O red I have no advice as I do the same thing. I think we just want answers and want to move ahead and start working on our marriages together. It stinks.
every few weeks I have start over with my NC. I think today is start of day 5! Hang in there.
will reply later today after I read up on your sitch and handle my RL
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
hmmm You were doing what worked and then...you stopped doing what worked...why?
Why sabotage what was working? Maybe you want to punish him? Or maybe you don't want to be married to him after all?
Or maybe, you just have not changed all that much...
let's look at some lost opportunities and learn from them and see what did work...
a month ago you wrote:
I'm not scared anymore. I know I'll b ok. In fact better than ok. Is it normal to feel this way? If u had asked me two months ago if I wanted my H and M back, I would have not have hesitated. Of course i do! Today is a different story. The truth is I don't know. I haven't felt loved by H for a long time so this empty feeling that I have right now isn't that different.
The truth is he never gave me the time of day during the week. He was too busy with his work or the gym. Then on weekends it was the same story. So the fog seems to have cleared for me. My marriage wasn't that great. H wasn't that great and probably in turn neither was I.
So where does that leave me? Ive realised i need to create my own happiness. No more codependency for me. Heres what I plan to do:
- concentrate on being the best mum I can be. have heaps of fun/expeiences with S3 - concentrate on my work and do a course - lead a healthy life. Continue going to the gym and not eat junk food. - spend more time with friends and enjoy life - go on a holiday with just S3
The show must and will go on. How will it end? Who knows? It's only just begun.... ___ You sounded so healthy here! What happened to THAT Plan? Oh, it began to work...??
Another good plan you had: I'm not sure entirely what to do. So I've decided to follow what I know the right thing to do in this situation is: to live my life like H is never coming back. And u know what I'm ok with that.
what happened to that plan?
Here's some things your MIL said to you and your replies... - I'm not saying who's wrong or right. To which I replied, well I have text messages to prove I'm right.
Red, do you want to be "right" or happy? Why do you think it's smart to argue with her? What difference will it make TO HER if her son is 'wronger' than you? She wants him to be happy...
She also said:
- You know what H is like.... you should try to make it easier for him
SHE'S SAYING "KEEP THE ROAD HOME PAVED & SMOOTH AND YOU are arguing that??
or he'll run away if he feels it's too hard. Excusing his behaviour!
SHE IS NOT EXCUSING IT AT ALL. OMG.... SHE'S TRYING TO HELP YOU
- He "has every right to see S3 as much as he likes and you shouldn't control when or for how long." Again I was gobsmacked!
WHY ARE YOU 'GOBSMACKED" BY THIS?
SHE'S 100% RIGHT^^AND
SHE'S TRYING TO HELP YOU SEE THAT YOU ARE COMING ACROSS (ACCURATELY OR NOT) AS CONTROLLING. - The Wednesday nite outings are good for S3 to show positive parenting. I said it hurt to sit there knowing my husband is sleeping with OW. She said well if you're going to act like a hurt wife it's never going to work. OMG! I'm livid just livid!
To me, she's saying the same thing I've said to you, which is
"Lose the anger" b/c IT DOES NOT WORK!
June 11 you wrote that he said
then he told me that he wants to file for 50 per cent custody of S3 cos MIL said that they needed to spend more time together. I can't believe this! He does everything she tells him! The puppet master at her best! She's not even taking into account what's best for S3!
Are you taking into account what is best for s3? Really?
The fact that H is not a good father ATM.
So he's been AWOL? But he sees s3 on a regular basis. Is it possible you want to punish him for OW by withholding s3?
And btw, if he's AWOL from s3 and that bothers you, why aren't you thrilled he wants more time with s3?
So, you'd be happier if he wanted LESS TIME WITH S3?? Hmm
Something tells me he cannot win with you.
MIL doesn't see that. I know why she is doing this. It's because H lives a block away from her and now she can have more time with S3. Just another puppet to control! He'll no!
Well I guess you'll show HER! Wow, Way to manipulate time with the s3 to punish her and your h. Oh and btw, you are doing major mind reading (negatively of course) about her... super helpful...oh wait, no it isn't.
I cannot see how this approach helps YOU or your sitch in any way....and btw, it looks petty and mean, in court.
Stop making this a power struggle b/c you are hurting. Your pride is hurting your cause. A lot...and anger plays well with pride.
Later on, your h made several conciliatory comments to you...they may have been totally sincere or they may have merely been probes to see how hard you'd make it for him to come back... Then he said - "I havent ruled out reconciliations between us". I didn’t reply or react to this statement.
Well done. Way to hold your tongue.
Then H stated that he would like to buy an apartment close to where his new job might be. After which he asked would I consider moving there? I stated that if things were to change and we were on the right track I would consider it.
Stay general and vague about your conditions. He's still on the fence...you have no real leverage...yet. Don't overwhelm him with the mountains he'll have to climb to "earn you back"...remember you had a role in this too. Make sure you tell HIM that you own your role and that m to you from this day forward, could be different!!! I'd probably tell mil something like that too.
He looked happy to hear this. He went on for a while about what type of apartment we should have and that we should sell both our cars and get one new one and which school S3 could attend. To me it sounded like he wanted to start new. New job, new place, new car, new life. I’m not sure what to think of this?
Who cares? He's SAYING he wants a fresh new start and that sounds reasonable. The proof is in what he DOES to implement these wishes.
Another positive me thinks - inviting me to family functions. This is a few months away so we will see how things progress. No expectations, I said thanks for the invite I will consider it. I went home and felt at peace. I know it was a positive experience but that is what was. I realise things can change in a heart beat. I will still work on myself and focus on what I need to do and accomplish. - all sounds great at your end, so far...Oh, here it comes... I cannot have too many expectations. If however, I were to be honest with my self, thats the part that scares me the most. I am starting to get expectations and I dont want to. I need to slow my thoughts down and back the hell away...... ----
I stepped on something which I didn't recognize and I picked it up and saw that it was OWs corset/underwear. I wanted to vomit. I froze and felt completely paralysed
I felt so afraid. I knew they were still together but to see and hold the evidence was too much. I just wanted to get out of there.....but I couldn't. What was I going to say? I had no right to confront him. I knew and he knows I know that they are together. But it still hurt. It hurt my husband was sleeping with OW. And in an apartment that we use to live in. And who knows maybe they live together. the same bed that my S3 sleeps in when he is there. It makes me ill. In fact when I got to Hs apartment yesterday S3 was taking his nap and I went in to check on him. He looked so peaceful in that bed. It really makes me sick.
How do those last 2 sentences make you feel about you, when you read them? As I sat there on his floor I realised I was faced with two choices: 1. Get mad and confront him 2. Get up and act as if
"You might want to reconsider the LRT only b/c "No family time" sounds punitive, AND couldn't you argue that time together as a family, if it were fun, warm, loving, kind and forgiving, would demonstrate to him that you CAN forgive and that the Road Home is Paved and Smooth...??".
Yeah, I think that's my quote actually. But I'm not saying the LRT is what you need now.
Unless it's for you. Since you have trouble lately keeping your thoughts to yourself, maybe no contact is the only avenue you have. That's too bad but it might be realistic.
He also said I was welcome to sleep over his apartment on the Saturday nite. Again I said thanks but I'm sleeping over a friends place. Looks like H is wanting to spend more time together but I'm going to make sure that it's not too much too soon. Don't want to overwhelm him or me for that matter. Besides he is still with OW.
H has said he has not ruled out reconciling, he has talked about us living together and buying a new car, he wants us to come to BILs engagement party, he wants us to join him interstate for the weekend, he wants me to sleep over at his apartment. Yet in saying all of this he is still with OW.
So is the OW a dealbreaker for you or are you trying to punish him? I mean you sure do bring her up a lot...like every time your h says a kind word to you or if he brings up a future together with you and s3...
THEN at those potentially loving moments, you bring her up AGAIN...
to remind him of how wrong he is and how hard it's going to be for you to forgive and how hard it's going to be for him to be happy with you....
b/c you are having such a hard time forgiving or letting it go...
I find most men (maybe women too, but I'm biased) are like swinging monkeys and cannot let go of one vine unless they have another one already in hand.
You guys then had these texts messages....
HH: I hope that we work this out Red, like you wrote in your letter Me: Is that what you want? H: Yes. I think that getting to know each other again whilst giving each other space is good? Me: I like the getting to know each other idea. I couldn't however, consider being with you if you are still with another person
OMG Not the OW again! The man is on the fence and you are pushing him...OFF the to the other side. You are not in a position to make conditions YET.... LATER, YES...NOT NOW....NOT WHEN HE'S STILL ON THE FENCE... H: I understand that. I am presently extracating myself from a difficult situation and this is the main reason I am leaving X (current work place) Me: I understand. And I'm glad you read my letter. I meant what I said H: Hopefully time will heal us. I just pray that by the time I have sorted out my shyte Johny (personal trainer at gym) hasn't snapped you up Me: Johny is the least of your problems . I trust you'll get your shyte sorted. I've never lost faith in you.
Nice ending though.
THEN THIS "R TALK" HAPPENED...AGAIN...
Whilst at the park H got all teary. I asked him what was wrong. After a while he said he missed his family. I said we missed him too. Anyway we got talking a bit. And I asked whether he wanted to talk some more. So we went back to his place. And things went from bad to worse.
After S3 went to bed I started a R talk. I just wouldn't shut up. I kept pushing. I kept asking. I wouldn't stop. I told him I knew everything. And that he needed to make a decision. I royally effed up! THEN you laid out all the conditions YOU would require and went on and on about how much he has hurt you and s3 (as if s3 cares about OW at this point. Sorry but at most your son misses daddy time. So if h gets 50% custody I guess that will make it right...seriously, you have to let go of OW. I would act as if she did not exist. But I would not move back in with h until she was gone. I would not even say it out loud...it's obvious.
I told him that I couldn't see him any longer. That there would be no more family dinners/outings. In fact we couldn't be friends. I said he had hurt me and he was continuing to do so by choosing OW over me and his family.
though he tried to conceal it. I am so hurt.
So you want it to be over right? You want to end it now b/c you cannot forgive him...
Right? Oh wait, that's NOT what you meant?
Oh, too bad b/c that's what I took from your talk.
You punished him for hurting you...and now it's all over....
After I left he sent the following text: I'm really sorry Red. I don't know anything at the moment. I am so confused. I didn't need to be pushed for an answer because I am not in position to answer anything at present.
Lucky for you, he thinks there's still a R to work on....and He says he doesn't need to be pushed. I believe him. Do you?
So, does that matter to you? Seriously, does it?
You have the right to say "fini!"
but don't say it's a DB method that didn't work...b/c this is NOT DBing...
Since you must have known at the time that you were hurting your cause I think you should look at the reasons for the sabotaging.
Were you merely lashing out in anger and impatience?
Or were you saying "i really don't want this m anyhow"? After all, less than a month ago it hit you that the m wasn't so great after all...
So, sounds as if you are confused too. why not tell your h THAT?
"I'm not sure I know what I want anymore either. Let's give each other some space" and then
you detach FOR REAL...
IF YOU CANNOT DETACH NOW,
WHEN YOU CAN SEE THAT IT MAY ACTUALLY HELP THE SITUATION
YOU NEVER WILL
and
YOU ARE EITHER COMPLETELY UNDISCIPLINED OR
YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT THIS...
You decide. It's your life.
I really do understand if you want to throw in the towel. There are good people here who cannot deal with an affair, period.
If you are one of them, so be it. So decide, b/c we can't decide for you.
You'll have to let go of your obsession about OW
IN ORDER TO BE HAPPY IN YOUR LIFE
WITH OR WITHOUT H....but that doesn't mean you have to be m to him.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Red, I think you should read and re-read all that 25 has told you. There are so many gems in that one post.
My situation has been going on for a long, long time and I stuffed up so many times but I finally realised I really had to ignore that ow existed particularly when H kept moving towards me and making steps towards reconnecting with me.
It's been a long, long journey. I looked and listened for evidence that the R with ow was 'on the rocks.' My gut told me that it wouldn't last but it seemed to go on and on even though they hardly seemed to see each other.
25 said, " I find most men (maybe women too, but I'm biased) are like swinging monkeys and cannot let go of one vine unless they have another one already in hand." This is certainly how it seemed in my case.
Now, I am in the very early stages of reconnection and there were times that I worried and fretted about ow's existence as H and I began to reconnect. And, so many people gave me their advice, invited or not......they told me I wasn't loving and respecting myself enough and I should be telling H to disappear until ow was gone, gone, gone.
And as we got closer I wished ow would be gone and then finally she was. Now I understand that there is email contact and my therapist has advised that I shouldn't give this too much attention and I should instead just focus on the positives and with time and when our R is more secure I can state my boundaries.
Maybe someone should start a thread on dealing with an affair.
I do not think we should lose sight of the fact that for someone to have an affair is an ugly hurtful and emotionally abusive thing to do, and for anyone normal it is a huge thing to get past. We need a lot of tenderness and help in this.
Yes, pride comes into it, and yes the desire to punish comes into it as well, but if we set aside these two responses/reactions, an affair is never the solution to either personal or relationship problems. It is never the fault of the person who is left. That is the abuser's perspective and sometimes we internalise this. An affair is a wholly inappropriate response to problems and an indicator of someone who is hugely emotionally immature.
We hurt when we are abused, and part of that is a very normal and healthy response: we need to be very careful how we deal with the abuse and the abuser. If you are in ay doubt about this please do read Frank Pittman's article on affairs. [available on the internet]
One of the things that disturbs me slightly about some recent posters on the boards is that this is not the first affair in the marriage. A serial adulterer is almost impossible to deal with - they have trampled a major boundary, 'repaired' the relationship and are stupid enough to do it again.
Let us not lose sight of the fact that actions have consequences: we can choose to forgive, but there is also cheap grace. If we value ourselves do we want a marriage/relationship at any cost, and price?? These are hard questions. I sense that you are torn between self respect [not the same thing as pride] and love, which is a hard place to be. You also need sympathy, not just a 2 x 4. You are dealing with the fall out from your husband's emotional stupidity, buttressed by his mother's support [which is not inevitable, and not helping anyone, she should just butt out imo. Validating bad behaviour is not the way to help people grow up]
I respect the advice you have been given, but I am not sure I agree with all of it. I do not think that a man who abandons his wife and child does have his child's best interest at heart, and I think you are correct to question this - not his love, but his commitment. As his mother you are the primary care giver. Many men who leave their families lose interest in their children [not all, but the stats are frightening. And it is not all about the mother being 'difficult'].
The question might equally be asked, is you husband asking for 50% custody to punish you? The child's best interests are paramount.
I hope this does not come across as unasked for advice. I always assume that when people post they are asking for input. My advice could be wrong!!
Sometimes 'rightness' is not about being right but being wise. Love is important, but tough love matters too, as anyone who has raised kids knows.
It means so much to me that you have taken time out of your day to write to me, me a complete stranger, on the other side of the world.
Your analysis and advise are so honest. It hurts to read them at times. But that's because it rings true.
Why did I stop what I was doing? Because I was mad. Because I was hurt. Because I was impatient. All things that do not bring me closer to what I want - my family back together.
Yes I was getting stronger. I could feel it, I could see it. So what happened? H and I had contact and well.....I started to concentrate on him. Him and OW. I took my focus off me. And worst of all I had expectations. Man the truth hurts.
Yes I have brought up OW waaaaayyyy to much. I am obssessed. I Google her everyday. I don't find anything new. I just look at her picture and get mad. And of course I hate myself afterwards. And I tell myself to stop but I keep doing it because I am hurt and really I am just hurting myself more. I feel completely embarrased and ashamed to tell you all that I do this. And yes I want to stop, and I will because it is so painfull. My self esteem has been bruised.
Is OW a deal breaker? No. I have forgiven, that won't change. I have love in my heart for my H. I realise it is me that needs to stop bringing her up. I won't from now onwards. I'm sure I'll know if they have broken it off.
Yes I effed up last night. I see two major faults: 1. Pushing R talk and not shutting up. And not listening to H that he no longer wished to talk about it.
2. Threatening H with no friendship. This is not what I want at all. I only did it to get a reaction.
I realise that I need to work on these for future talks with H.
You hit the nail on the head, I did sabotage in anger and impatience. It was stupid on my part but I don't think it's irreparable. My M wasn't perfect but I believe that it was great and could be greater. I think i said some stuff back then in anger. M can be great but it takes will work from both of us.
MIL rang tonite. She wanted to know how I was going. She told me shed spoken to H and he told her what happened. I told her my version. Her advice 25 is the same as yours. Keep the road home paved and smooth. Do not do LRT. H had been telling her that he was enjoying the last couple of weeks but now I did not want to be his friend. She again advised to keep doing the activities. Show him I can be fun. Do not talk about R or OW ever! She told me she met OW by accident. They were down the local mall and H and OW were there. At first he tried to avoid them but then they came over and said hi. H didn't introduce OW she did it herself. MIL said it was ackward and she said she did not think that OW was Hs type - said she looked slutty and older. She told H as much afterwards. H told her that he really enjoys being with her and is attracted to her. MIL said don't confuse being attracted to someone with enjoying the things you do with them. Most often you are attracted to qualities you yourself want. Apparently she is sporty. She pointed out that the activities they do together could be done with me, eg play squash. MIL still believes that H is not in love with OW and will break it off with her soon. But she did warn that it would take a while as she would cling. And that I could not help with any of this as it is something H has to do on his own. MIL invited me to BILs engagement party and even booked accomm for me. She said it would be great if I came.
She did say that she doesn't want me to try and rush things. She would even like H to be single and not rush straight into my arms after OW to figure things out. I said I agreed that he needed time by himself to sort out what was in his head and heart. She said he needs this time to figure out if this is trully what he wants as she does not want him to do this again. As it was hurting me and S3. I agreed.
So here's what I plan to do (as hard as it might be) - continue to see H - enjoy the moments but DETACH - focus on me and S3 - have patience - not obsess about OW. No more googling
Some of you may not agree with what I'm going to do but I do agree with 25 and MIL. Things have been improving. I sabotaged by being angry, impatient and focussing on OW. It's going to take alot of hard work but Im prepared to do that. I pray to GOD that i am doing the right thing.
W - 31 H - 33 Married - 7 years Together - 10 yrs Kids - S 3yrs old Separated - 27/03/11 OW - 10/04/11
Hi Dolphin, thanks for responding and im so happy that you are piercing your marriage back together.
I understand that I cannot worry about OW. She is not worth my time or effort. However, it does hurt when you hear your H tell you how much he cares for her and how wonderful and smart she is. But I guess thats why he is with her. It also hurt that she met my inlaws and has been hanging out with BIL and his fiance. I just have to get over this I suppose.
I guess the only thing that I wonder about is this: doesnt my H have to hit rock bottom before the fog lifts? How will that work if I am in contact with him and he continues to see OW? Wont he be having the best of both worlds? 25 I would love to hear your thoughts on this?
W - 31 H - 33 Married - 7 years Together - 10 yrs Kids - S 3yrs old Separated - 27/03/11 OW - 10/04/11
Hi Dolphin, thanks for responding and im so happy that you are piercing your marriage back together.
I understand that I cannot worry about OW. She is not worth my time or effort. However, it does hurt when you hear your H tell you how much he cares for her and how wonderful and smart she is.
Geez, he's amazing...how about you Tell him it's an inappropriate topic for discussion with YOU, and say it calmly but firmly.
It's a healthy boundary, and if you can't handle talking to him firmly without sounding like a beeyotch, then
ask him if maybe he doesn't think someone OTHER than his wife,
ought to be hearing about how great OW is...
I mean, is he doing it to hurt you? If not, he's really one clueless guy.
If there's any way you can laugh off his goofiness in this matter, do so. Sometimes humor is the way to make a point while diffusing tension.
But I guess thats why he is with her. It also hurt that she met my inlaws and has been hanging out with BIL and his fiance. Don't assume that meeting went well at all
OR that your h got any good feedback about it. On the contrary, sounds as if meeting his family did not help OW at all... (gee, too bad... )
I just have to get over this I suppose. OR see it more realistically, like I do!
I guess the only thing that I wonder about is this: doesnt my H have to hit rock bottom before the fog lifts?
No, and you need to Stop assuming there's an algorithm to this. There's no "have to hit rock bottom" at all, let alone first. There is no formula to this.
Frankly, it drives me nuts to see people reading books on MLC, thinking if they can label their spouses behavior or 'Condition," that it somehow increases the chances of a reconciliation.
I'm not aware of any empirical data that supports that.
Sometimes they wake up sooner, sometimes never, sometimes they hit rock bottom and find OW#2...and never come home. (Sorry!)
How will that work if I am in contact with him and he continues to see OW? Wont he be having the best of both worlds? You're in a weird sitch, frankly. Yes he may be cake eating, and at some point if this continues, he will be for sure. We can address that, then.
But since he is saying & doing (or was) more things indicating the desire to recon than to stay with OW,
and since his mom is on your side (do NOT antagonize that woman any more than you have. She's a real ally and you need to be grateful,and take the high road in this),
I'd say take the high road and give real DBIng a real chance.
In fact keep that in mind; you'll never regret taking the high road in this. It makes reconciliations, whenever they occur, far more likely.
And if you never reconcile, you're still a better woman than OW could ever be, and you'll be able to hold your head high.
There's a lot of value in that and what your son will learn from it. (And the regrets your h will no doubt have...)
I have 2 family members who divorced, only to remarry their former spouses years later. Yes, years...but the good news is that the 2nd time around was better.
25 I would love to hear your thoughts on this?
I think you are not doing enough "mystery" work.
You must GAL and that some of that must involve meeting new people.
A bit of a game? Why YES IT IS! So what?
I mean he's acting like a high schooler anyhow.
You want him to wonder..."Rednail is attractive...hey--she is ATTRACTING OM'S...what will happen if i keep di#)king around on her?"
As the saying goes, you want him to ask himself "why should I accept a sow's ear when I can have a silk purse?" You get this by Becoming a woman only a fool would leave.
If you can muster up some personal time where he watches s3 for you (or his mom does-but if she watches s3, don't play a game with HER...just state the activity and do it)
If someone else or h watches s3, be busy b/c you are taking a class or doing some GAL activity that you are happy but vague about
or meeting up with some "friends" (no need to volunteer they are female...If he asks, you can say "I THINK it's probably going to be MOSTLY female...")
and leave it at that. Be puzzled that he asks....basically you are
"busy going to exciting new places, meeting fascinating people and doing fun, interesting things"...in fact, put THAT on your voicemail
Be excited about your plans but muted around Him about it...a bit mysterious but not obvious.
Have your sister/friend call when you are with h and confirm the "event" and be a bit rushed to get off the phone. Tell her "H is here so I have to go...thanks for reminding me & see you there!"
Then be vaguely happy about the plans...
IF he presses you for details, then you tell him the truth (e.g., it's MOSTLY female THIS time...)
but be surprised that he would ask like this. After all, aren't you BOTH taking a time out?
Aren't YOU BOTH re-thinking your commitments???
Make sense?
You are trying to keep the road home, paved and smooth BUT you are also
implicitly showing him that he might lose you! AND
You have had an awakening...you now see that
life without H is acceptable too...fact is, you are excited about YOUR future NO Matter what HE is doing...
you want him to want to be part of YOUR FUN & loving and healthy World...you can mention the new words s3 says and the fun things you did, etc and
your personal growth things. You are Not saying "look, I'm changing" but "btw, work is going well b/c that interesting project is complete", OR
I'm looking forward to x and y" and
that's just you being excited about YOUR COOL LIFE
and contrast THAT with whatever he's doing...which isn't nearly as interesting or important...(obviously)
IF he SAYS he wants to reconcile (but you know he is still with OW--)
you can say
"H, let me know when you are free to reconcile
and THEN we can talk."
That way you are NOT mentioning OW...yet you are making your boundary clear.
But you then change the topic b/c really
what's there to say if he's still with OW?
No need to point it out. It's obvious!
Good luck Red, seriously...what a wacky situation to be in.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Hang in there.
) 