message. I finally came to realize that what she wanted…rather needed…was to see that I was “accepting of her” choices, which is the place where I finally came to. I finally accepted that SHE was done with the R. So…why is this a positive? Here is my take:
1) By accepting her position I freed her and me from the pain that remained every time we interacted.
2) By freeing her I now gave her the opportunity to “look” at the R from a different place. That said, I also accepted that she MAY choose to not consider reconciliation.
3) Freeing her and trying to be as civil as possible, also shows that you respect (not agree) with their choices.

Right now, at this moment LauraOh, I consider him truly gone.

This ^^^^ is good IMO. Accept that he is gone because in many cases, the R must start anew. A new R (if possible) can only start once the old one is dead and gone.

It's just a matter of finishing dividing assets and me becominng fully self supporting.

I may be misreading the “tone” in which you wrote this BUT I sense anger in having to divide assets and becoming self supporting. The anger is normal Scylla. That said, why not look at it from a different perspective? Why not consider it a positive (as best as you can). Consider that YOU Scyall will rebuild under difficult condition BUT it is YOU and ONLY YOU that will do this. That in and of itself should be uplifting and not negative.

He is my co-parent.

Some MLCer are NOT co-parents…some are not parents at all or some are more of a “parallel parent”. Be grateful that he is trying to co-parent with you. Consider this, the more angry he sees you the less likely he is to consider (and YES it is HIS and YOUR CHOICE to ever give this another chance) reconciliation in the future.

Not my friend or someone that even likes/cares who I am.

How do you know this? Take a step back for a second and step away from your own anger at him…..would YOU want to be YOUR friend if you were being treated like you treat him? I am not saying that you do not have a right to be angry. No. What I am saying is why would YOU want to be friends with someone that seems (even when it is subtle) angry at you.

I am who I am.

In principal I agree with you. That said, I know that sometime we can use this as an excuse. An excuse to not do the real work on ourselves.

I can change my behaviour, but my basic character remains.

Does it? Really? What is character to YOU? Is your character one of compassion, a kind spirit? Is your character PRIDEFUL? Is that it? IMO, this comes across once again as anger. It is almost like you are saying that “hey…I am stubborn it is who I am and although I can “act” like I am not…deep down inside I am”. Personally, it is an excuse…at least IMO.

Sux to be me.

It only sux to be YOU if YOU feel that way. So why do YOU feel that way?

I see it as acceptance that I made a critical error in my life at quite a young age. An error that will be difficult to recover from in many areas of my life. My responsibility. Yeah I screwed up.

I agree with laura…kind of a victim mentality. We all made mistakes in our life. You, your H, me, my STBXW, my friends, my parent, your parents, everyone. Look ya did the best you knew how to do at the time. You know better now. Forgive yourself Sycall. Do not hide behind the anger and pride. Accept that you made mistakes as did your H. Then let them go.
“difficult” to recover is NOT impossible. What are trying to recover though? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

I made a lot of bad choices. I accept that my choices have consquences.

You did, f*ck I did too. Fine. It is what it is. Yes there are consequences to bad choices. Accept them. That said YOU do not have to live in that state of mind. You can choose to forgive yourself, your H and YOU can choose to become the women that YOU really want to be. That women that is deep down inside of you. A woman that you can look at and be proud of BUT it takes some work on your part. Letting go of anger and pride would probably be the first step.

To be honest - the best thing you could do for yourself is to detach from him and from any "expectations" about rebuilding your relationship.

Spot on Walking….spot on!
Scylla, I have no comment on the dating comment. Do what You feel you need to do. I will only ask you these questions….
1) Do you think you are healed?
2) Do you think it is fair to someone else that may not understand where you are at?
3) Do you think you are done? And if so, what does done mean to you?
Good luck and God Bless,
Eric

[Queen_of_Swords]

Thanks for your view Eric.

I may be misreading the “tone” in which you wrote this BUT I sense anger in having to divide assets and becoming self supporting. The anger is normal Scylla. That said, why not look at it from a different perspective? Why not consider it a positive (as best as you can). Consider that YOU Scyall will rebuild under difficult condition BUT it is YOU and ONLY YOU that will do this. That in and of itself should be uplifting and not negative.

No so much anger Eric, more resignation and a realization I will be left destitute, scrambling and carrying the full load of supporting myself and my children now.

Some MLCer are NOT co-parents…some are not parents at all or some are more of a “parallel parent”. Be grateful that he is trying to co-parent with you. Consider this, the more angry he sees you the less likely he is to consider (and YES it is HIS and YOUR CHOICE to ever give this another chance) reconciliation in the future.

This is how I see him now Eric, It may in fact be a case of parallel parenting shortly. As for another chance...this morning, it's not even a consideration. My marriage is over, my relationship with him pretty much that of an aquaintence. The only binding between us is our children.

How do you know this? Take a step back for a second and step away from your own anger at him…..would YOU want to be YOUR friend if you were being treated like you treat him? I am not saying that you do not have a right to be angry. No. What I am saying is why would YOU want to be friends with someone that seems (even when it is subtle) angry at you.

I'm not angry Eric. You read anger where there is none. When I feel anger I go to the source of it now and the source is usually a hearty slap to my self esteem and value. That's pain Eric, not anger.
I am a good friend, and yes I'd want to be friends with myself.
How do I know he's not my friend or that he even likes me? Behaviourally Eric. I've said this before, if there were no kids between us, I'd not see him for dust. There is a contempt and faint disgust for me in his face when he does see me. His eyes are like flint, when he looks at me. His mouth twists subtly. He's ready to run from the moment he hits my front stoop to pick up or drop off the kids.

In principal I agree with you. That said, I know that sometime we can use this as an excuse. An excuse to not do the real work on ourselves.

I understand your perspective here. It's not true in my case. I know how much work I've put into myself and continue to put into my personal emotional healthy and development. I have come a long way and other people in my life have noticed that and commented on it as well.

Does it? Really? What is character to YOU? Is your character one of compassion, a kind spirit? Is your character PRIDEFUL? Is that it? IMO, this comes across once again as anger. It is almost like you are saying that “hey…I am stubborn it is who I am and although I can “act” like I am not…deep down inside I am”. Personally, it is an excuse…at least IMO.

No anger Eric. Character is who you are when no one is around to watch. My character is honest, kind, not quite as compassionate as I'd like ( I wasn't shown much growing up so it's something that needs more development),loyal, reliable, helpful,thoughtful.

It only sux to be YOU if YOU feel that way. So why do YOU feel that way?

Because Eric, I have to deal with this crap. I never expected it, and I'm not coping well, that's why.

What are trying to recover though? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Well I thought I was trying to recover a marriage and a loving relationship. Obviously this isn't true anymore. I realise that a very slim minority of people on this site will ever regain that, and this site is mostly a divorce support group now.
As of today, I'm not trying to accomplish anything anymore but to try to get through a certain divorce and try to come out of it if not victorious, at least adequately.

You did, f*ck I did too. Fine. It is what it is. Yes there are consequences to bad choices. Accept them. That said YOU do not have to live in that state of mind. You can choose to forgive yourself, your H and YOU can choose to become the women that YOU really want to be. That women that is deep down inside of you. A woman that you can look at and be proud of BUT it takes some work on your part. Letting go of anger and pride would probably be the first step.

You keep saying I'm angry Eric. I don't quite see why, but that's your 2cents. Eric how does someone who's self esteem been ripped to the ground appear prideful? Only pride I've got right now is in my appearance and that my friend is the brave public face.
Right now, today, all I'm trying to do is turn off the pain and not care anymore, go dead inside and not feel anything for my STBX.

Scylla, I have no comment on the dating comment. Do what You feel you need to do. I will only ask you these questions….
1) Do you think you are healed?
2) Do you think it is fair to someone else that may not understand where you are at?
3) Do you think you are done? And if so, what does done mean to you?

1) No, not yet, but getting there steadily.

2) I'm very explicit about where I am and what I'm looking for. I hide nothing. Then it's up to them.

3)Yes, today I'm done. He may as well be dead.
I can't afford to care about him anymore but in a superficial manner. I hung on to hope for a long time. I read about divorce and what it does to kids, I read MWD books. I believed there was hope for my family, for me, for us. I thought I had a chance. Turns out that chance is like winning a multimillion dollar lottery.

From today on I imagine my STBX will be kind of like the co-worker that you see from time to time but you have no personal relationship with. You see them at lunch and company functions only. You say hello and their name and move on to your task. You don't ask about their weekend, their life and they don't ask about yours.

[ericmsant2]

SC,

more resignation and a realization I will be left destitute, scrambling and carrying the full load of supporting myself and my children now.

“resignation”, “destitute”, “scrambling”, “carrying the full load”…these words/quotes are all self defeating if ya ask me. Are they normal? Yep…but change how you look at things. For example:

Personally, in my sitch…(although financially it will be difficult)…I feel resolute and honored to be carrying almost the full load of taking care of my children. I feel empowered. I feel strong. I feel proud of myself.

As for another chance...this morning, it's not even a consideration. My marriage is over, my relationship with him pretty much that of an aquaintence. The only binding between us is our children.

In keeping with my change how you look at it perspective…..

It is perfectly normal to say that you are done this morning. It does not mean that you will not be done tomorrow. Everything in your life is a choice that you make. I am not suggesting that you consider taking him back. Nope. I am suggesting that you work hard to let go of any negative feelings towards him and really just focus on today. Today, choose to try and feel happy and let him go, today choose to be honored to be the parent that your children need. Oh…and FTR, I was an acquaintance FIRST with my best friend. I was an acquaintance first to my STBXW….good and healthy relationship usually start as acquaintances.

SC, you say that I see anger in your post but that only pain exists. I can only tell you my experience, which was masked anger. It was very subtle but it was there.

Now you say you are not angry…allow me to explain why I (from my perspective) saw anger….

There is a contempt and faint disgust for me in his face when he does see me. His eyes are like flint, when he looks at me. His mouth twists subtly. He's ready to run from the moment he hits my front stoop to pick up or drop off the kids.

And ya mean to tell me that the face that he gives you does not make you angry?

I am a good friend

You are not angry because he can’t see that you are a good friend?

How do I know he's not my friend or that he even likes me? Behaviourally Eric

You are not angry because he is not your friend even though you love him and have done all of…..

I know how much work I've put into myself and continue to put into my personal emotional healthy and development. I have come a long way and other people in my life have noticed that and commented on it as well.

This ^^^^ work? You’re not angry that he cannot see it?

My character is honest, kind, not quite as compassionate as I'd like ( I wasn't shown much growing up so it's something that needs more development),loyal, reliable, helpful,thoughtful.

And you are not angry that he does not see your character or see that you have accepted that you still need to be more compassionate?

I have to deal with this crap. I never expected it, and I'm not coping

And YOUR not angry because you have had to deal with the unexpected AND you are not coping with it well.

I thought I was trying to recover a marriage and a loving relationship

Chit….I was really pissed when I tried to recover a marriage and was unable. Really pissed. I guess you are not though.

As of today, I'm not trying to accomplish anything anymore but to try to get through a certain divorce and try to come out of it if not victorious, at least adequately

Funny…I used to say to myself that I wanted to be “victorious” when I was really angry. When the anger began to subside…my words changed. “Fair” become more of my focus. No one wins here SC. IMO, only people that are ANGRY feel they need to win. My STBXW wants to WIN….know why? ‘Cause she is angry with herself.

Eric how does someone who's self esteem been ripped to the ground

And WHEN I realized that OM was more important than me (at least in her eyes but not mine)…when I FELT that my self respect, esteem, everything about myself was thrown to the floor and stomped on…well I was not just angry….I WAS IN A RAGE…but maybe that is me SC…maybe you are NOT angry.

I'm trying to do is turn off the pain and not care anymore, go dead inside and not feel anything for my STBX.

Hmmm….I remember wanting to stop the pain. Man do I. Ya know I was afraid to be angry…actually I was afraid to admit to myself that I was angry.

Anger though….keeps a person bound. Keeps a person connected….Anger does not let you really let go.

SC, my only point is that in order for you to go through this…anger will need to be felt. You can mask it, tuck it away, ignore it, do whatever it is you feel you need to do to NOT feel it BUT FEEL it you must.

For you SC…for you….

Peace will follow when the anger subsides….

IMO, at that point….

From today on I imagine my STBX will be kind of like the co-worker that you see from time to time but you have no personal relationship with. You see them at lunch and company functions only. You say hello and their name and move on to your task. You don't ask about their weekend, their life and they don't ask about yours.

These ^^^^ feelings may be different. I am not saying they will and I am not suggesting that you act like you are buddy buddies with your H.

I asked about your character…

My character is honest, kind, not quite as compassionate as I'd like ( I wasn't shown much growing up so it's something that needs more development),loyal, reliable, helpful,thoughtful.

Honest – that is good. Can you be totally honest with yourself? If you can and you can look past the pain and hurt right now. Can you be…compassionate towards your H? Can you be thoughtful towards him? I am not suggesting that you become a doormat. Not at all. Can you be compassionate? What is compassion to You?

You say loyal…

Has he filed yet?

Anger SC is soo part of this process…..embrace it, feel it and then let it go. Your thoughts and feelings may change when you do this.

God Bless,
Eric

[Queen_of_Swords]

“resignation”, “destitute”, “scrambling”, “carrying the full load”…these words/quotes are all self defeating if ya ask me

It's reality Eric. Nothing more. Honor, pride, empowered...no I don't feel that. I am 49 years old, and I was a homeschooling, full time mother for many years. You do the employment possibilities on that Eric.
It's just a duty I owe. I have no doubt that I can do what is required of me, at least so we survive.

Now you say you are not angry…allow me to explain why I (from my perspective) saw anger….
You are not angry because he can’t see that you are a good friend?
You are not angry because he is not your friend even though you love him and have done all of…..
This ^^^^ work? You’re not angry that he cannot see it?

No I just feel disappointment,sadness and grief.

And you are not angry that he does not see your character or see that you have accepted that you still need to be more compassionate?
And YOUR not angry because you have had to deal with the unexpected AND you are not coping with it well.

I don't understand how he can "know" my character and still reject me as utterly as he has. I don't think that understanding will come. I'm bewildered,uncomprehending, disbelieving.
Intellectually I know it's more about him than me.

Chit….I was really pissed when I tried to recover a marriage and was unable. Really pissed. I guess you are not though.

No, what I am is ineffably sad, grieving, disillusioned, and feeling desolate.

Funny…I used to say to myself that I wanted to be “victorious” when I was really angry. When the anger began to subside…my words changed. “Fair” become more of my focus. No one wins here SC. IMO, only people that are ANGRY feel they need to win. My STBXW wants to WIN….know why? ‘Cause she is angry with herself.

That's you Eric. When I use the word victorious I mean successful. I thought I could be a success at DB'ing our marriage. Successful as restoring what was lost.
There is no win here.

And WHEN I realized that OM was more important than me (at least in her eyes but not mine)…when I FELT that my self respect, esteem, everything about myself was thrown to the floor and stomped on…well I was not just angry….I WAS IN A RAGE…but maybe that is me SC…maybe you are NOT angry.

No because I realise I did that to myself. Granted his behaviour started that tearing down of self.
Silence and refusal to resolve conflict is abusive to a woman. I also know and have compassion for the fact that is how he learned to deal with his own abuse as child. He knows no other way to engage.

SC, my only point is that in order for you to go through this…anger will need to be felt. You can mask it, tuck it away, ignore it, do whatever it is you feel you need to do to NOT feel it BUT FEEL it you must.

Oh I have been angry. Furiously hot, I have acted on it too in reflex. Written the nasty texts, said hurtful words, tried to make him fell as badly as I do.
I've taken my anger to the dojo, tried to burn it out in hard physical exertion. In self abusive behaviours, in punishing myself.

Now I have learned to get under it and address and understand the underlying source of it, reassuring myself daily I am worthy, worthwhile and a person of value. Taking care of me the best way I can.

So Eric..now what?

Honest – that is good. Can you be totally honest with yourself? If you can and you can look past the pain and hurt right now. Can you be…compassionate towards your H? Can you be thoughtful towards him? I am not suggesting that you become a doormat. Not at all. Can you be compassionate? What is compassion to You?

I believe I am compassionate to my STBX ( I won't call him my H. anymore, he's not, that's over and I realise he has not been that to me for a long time now.) I know he's hurting, confused, and really just trying to get through the day.

I have been flexible and accomodating. Pleasant and polite. I do my utmost to keep my fat mouth shut most of the time and stay away from R talk. Most times I succeed other times not.

Has he filed yet?

No, he has not filed yet. I have told him if he wants this divorce, I won't resist but I won't help either.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Journaling-
Felt much better last night and this morning.
Went out last night and had a few drinks with my sister. We had a long talk with her about my situation. I aksed for her help in dealing with some difficulty I've had regarding employment.
Have a couple plans of action to put in place now.
I discussed going dark with her. She thinks it's probably a good idea right now. She has been D and reconciled.
Her opinion is that my H. has lost little in leaving as things stand now, wtih me still being reliable, accomodating and friendly. I tend to agree. Except for seeing the children daily, he really hasn't lost a lot. Everything is just the way he wants it in his world. She had a lot of other things to say as well that I'm weighing and considering.

I'm not trying anymore.
Now I'm the one that's done.

Funny aside...he tried to call the kids last night several time but my phone was busy for a few hours.
So,he texted me to relay goodnight to the kids.

I've scheduled a counseling appointment for Thursday to talk about it with my DB coach, to figure out the best course of action and the finer details of going N/C.

Thank you all for your input on my thread and getting me through a very difficult and emotional time.

[Queen_of_Swords]

The latest weirdness.

STBX comes to pick up the kids. I didn't expect him, he usually tells me what his ETA is. Nothing tonight, fine whatever, I know he'll show up between 3:30 and 5PM.
So I hear the doorbell. I don't answer because I figure it's one of the kids' friends. I hear one of my kids yell Dad! Ok fine, I think and.... I don't care, I don't care, I don't care.

I don't get up and continue to fold laundry in another room.
He inches his way into the house. Pokes his head around the corner and says Hello, how are you? Fine I reply, and keep on folding laundry. " Are you going out tonight?" he asks. I say "Maybe, maybe not, don't know yet." He replies,"Oh well if you do can you let me know if you'll be around my area to pick up the kids, otherwise I'll drop them off at XXX time." "Fine I'll do that." I say.
I then get up to see our kids off and give them a hug. He steps in front of me and holds out a prepaid coffee card. I look at it puzzled. He says, " Oh it has about $40 on it. "
I say, "Don't you use it?" "No", he says. I said, "Well you can use it with the kids, they like _______." He says, "Treat them, then, you keep the card."

I say thanks and pocket the card. I say goodbye, have a nice evening and shut the door after them.

WTH is going on?

[Walking]

Hey Scylla

- what's going on? Well, sometimes we just have to trust that those little signs from the universe tell us that we're on the right track.

Don't underestimate the extent that those closest to us can FEEL our energy. When you get your energy under control and truly DETACH from your H and the situation ... he WILL feel that. It's why solutions based therapy and changing yourself works - because when we change - truly change, not fake it until we make it, but change the way we think about or feel about something - that makes the way others relate to us change.

I don't know why it works ... but it does.

Keep at it strong-woman. Thinking of you. ((v))

[Queen_of_Swords]

Update -Journal

Spoke to my DB counselor. I gave him the upshot of what I've written on this thread. He agrees that I sound like I'm ready to go dark on STBX.

He gave me two caveats:

1) I'm to continue texting him Good Morning 2-3 times a week, not cut it out completely. Counselor was suprised at the chatty responses I've been getting. He sees it as a net positive, so I'm to continue, just do it sporadically.

2)I'm to watch myself that I do not project an attitude that this is in some way a punitive action. If he senses in the least that it's to get back at him, it won't make a difference.

I'm going to have to develop a good response to any questions that going dark may bring up.

Maybe: " I am sorry, it hurts to see you. I need time."

Got me, I'll have to think about it for a while.
Suggestions are welcome!

Instead of repeating, " I don't care" to myself when he or the thought of him pops into my head, I've decided to change it to "Vaya con dios or Go with God."
It will be a reminder to myself that it's out of my hands and control.

[Walking]

Hey Scylla

You sound happy. I like it.

I think that point 2 is a really important one, I think the effect you are really trying to achieve is a gentle mystery rather than a big iron door clanging shut. You know.

Your "darkness" should really be about the fact that you are busy girl, you are GAL, you are reengaging in your world and in your life, you have other priorities, your living like a single woman. The real key for you - is that that needs to be your intention as well. You need to mean it! (wink)

I can't remember where I read it, but I read a little anecdote last week about a woman who was releasing co-dependent behaviour. She carried a little piece of lego around in her pocket and when she started thinking about what she could DO to get from point a to point b with her husband she fingered the little piece of plastic and said to herself "Lego and Let God."

Have a good day.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Your "darkness" should really be about the fact that you are busy girl, you are GAL, you are reengaging in your world and in your life, you have other priorities, your living like a single woman. The real key for you - is that that needs to be your intention as well. You need to mean it! (wink)

I mean it, and yes I am busy.
Once I get a job I won't have much time for even really pursuing my martial arts training anymore.

I Have also realized that I want someone that does love me unconditionally for who I am not for what I can do. I deserve no less than what I'm willing to give.

I'm not now 100% sure that STBX can do that or even if he likes me that much. That though is his problem, not mine anymore.