I'm not new to these forums. I was here about 4 years ago, maybe longer (under a different username). I've read the book and have a lot of the materials. I'll be starting it again.
DB'ing has done me well.
The bomb for me was actually 7 years ago. I fumbled around for a long time before finding DB. Had a horrendous counseling experience. The therapist was going through divorce herself and was convinced it was the only way. My wife agrees totally how damaging it was.
Anyway we both made incredible changes over the last several years. We are both different people. Far better, far more positive.
In Dec '09 she put her ring back on and apologized. Said we had much more to do but felt it was right to wear her wedding ring. It stayed on up until 6 months ago or so.
As with many in this economy we've had a rough time. We've worked all our waking hours to keep our business alive. It has been draining and seemingly with no end. But we have accomplished a lot. But that doesn't make it less difficult.
She started sleeping on the couch at the beginning of the year. Many excuses for doing so. Poison oak, sick etc. But finally it came to a discussion.
She said everything was perfect except a tiny feeling of something being wrong. We're best friends. She thinks I'm great, yada yada. But she has always talked about not being ready for marriage (We married 13 years ago at 30). Said she's always had a feeling. Just something in the back of her head that something was wrong and she couldn't put her finger on it. She doesn't know anymore than that.
So we discussed separating on the spot and she moved out that night. I was cool about it. Didn't make any of the big mistakes.
I asked "If you could wave a magic wand and make it right would you?"
She said of course she would. Everything else was right and it sure would be easier since we are already married.
She's staying at a friends. We work together and if we have any time we spend it together. she just goes to her friends to sleep. She kisses me when she sees me in the morning and several times during the day.
Yeah doesn't sound typical I'm thinking. We do love each other and she has even said it a few times in discussion lately.
We have not had sex in nearly 7 years. It's been extremely difficult since we both had strong drives before we married. But the sex quickly dwindled immediately after marriage.
A couple of things to think about.
She seems to have a problem with marriage itself. I know she likes being married to me but the concept itself. A percieved control thing maybe.
I wanted kids, she didn't. When we married we agreed to give it 5 years and see what we thought then. Just before the bomb she asked me if I would be ok with adopting. I said I wanted my own and the bomb came a few weeks later.
When we were dating in our 20's we had an on again off again relationship. She always seemed to enjoy coming around and stealing me away from another girl. Maybe coincidence but I don't think so. Every time we got back together I was seeing someone else and she was able to slip in and steal me away.
She even said something once 20 years ago that has always stuck with me. She said I'd end up marrying some nice girl and she's be my mistress. She was drunk when she said it but I think there may be something to it. She doesn't exhibit anything that would make me think she acts on any of that or even know it exists but I wonder about it lately.
I db'd pretty well last week but I haven't done as well this week so far. Other things going on have made it tough. But I'll try better tomorrow.
So is my situation puzzling? It is to me. Hence my username.
I know not to expect to many replies in this forum. I know newcomers is the place for that. But I'm also not in a place where I need that. I know the answers are in me and no one else can understand us and what we've been through.
I've had lot's of theories as to why we are where we are but I think the reality is just that our married years have been so difficult. I can't begin to explain what we have been through but suffice it to say I can't imagine anyone but my wife sticking with me through the trials of the last decade. I told her that the other day and she said she knew that. She also said that maybe that's what her role was. That's the reason we were together. I didn't like that much but whatever.
So we haven't had much fun. Always stressed out. We handle stress extremely well and it's amazing that people think we are younger than we are. We're aging well and we're both amazed at that. We did a lot of things to handle the stress and we have done well in that regard.
So I guess this whole thing could be summarized in a couple sentences. We haven't had much fun in our lives. It's just work work work.
Sunday night we went to a dinner. The couple next to us said they work every waking hour. My wife mentioned it to me on the ride home. I had heard it to. They were about 10 years older than us. I'm thinking it freaked her out. It did me. She asked "How old do you think they are?".
We've tried to take time off and do things but it's difficult to enjoy time off if your business is teetering on the edge and that one project could be the difference.
Hopefully that all changes soon. We've hoped that for a long time.
So we had another hard working day today. Worked a project this morning and got in with minutes to spare to open up our main business. Pretty exhausting. Maybe a 13 hour day or so. Pretty normal.
We had dinner together as usual. she did most of the cooking which is something she's been trying to do to make things easier. I did all the cooking previously.
Anyway. Nice dinner. Kiss and a hug good bye. Like nothing is wrong. Like everything is perfect. Except...
This morning I realized she had changed her facebook status from married to no status at all. Got to me a bit and I'm feeling pretty angry.
Yesterday was a tough day in business. Really tough. A few years back we lost a partnership that brought us in a lot of money. Much of this was due to emotional crap that my wife was involved with. Yesterday seemed like the start of a replay of that. In a way it was but hopefully the outcome is not the same. Very tough.
Cake and Eat it Too!
So here I am back in her cake and eat it too scenario.
She comes into work and kisses me. Kisses me when she leaves. We have dinner together and a little wine. Like nothing is wrong. Then she goes.
Is this just a manipulation. Am I not seeing something here. Or does she really think she can have her cake and eat it too.
Several times in the past she has told me she sees us as continuing on as business partners. Continuing on as best friends. Maybe having houses next to each other on the beach. But not together.
She says we have a marriage that is 99% perfect. It's just that nagging feeling that something is wrong. A feeling she says she's tried to bury.
Somebody jump in here if you would. I would like an opinion to knock me out of my blindness.
Yes it does seem ridiculous. I know the first time around I was blind. I thought we had a great relationship back then but there was a lot wrong. We both had a lot of issues. We worked through them and came out the end much better people and much wiser for sure.
But this time I think I have a much better grasp on reality and the reality is we're pretty darn good together. Except for the lack in the bedroom.
180's yeah. Right from the first moment. When she suggested separation I didn't try to solve a thing. She expected me to for sure. Just agreed and in a sense pushed her out the door.
That night I took the dogs for a late night jog to the lake. Enjoyed it a lot actually. Did the same for nights 2 & 3. Something strange happened that first night. I actually wanted to take care of myself. Previously when she went out of town I would eat fast food, etc. Even a couple days on fast food wreaks havoc with me. Now I don't want it at all. She talked to me about it a few days in. Asked that I eat healthy even though she was gone. I didn't say anything but I knew inside there was a change. Day 4 she stayed for dinner so I didn't get my jog. Day 5678 we worked ourselves into the ground. We had a big job to do. It was hard work and left us exhausted for the rest of the week. So I haven't been able to keep up the jogging but will start again.
Today something came out.
We were at her parents. Just visiting with them. We're talking about health insurance and she blurts out.
"I don't know, ask him. I'm just his property"
It seemed very disconnected from the conversation and we all just looked at her trying to figure it out. Then she explained that her accountant had told her that in the eyes of the law or the IRS or something or rather that a wife is just a husbands property. Yes I know that stuff is still on the books somewhere but our relationship is in no way like that. We're partners and that's it.
This has come up in snide remarks a few times. It seems so unrelated to our reality. Not anything I can change because it doesn't exist.
Similar issues were the theme the first time around. Our counselor dug this womens lib theme. Constantly quoted Clarrissa Pinkola Estes. Our counselor was going through her own stuff at the time and in no way should have been counseling.
So this imaginary ancient concept of marriage seems to be a big issue. But I'm not really all that great at battling imagined concepts.
For the last oh seven years when she hugs me she puts one arm in between us. As if to block physical contact. She kisses me nicely most of the time but hugs are cold. She pushes me away.
This week and especially tonight she wraps both arms around me and pulls me in very tight and stays there for awhile. It's very different than it has been for years.
So one more 180. On the day she decided to move out she said all we ever talk about is business. It's true for the most part.
So I don't talk business with her anymore. Not much anyway. Makes for a lot of quite time but that's ok. I'll have to GAL more so there's something to talk about I guess.
Since we can read each others minds most of the time, talking sometimes seems a little pointless.
Interesting she would say this. She justified it after, gave her reason for saying it... still... she said it because she somehow believes it, I would suspect...
Had she not explained it, what would your "more of the same" behaviour / comments have been? Possibly important, since she may have let the comment stand, had her parents not been there. Waiting to see if your typical reaction would have surfaced to continue to justify her reason to not rec. You can plan in advance now, so you aren't caught off guard.
Do you think this is recurring? What would she be looking for as a response, do you think? If this is recurring, then there is probably something here that you can support her on, without being pushy.
Originally Posted By: Huh
...she puts one arm in between us. As if to block physical contact...
...tonight she wraps both arms around me and pulls me in very tight and stays there for awhile...
I'd say this is significant, although... this would be a 180 for her. How do you feel you could respond?
In her past hugging, how did you respond? Did you pull her in closer? Try to remove her arm? Or did you just give a half hearted hug? What would be a 180 for you in that situation?
Now that she is hugging you differently, how are you hugging her? The same as you did before or different?
Originally Posted By: Huh
...So I don't talk business with her anymore. Not much anyway. Makes for a lot of quite time but that's ok.
Do you feel the quiet time helps, hurts, or has no affect to your R?
What could you do differently than leaving quiet air? Could you introduce new subjects? Anything that you know of that interests her? Hobbies? Family? That you could talk to her about.
Or let me say that differently... any topic that you could introduce that she might be willing and excited to talk about, that you could just sit and listen to her talk about...?
Didn't feel anything. It's been a pretty common remark
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She justified it
Only justified it because it was foreign to her parents. So yes, somewhere in there and for some reason she believes it.
I guess when I think about it it's related in a way to this. She comes from a large family, mostly girls. Her favorite sister is self made. She's a money magnet but in my opinion sold herself to get there. Another sister which is not so well liked married into it. She's lazy and arrogant. My wife in a way glorifies one and disdains the other. She seems to have a need to make it on her own. As if making it together would be unsatisfactory.
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Had she not explained it, what would your "more of the same" behaviour / comments have been? Possibly important, since she may have let the comment stand, had[quote] her parents not been there. Waiting to see if your typical reaction would have surfaced to continue to justify her reason to not rec. You can plan in advance now, so you aren't caught off guard.
To ignore it. since it doesn't fit into what I see as real I've never had a response. I'm stumped as to what one should be and never considered that there should be a response at all.
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Do you think this is recurring? What would she be looking for as a response, do you think? If this is recurring, then there is probably something here that you can support her on, without being pushy.
Yes recurring. Again. I'm stumped. It's not reality so I don't know how to respond to something imagined.
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I'd say this is significant, although... this would be a 180 for her. How do you feel you could respond?
This has stopped. Kissing is off and on. Sometimes good sometimes not. I try very hard not to pursue and am mostly successful.
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Do you feel the quiet time helps, hurts, or has no affect to your R?
For a time it helped. Probably just as a sign that things were different. It gets filled in now. Sometimes with business. Sometimes other things, and sometimes she listens to the things that I like to talk about. which are really boring and dry to most but exciting to me. She listens and tries to understand them whereas she previously was frustrated with having to listen to it.
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Or let me say that differently... any topic that you could introduce that she might be willing and excited to talk about, that you could just sit and listen to her talk about...?
Yes I do that. Also have done some other things out of character lately.
She hangs out with me. Comes to my office to hang out. We still have all our meals together and she only goes away late after dinner.
Today she said she's be hanging out with a friend for the weekend. and spending the third weekend this month with her sister. I acted as if it was no big deal and really it wasn't. Offering no objection to anything. Other than I did mention that her commute was now costing us $600 per month.
She gave me a nice kiss on the way out tonight.
I am keeping up on my jogging and making some changes in myself. So I guess I'm doing well.
Did take my ring off. I'm acting for the most part as if it's over.
I really realized how long I've been pursuing her. The relationship has always been this. What's happening now is not new. It happened even in our 20's many times. Only when I got frustrated and walked away did she come back each and every time.
I don't plan on doing that anymore. It's not fun. Either it gets fixed this time around or it breaks for good.
Maybe I'm stuck on the "property" thing. Although it is recurring...
Since your "more of the same" would be ignoring it. I'd wonder how things would be different if you asked her to explain what that meant, to her...
I get that she explained it as something that came up in conversation with her accountant. Who knows how he said it, or in what context. It does sound like her "take" on it was very negative. Certainly more than a simple, "is that not ridiculous that the law still reads that a woman is a man's property".
That's up to you, of course. But if you've never asked her, I suspect her answer (if she offered one) would be... interesting, to say the least. A little digging might reveal something much more deep and relevant for her...
Maybe part of why I'm stuck on this is because of how you describe her sisters. The one that is self made and the one that is married into financial success. ie. Your W likely sees the later as the husband's "property" (therefore the disdain) whereas the former is seen as a "freeman", so to speak...
I find it interesting that your W is showing interest in listening to and trying to understand things you feel are dry and boring. Any thoughts on why she might be doing that, now?
Also, do you know if your wife has noticed you have taken off your ring? If so, what was her reaction?
I do understand why you have taken it off (your reason and meaning), although I am wondering if you are really doing it for you, or if you did it to get a reaction out of your W... Just asking...
