My Final Chapter

[KenF]

she's trying.

[Truegritter]

Why is that Gritter? Cause it shows intent? It shows she is not done? I've heard it all before.

She is/was angry with you. THAT is powerful emotion and drives people to do things that are hurtful, self-destructive, vindictive and _________ (fill in the blank)

It is the opposite of love IMO and is based in fear.

FEAR?

Think of this as water flowing. It takes the path of least resistance before it stops.

It takes courage to go against the current yes? You have done this.

Running away? Blaming you? Finding someone who doesn't make her feel that way? Deflecting her guilt? About you and your D?

Who knows?

Who knows what is going on in that mind of hers..............

Only she does. Her actions (not words) will give you more information. Easy to say you want to swim against the current. Harder to do it. And keep doing it.

When she says she is angry I would believe her.

As long as she is using her anger as a crutch then she is not there IMO. She is still floating downstream.

2 you have been on this rollercoaster before with her. What I am trying to say to you is

Stop watching her. Stop trying to figure her out. Let her do that.

When she spews at you now does any of it still sting? That is the only worth in having any of those convos if you still have not dealth with your own anger or issues.

If this is confusing to you just think what it is doing to your D.

Just LIVE.

If you can have these convo's with your W and you are still able to LIVE YOUR LIFE.

That is up to you. I couldn't do it.

I would need to create more distance. And that IS hard.

It is hard fought territory. Taking back control of your emotions. The distance. The detachment.

Don't give it up unless you know it is something you can trust.

Only you know what that is.

[ninelives]

2step

Havent slept much and you know my sitch but I will try and give you my 2cents to spend as you will.

From what I am hearing from my W and when she was angry. She told me that she didnt really mean all those things she said. She was just Angry and wanted to hurt me. Im not sure if thats true or not. And I know our wives are different. But sifting through the BS should not be your job.

As TG mentions, just move on with your life and when and IF she is ready to come back, you will know. By that time, you may not care.

I was very close yesterday 2step to not caring. I mean I was DONE after my confrontation with OM. A feeling like I never felt before. Total el finito. IT took something like the assault on her to bring me back.

Im not saying that you need something so dramatic. You know all this, Just be done. She isnt though , let her do the work to come back to you if that is what she wants. She needs to be held accountable now. Not punitive on your part, but she needs to do the lions share of the work now.

Again, YOU know all this 2step.

9

[MichelleLT]

2step talked to his XW for over 3 hours today, so I'd suspect he didn't go with my "simple response" suggestion.

LITB: LOL actually I tried. Did not work out like I thought, go figure. The less you want to talk the more they want to.

Which is exactly why NC is priceless. You have to give them space before they can miss you. It's one thing to let them initiate contact, it's taking it to a whole other level to avoid contact.

WASs usually have a double standard. When they don't want contact with you, it's fine. When they "need" to get in touch with you and you are unavailable, they get pissed. It's pretty funny.

I am going to lunch now. Need food while I write the rest of my response to you.

[25yearsmlc]

2step,

first, I'm glad she'll be seeing your d

I cannot see advantage to her not seeing your d, even if it's sporadic. Why? B/c having a part time step mom who says she cares,

is way better than having an AWOL biological mom AND an AWOL step mom "not allowed" contact...it's the lesser of 2 evils...


BUT what else has changed? Nothing.

You guys have had 3 hour talks on the phone, which you say isn't unusaul for your past AND

it leads to rehashing a lot, and old choreographed arguments...so, what's so new about any of this, that matters?


I don't see what the big deal is. There are no ACTIONS that suggest a recon is really on her mind and heart

and you are not as detached as you need to be to assess the situation well. IMO.

But when you are detached, sure seems to get her attention...I think she wants a decent r with you. Okay...that's nice. So

why do you need to "do" anything about this?

IF AND WHEN MORE ACTUALLY HAPPENS...THEN cross that bridge...

[MichelleLT]

Stupid work kept me busy after lunch. Okay, here goes:

The text did kind of bother me; actually it made me a little angry which is another reason not responding when I wanted to was so important. Regardless of how I feel I am not out to hurt her but also I do not want to get hurt in the process. I have to protect myself.

I have to differ with what was said before about anger being the opposite of love. You can love someone and be angry at them. In fact, if you didn't care about them at all, whatever was said or done wouldn't anger you so much. The opposite of love is apathy, not anger. Someone who argues with you is still involved emotionally. That's why the WAW thing surprises you guys so much, the arguing stops before the woman walks because she resigns herself to leaving and stops fighting for the M.

The fact that the things she is saying bother you and make you angry show that you are not detached. The fact that you couldn't go 2 days without responding to her shows you are not detached.

Time for her to work a little? Yes gritter. Time for her to do some work. The sad part is I don't know if it is too late. If the R with OM is what I think it is then it is pointless because I will NOT compromise my moral integrity for anynone. That is just me.

She misses your voice? So she says

Will she know she really wants it if you hand her what she wants on a silver platter with some blue cheese and celery? She prefers Ranch.

Under what circumstances do you risk that? I don't. I can't. I can't do what I have done twice in my life. I will die of a heartattack


She will surely test you along the way.

Yes she will. She will test that the changes are real. Over and over and over again.

A text telling me she misses my voice is just that. A text. Nothing more nothing less.

I will know when she flat out tells me just like she flat out told me she filed. I am in no mood for riddles or to stroke her fragile ego.

A text is just a text yes. Actions speak louder than words. Texting you is an action. Calling multiple times is an action. It shows that she is not as detached as she likes to think she is. Regardless of the content.

Here's the catch. She will never flat out tell you she wants back if she's not pretty damn sure of a positive response from you. Regardless of what you've said in the past, she won't necessarily believe that you will take her back.

2step, My heart goes out to you. I think you are putting into words an element of this experience that many of us are having.
I don't know what to say otherwise - communication is such an issue sometimes - you want to speak from the best in you, and yet when something like this happens - what to say?
Silence?
I'm sure there is an appropriate response that comes from the best in you. Give yourself the time to find it.

We always need to speak from the best of us. Despite what is touted about sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me, words do hurt. And they can never be taken back.

It is far better to bite your tongue than have to apologize later for what was said. The apology helps, but it never takes the words back.

So, a refresher. Always start statements with "I". "I think". "I feel." Never use "you" and especially "you never" and "you always". Those are guaranteed to get a rise out of someone and get you going in circles of half-R talk with no progress. At this point, there's no R to talk about. She packed and left and filed for D.

While I understand feeling the need to get things off your chest, HOW you say them is just as important as WHETHER you say them.

Country: I do have two kids at the house and I was in no rush to respond. I did eventually. You are right on all points. My balance comes between Anger/Love/and indifference. I want to avoid being punitive with my words and actions while at the same time keeping my personal integrity and morals. I hope that makes sense.

So, 3 hours of talk. Half of it half-R talk. A lot of rehashing of old stuff. A lot of venting, but not moving towards solutions. More preaching to her about how she should have tried harder and tried more things. Only a small chunk of it seemed to actually pertain to the reason for the call, your D, and nowhere in there does it seem a basic clear statement was made - I feel D needs consistency in her life. If you want to be in contact with her, you need to be in contact with her regularly and available to her. Otherwise, I feel it is best that you not get her hopes up.

The conversation didn't need to be 3 hours. While XW is in the anger phase, it probably will be best to limit contact anyways. Especially if the conversations turn nasty.

The best phrases you can have are, "I understand why you feel that way" (but only if you can say it sincerely), "I'm sorry you feel that way" (just because she feels that way doesn't mean you have to agree with her, and this does not mean you support her actions or agree with her, just that you are sorry she feels that way), and boundary setting phrases like, "I am sorry you feel that way but I cannot change the past. We can talk more when you are feeling better, but right now I need to go". Whatever reason you give, D needs me, etc. you don't actually have to spend an hour on the phone ranting at each other. You can convey that you are willing to talk and listen, but only if the conversation stays at least reasonably cordial.

[MichelleLT]

You guys have had 3 hour talks on the phone, which you say isn't unusual for your past AND

it leads to rehashing a lot, and old choreographed arguments...so, what's so new about any of this, that matters?

Yes! This is the pattern during your whole S and now D. It didn't stop the D from happening, so what's to lose? Pull back!

But when you are detached, sure seems to get her attention...I think she wants a decent r with you. Okay...

Yes, NC drove her nuts! She kept texting and calling until she got in touch with you. So, why not try this? Make her work for it! Make yourself less available. AND when you do finally pick up or respond, NO R TALK! Break the cycle 2step.

[Bworl]

She will never flat out tell you she wants back if she's not pretty damn sure of a positive response from you. Regardless of what you've said in the past, she won't necessarily believe that you will take her back.

Haven't read your many threads, just this one. I confess my lack of knowledge of your situation beyond this past month so that you understand what I do not understand.


That quote above is a really important thing to think about if there is even a sliver inside of you still hoping for a rebuilt marriage.


And, for what it's worth, I thought your ex was incredibly genuine in the 3 hour conversation that you transcribed (how do you do that by the way?).


I could feel her agony. I could feel the emptiness and the loss.


We deserve to feel abandoned and mistreated. But we also need to realize that sometimes people make decisions that seem right to them at the moment - hell, that maybe even seem absolutely necessary at the moment - not realizing how horrible it will eventually be.



And what's up with you and your mother? Your wife seemed to make it perfectly clear that a big part of her issue was with you and your relationship to Mom. I hope that's something you've been looking at.


Anyway, I'm speaking out of turn since I haven't been around for your entire story.


Just wanted to say how touched I was by the exchange between the two of you. She clearly loves you, and you just as clearly love her.


Those are theones that can always be fixed.


Blessings,

Bill

[2stepboogie]

but dont always have wisdom.

Hey 9 you don’t need a 3000 word post to have wisdom.

She isn’t though, let her do the work to come back to you if that is what she wants. She needs to be held accountable now. Not punitive on your part, but she needs to do the lion’s share of the work now.

Wisdom^^^^^

See what I mean?

first, I'm glad she'll be seeing your d
I cannot see advantage to her not seeing your d, even if it's sporadic. Why? B/c having a part time step mom who says she cares,
is way better than having an AWOL biological mom AND an AWOL step mom "not allowed" contact...it's the lesser of 2 evils

Well 25 I am torn on this and I will tell you why….

X called D on 4th of July and spoke to her for about 20 minutes. D was excited and had a good conversation as I was driving back from the Macy’s Firework show. Later that evening D talks with me for awhile.

D(daughter): Daddy I am sad and lonely. I feel like crying

M: Why?

D: I don’t know

We spoke for a little while about stuff just stuff

D: Why is X calling all of a sudden? Do you think she cares about me?

M: I think she does.

D: So why did she not call before?

M: you know sweetie I don’t know.

D: Are you sad?

M: I am sad when your sad

D: I mean are you sad X left? Did you cry when she left?

M: I was sad and yes sometimes I did but in the end I was happy because I got you

D: Well daddy don’t be sad. If we love X then we should be happy for X even if she leaves. IF you love someone you let them go so that they can be happy even if it means they are not with you. I do love X and I do miss her.

M: Those are very wise words and you are right

X: So when are you going to find a new wife? Can you find one that won’t leave this time?

M: Maybe I will go to Walmart and just buy one. What do you think?

The last part is an obvious attempt at me making light of a very serious conversation. So what is the risk 25? The risk is that my D develops in her mind an expectation that is unreal and will digress instead of continuing to heal. It is very easy for X to wreck havoc on our lives even still. That is why I am very much on the fence on this because I will be left to pick up the pieces when she returns. I know she will have a good time with X. I know X will treat her with love and kindness. It is not my fear that D will be mistreated, it is my fear that D will develop an attachment to X and be depressed all over again.

Of course like a babbling buffoon I backed myself in a corner with this and now I have to follow through because if I don’t my D will blame me as she did when X left. It has taken a lot of Xanax, reflection, and hard work to get D to a healthy state and I don’t want or need to reverse courses. She does not need a part time parent for that I will get her enrolled in the big brother big sister program.

I don't see what the big deal is. There are no ACTIONS that suggest a recon is really on her mind and heart

Really there is no big deal. The only thing that stood out to me in this convo was her reasoning behind the whole thing.

X: I was scared, I was stubborn, and I did not see a way out.

Those were revealing but recon?? Not even on my radar.

The fact that the things she is saying bother you and make you angry show that you are not detached. The fact that you couldn't go 2 days without responding to her shows you are not detached.

I think I am much more detached than I give myself credit for but to borrow your own words, I am not apathetic so yes I do still have emotions. Complete detachment comes with time, A LOT of time.

She will never flat out tell you she wants back if she's not pretty damn sure of a positive response from you. Regardless of what you've said in the past, she won't necessarily believe that you will take her back.

That part in bold Michelle, you have just summed up my X with that statement. Anything I can explain is in that final phrase. She hinted to it when we spoke. When I mentioned the fireworks her response was very telling. See I teeter between not caring anymore and still being sucked in, for the most part I am happy where I am and I never know if she is doing a tempt check or sincerely misses my voice and wants to talk. At this point I really don’t see the reason for talking, if the result is that pain in my chest I felt for months then I don’t want to talk anymore. It was just starting to go away. I am not looking ahead, I am simply living one day at a time.

So, a refresher. Always start statements with "I". "I think". "I feel." Never use "you" and especially "you never" and "you always". Those are guaranteed to get a rise out of someone and get you going in circles of half-R talk with no progress. At this point, there's no R to talk about. She packed and left and filed for D.

While I understand feeling the need to get things off your chest, HOW you say them is just as important as WHETHER you say them

Instructions from Michelle, I love it. My projection of my thoughts is as important as the thought itself. I get that. It is so much easier to sit back and write this stuff out and it takes some serious patience and reflection not to ACT when on the phone or in the spur of the moment. I want to find peace, love, and contentment with my life. I think I am heading in that direction but like a person who has been in a wheelchair for months his legs still wiggle from time to time.

I feel D needs consistency in her life. If you want to be in contact with her, you need to be in contact with her regularly and available to her. Otherwise, I feel it is best that you not get her hopes up.

This conversation is coming. It has to.

The conversation didn't need to be 3 hours.

No Michelle it did not although some things were revealed that were not previously revealed among them is her thought process and I mean in honest terms. She is hurting very much and I feel for her but nothing I can do for her. Nothing……..

And, for what it's worth, I thought your ex was incredibly genuine in the 3 hour conversation that you transcribed

Bworl, you mean to say that you have not read ALL 12 threads?? I kid, welcome and your comments are appreciated. She has always been honest with her comments or at least for the most part.

I could feel her agony. I could feel the emptiness and the loss.

If you felt it in words I assure you it was way worse in person. Sigh

And what's up with you and your mother? Your wife seemed to make it perfectly clear that a big part of her issue was with you and your relationship to Mom. I hope that's something you've been looking at

This is a long story but I will condense it for you.

My mom and stepdad separated in 2006 shortly after X and I took custody of D, until this point my D had been staying with my mom until I had the funds to file for custody. Turns out I never really needed funds since my first W simply handed her over with no problems. When my mom and stepdad separated X asked my mom to stay with us, I was not in favor of this but she insisted.

She moved in. Well to make a long story short 4 years is a long time to live with your MIL. I completely understood this and was going to have my mom move out on several occasions but X talked me out of it, she says it is because she did not want me to resent her for it later. I believe she is telling me the truth about that sentiment. I let her stay. X felt my mom was taking over her life little by little and used it as a catalyst for leaving although it played a major role in our conflict it was NOT the sole reason for the breakdown.

X blames my mom for 80% of our problems and if I could go back and address one thing it would be this. I felt compelled to help my mother who is 70 and at the same time try and understand my X’s frustration. So long story short, X holds a lot of grudge towards my mom.

Hope that helps

Anyway, I'm speaking out of turn since I haven't been around for your entire story.

No turns needed Bworl, you are welcomed to chime in anytime, and actually I appreciate it.

Kids want ice cream so I am going to take them to the local scoop for some ice cream. Sigh is all I can say these days.

[2stepboogie]

She will never flat out tell you she wants back if she's not pretty damn sure of a positive response from you. Regardless of what you've said in the past, she won't necessarily believe that you will take her back.

That is the part I meant Michelle, sorry no edit button