Can I empathize with her mindset...? I don't know. I struggle with that. The reason why I struggle is, while I truly believe money does not buy happiness, I am well aware that ... ...... The point is, if one can provide enough value to earn a significant enough amount of money to live comfortably, with a certain level of "luxury" or "fun money", all excess can go towards contribution. Over and above what one will contribute with their own hands, directly on project.
I think that some smart people figured out that past $73000, money doesn't really get you any more happiness. Below that, it can be a factor. Probably in that having enough reduces a lot of other stressors. I'll have to take another look at that study...
Does your W feel resentment for being the one working? Does she feel like if you worked 'differently' that perhaps she could work less?
Does she ever say anything to indicate that the $$ issue is perhaps a source of resentment? Like, she wants you to tolerate the same rat race she is in? Does she feel its unfair that you have freedoms she doesn't?
In another post you talked about 'corporate commitment' and I thought that was an interesting way to put it. Is it possible that is a question of mindset and just not being able to see things differently for her?
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
Another nickel to SG for putting out there that LRT is NOT a long term (or permanent) effort. The main premise of LRT is to help remove ourselves from the drama / roller coaster so that we have a chance to ground and centre ourselves.
It might be time for me to pull back on some LRT like dark. I feel more stable and it might be time for me to shine a little light and see if I can manage more contact.
One reason why I feel that could be the case is, the last time my W and I sat and talked, while I was picking up the kids, it was very pleasant. I did not feel uncomfortable at all and my W appeared the same.
I will say that while I am very close to being full on, emotionally detached, I did have a few moments of anxiety as I thought about my W at a weekend concert she just attended, knowing that OM would have been there. It was short lived, and I am again feeling OK.
So that is something I will consider over the next couple weeks. Letting off on some of the LRT and seeing where that takes me.
Let's see if I'm really as detached as I think I am...
I feel like a selfish jerk, sometimes. When I catch myself appearing as though I won't try to earn a significant earning because I don't want my M to be based on money, that it MUST be based on LOVE alone.
Who am I hurting with that thought, that action? My kids, my W, my M, myself...
I rationalize it eventually, believing that with LOVE and PATIENCE, I will become a major if not primary wage earner in the household... if only my W were to just give it a chance... stick with the M and let me get to that place...
Choosing an EA (and possible PA)... to "opt out" of the M... even though we are not D at this time... I feel that's cruel and unusual punishment. Yet, if I do not change, then I can appreciate that my W is finally considering that I may NEVER change and so is pursuing a life without me.
I would just like to hear her words... not the "I really believed this was the one" (the financial opportunity) as though I had finally confirmed that I WAS a failure... but rather "I hoped that was the one, and it wasn't, but there will be other opportunities and I believe in you..."
Anyhow...
Interesting about the $73K (or similar) stat.
My W has not really indicated firmly that she would like me to be the primary wage earner. Although I could say there has been times when my W has said something to the effect that she does not know where her next career move might be, that she had wished she could have been around more for the kids, how she might consider a career change to be more with the kids and doing something new... and so perhaps there is some resentment there, that I have not stepped up to compensate so that she could more comfortably consider those options...
And I have sensed a bit of resentment, that I have that perceived "freedom". Yes, it is a freedom, but swords generally come with two edges. Being able to do what I want, when I want, is freedom. But when I exercise that freedom, I am not earning money... and then I have to work hard to try to catch up.
Regarding "corporate commitment", there is certainly a sense of who I am. My upbringing and beliefs. A certain negativity, to some degree. I have to admit that, given the "small business" mentality and lifestyle I have lived for most of my life, I am now at a point where I am more receptive to corporate life. That there is certainly value to be part of the corporate machine.
I have the fortune to be at a place I am, that I can consider a full career (20 years) before I would consider semi-retirement again. For that reason, I am not opposed to going in that direction. I'm looking seriously at all my options at this time.
So just one last quick note for this morning. Have to go out and take on the day. It's not Independence Day here in Canada (but wish all the southern provinces a great day!)
In stepping out of LRT, I am going to "act as if"... I am not sure that I want to save my M. And that's from the perspective that I have a choice. If the opportunity came up to R, would I...?
So I am going to leave LRT as though the hammer has fallen, the last nail is in the coffin, the fat lady has sung... and I will be D and I will be single... because that is how it seems to me... right now...
And in being that person, I can have a civil relationship with my stbx in a way that is healthy for my kids. And I can create the future for me, my kids, and some future R that will be better than what I could have created in the past, before reality sank in and I've done the work I have over the past year.
I feel like a selfish jerk, sometimes. When I catch myself appearing as though I won't try to earn a significant earning because I don't want my M to be based on money, that it MUST be based on LOVE alone.
Are your really being selfish? I guess there is a difference between contributing $ to the household and having a marriage based on it. I mean, we all have to survive.
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Choosing an EA (and possible PA)... to "opt out" of the M... even though we are not D at this time... I feel that's cruel and unusual punishment. Yet, if I do not change, then I can appreciate that my W is finally considering that I may NEVER change and so is pursuing a life without me.
I think that is undesirable, but people do it all the time. It doesn't make them right, but I guess it helps to know that its a common path of illogical thinking.
This is a tough one - you have a lot of reasons for doing what you do that are somewhat philosophical and possess validity. Is there any middle ground?
I mean, you find it offensive that $$ is such a factor for your W, but you didn't opt to leave the marriage. So, can she be flexible on this at all? If she can't - why not? Is it so integral to her sense of self that to be flexible would cost her something greater than money?
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I would just like to hear her words... not the "I really believed this was the one" (the financial opportunity) as though I had finally confirmed that I WAS a failure... but rather "I hoped that was the one, and it wasn't, but there will be other opportunities and I believe in you..."
Yeah - have you ever read "Mindset" by Carol Dweck? It sounds like your wife has a very fixed mindset about this kind of stuff. At least w/ you/others. I can only imagine how frustrating those words must have been for you - I'm sure tht some of her perspective is informed by your actions/words but it sounds like she has her own thing going on that is also making it hard to communicate/collaborate.
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
I have begun to plan out certain goals for my new life. Back to basics, as it were. Back to the time when we first move out on our own, and have basic financial needs for rent, food, etc...
I will live within my means and I will continue to work on my financial freedom as I take care of myself and my kids as needed.
Rather than worrying about it now, I will simply deal with my Love / Money issue in the future, if it creeps up in me again. The nice thing is, now that it is more in my conscious mind, I can do something about it if necessary.
I recognize in myself, that I am the one who feels that money is so important to her. Whether it is to her or not, is not my problem. You are correct. I did not choose to leave the M and regardless of my love/money issue, I was becoming more successful at providing financially for the family.
Yes, my W said to me that "Love is not enough". What she DID NOT say, was that money, or financial security was more important than love. I only inferred that in her comment. It COULD BE her truth. Or it could be something more benign as, "Money has a role in M and I have the need to feel financially secure, therefore while I do not feel that money is love, money is important for me and I can love you all I want, but if I do not feel secure, love is not enough. I need to feel secure, as well."
And I can't mind read, so whatever I am feeling about my W and love/money is MY feelings.
The only facts here are, my W says "ILYBINILWY", "Love is not enough" and further, my W is the one who left the M to follow some path and journey that she felt she needed to go on, without me.
That being said... the only thing I can do is return to being the person I was prior to my slip into the negative behaviours that grew in me, and grow to be a better man. For myself, for my children and for any future R I become involved in.
I'm sure there's more. Those are what I can think of, right now.
+ If you're upset--what do you want your partner to do? to say?
- I would like my W to empathize with me. I would like her to validate my feelings. I would like her to let me know that she loves me and that everything will be fine. She once told me that she "believed in me". That meant so much to me.
+ If you're excited--what do you want from your spouse?
- I want her to be excited WITH me. I would like her to be interested in what I was excited about. I would like her to be proud of me, if I was excited about an accomplishment that I helped create.
+ What is a loving expression to your spouse?
- I believe that touch and empathy are loving expressions to my W. When she talks about something she is passionate about, I believe she appreciates when I listen to her, that I validate her feelings, and that I am close to her. I know that my W is touch oriented and that she enjoys a massage (back rub, etc).
- No. Although I understand and believe that love is a choice, I also believe that love is not a choice we need to make on a day to day basis. Not consciously. We choose to love and then we simply... love...
We certainly can choose to act in more loving ways and we certainly can act in ways that are not loving. Moment by moment, it is good to check on whether we are behaving in loving ways to our spouses and do what we can to behave in loving ways or MORE loving ways as our relationships grow.
I do not know how someone "falls out of love", but there is certainly a point when a person questions their love and at that time, when they no longer feel there is "value" to further loving someone, they make a choice to stop loving.
"Love isn't just a feeling, it's a decision"
+ What are your feelings about the above statement?
- At one point, my W said to me, "Love is an action, not an emotion" (paraphrased). Those were actually not her words, it was in an email response to something I sent to her. I found out that her friend actually wrote the response.
It is irrelevant that she did not write the response, the point is that statement bothered me.
While I DO believe we SHOW love by action, I truly believe that love ABSOLUTELY IS a FEELING. We can CHOOSE to love, but we FEEL love once we make that choice.
Michele states:
"There is no magic or mystery here. What you decide to do on a daily basis will determine how much love you and your partner feel for each other. You both decide whether you're going to spend time together regularly or do your own thing, forgive each other or hold grudges, accept each others weaknesses or point finger of blame, apologize when in error or smugly stand your ground, be generous and giving or put your own needs first."
+ Do you find your feelings vascillating greatly?
- I do not think my feelings vacillate greatly, although I certainly understand that I may not recognize when I am not behaving in a loving way.
I could certainly be more conscious and aware of when I am not being loving.
+ What are you committed to?
- I am certainly committed to being more loving with my relationship. I recognize in myself that I will need to be more active in behaving in a loving way more often than I have in the past. Continue to do a better job.
+ What are your thoughts and feelings about this statement?
- I used to feel that affairs were absolutely "deal breakers" in any relationship. Especially in marriage.
I honestly have to say that while I can appreciate that an affair does not HAVE to ruin a marriage, I am still unsure whether I am prepared to forgive an affair.
I do understand that an affair is generally a symptom of an underlying problem in a marriage, I feel there are other, less destructive methods of acting out on frustrations in marriage.
"Most people survive infidelity and can, in fact, make their marriage stronger once they work through the issues infidelity has brought into their lives."
+ If you are in the situation where you or your spouse has had an affair or is having an affair, what are your thoughts about this statement. What were your biases before you were in this situation?
- I suppose I attract infidelity into my relationships. I have personally had situations where previous partners have had affairs. Those relationships were terminated either by me when I found out, or by the partner once the affair occurred, or shortly thereafter.
I used to think that I would never have a relationship with someone who already had a child. I married a person who had a child, so I can change my mind or my parameters regarding what I accept, regarding my partner's past. So I do suppose that I can actually forgive an affair and re-build a relationship or marriage with a partner who has an affair.
I am more prepared to forgive an affair at this time, since it is not just myself and the partner that a divorce would hurt in this situation. I would want to attempt to keep the marriage together and build a stronger relationship with my partner, because of the children.
+ What are the biases of the people closest to you and your spouse?
- Very few of my and my wife's friends appear highly offended by the affair, to the extent that they say it is an absolute deal breaker.
My wife's friends, or those closest to my wife (although I am unsure of her parents or siblings knowledge or opinions) appear fine with the affair. I would suspect it would be due to a rationalization that my wife lives as though the marriage is dissolved, for all intents and purposes.
My friends generally do not cite the affair as the last straw, so to speak. Although they do point to it as another reason to follow the path of divorce.
"Most people are happier in their second marriages because they've learned from their mistakes"
+ Have you heard this before?
- I have heard something similar, although not necessarily stated that way.
I have heard that statistically, second marriages end in divorce more often (as a percentile) than first marriages.
Michele states... "...60 percent of second marriages end in divorce..." and "...one of the reasons there are more divorces in second marriages is that people enter their second marriages with the bad relationship habits they learned the first time around."
+ Are you happy in your work?
- My contentment at my job or in my work has varied. Most recently, I had not been happy with my work. In my new job since separation, I do feel happier. Most likely because I see it as a step towards financial security now that I am living on my own. It's a bit of a rationalization, but I do actually enjoy my work for the most part.
+ Do you feel fulfilled? Are you happy with yourself physically, mentally, spiritually and emotionally?
- I had felt fulfilled for the most part in my marriage and my life, in general. Although for the past number of years prior to the breakdown of my marriage, my entire feeling of contentment in life had begun to wane significantly.
+ How does this affect how you feel in your relationship?
- I have no doubt that the stresses that I felt in work, my loss of income due to competing family commitments, and my overall sense of well being contributed greatly to a negative feeling around my relationship with my wife.
+ How do you think the same things are affecting your partner's feelings and expectations in your relationship?
- I would expect that the same things, or at the very least the affects those things had on me and my feelings around my marriage had a large impact on how my wife began to feel about me.
While she likely had her own stresses in life which contributed to her own loss of fulfillment in her own life. I would suspect that both our feelings around our lives contributed to each of us feeling less connected or committed to each other and to our marriage.
NB: Michele's thoughts on pages 57 and 58 are really worth reading over again from time to time and applying to your life and relationship.
