My Final Chapter

[2stepboogie]

2stepboogie
i'm from one of the Brunswicks.

i guess i am a vet now.

in the beginning i came here looking to save something that was already beyond saving. it ended and i left here, couldn't come back for a long time, the colors, the stories, everyone else going through this was too much, too many triggers bringing back bad memories. after a long while i came back and post on random threads, hoping my experience can help others. or help myself.

DB is said to help save a marriage. sometimes it does.

but what it really is about is saving yourself. doing what makes you a better person not for the WAS, but for your own mental health. making yourself more attractive, but for your own confidence. doing whats right, to prevent yourself from having to feel guilty in the future. being a better parent for your children.

if that saves your marriage, then great.

if not, then at the very least you've saved yourself. and thats no small thing.

but it really is all about you. everything you do should be about you.

Very cool Ken I am from Ft Lee/Palisades Park area in Bergen County.

I think most of us come here in the hopes of saving our M and or R and while some are able to do so sadly I believe a large number of people are not. There are two kinds of people that walk away from this whole experience. Those that become angry and resentful because they did not reach their desired "goal" and those that throughout the process realize that the true goal is to find themselves grow and learn their role in the whole thing so that they NEVER repeat it.

Changing yourself is perhaps one of the most difficult things you will ever do and while I don't believe you need to overhaul who you are you do need to become more aware.

Truthfully I have not changed a whole lot as a person but I have become more educated and aware of a R and M.

I was blind but now I see.

As for triggers?

I know what you mean there also.

They are still all around but I find myself reacting to them very differently now. Little things though that come out of nowhere sometimes have the most profound effects on me. Instead of a week of depression when I first see them now I am able to work my way out of them much quicker.

I am still much more fragile than I care to admit but I have a direction and that is a big load off my shouders.

I find that in helping others I really end up helping myself and I feel better but sometimes I do need a mental break and just walk away for a week or so.

Man still glad there is another DBer from NJ

This whole time I thought people in NJ either just did not get divorced or could care less when they did

[Denver_2010]

Telemark and BeTheMan - I'm happy that you guys found some usefulness in my last post here on 2Step's thread. BTW, sorry for the hijack 2Step... but I felt that I needed to respond to SBH's last post.

I just think that that type of thinking is contrary to why we are all here. And I think that it is dangerous advice to those who are new here.

It takes a lot of time to truly process what is happening with our situations. And we cannot properly respond or know what the best course of action is for each of US individually until we properly process.

It is waaaaayyyy to easy to look at things in these situations as being black and white... especially when an A is involved.

I have learned in my 7 months here that there is A LOT of gray.

I've also learned that acting out of anger, hurt or desperation is the wrong thing to do.

We all come here, not out of fear, but out of love for our Spouses. It is here and through our work here... that we learn how to love under the most difficult of circumstances.

And TRUST ME... all of this that I talk about has been as difficult for me, and on me, as it has been for anybody else. I have struggled and wanted to lash out at my W too... I've wanted to quit...

But I know at the end of the day, I will feel better about myself knowing that I left no stone unturned in trying to be a better man... and to save my M.

BITS
Denver

[25yearsmlc]

God knows this thread is going to close soon...

I also think most of SBH's admonitions are dangerous for newcomers and angry betrayed spouses. Still wanting to punish under the guise of "teaching the WAS a lesson" is counter to DBing.


2stp, you said
I think most of us come here in the hopes of saving our M and or R and while some are able to do so sadly I believe a large number of people are not. There are two kinds of people that walk away from this whole experience. Those that become angry and resentful because they did not reach their desired "goal" and those that throughout the process realize that the true goal is to find themselves grow and learn their role in the whole thing so that they NEVER repeat it.

Changing yourself is perhaps one of the most difficult things you will ever do and while I don't believe you need to overhaul who you are you do need to become more aware.

2step, This ^^^ rings so true for me. I was asleep in my m before the crisis hit. Now, I AM AWAKE...

Denver,

you wrote
"I have learned in my 7 months here that there is A LOT of gray.

I've also learned that acting out of anger, hurt or desperation is the wrong thing to do.

We all come here, not out of fear, but out of love for our Spouses. It is here and through our work here... that we learn how to love under the most difficult of circumstances.[/b]

And TRUST ME... all of this that I talk about has been as difficult for me, and on me, as it has been for anybody else.[b] I have struggled and wanted to lash out at my W too... I've wanted to quit...

But I know at the end of the day, I will feel better about myself knowing that I left no stone unturned in trying to be a better man... and to save my M."


and this is ^^^ pretty much why I told my MC what I told him. I said I did not want to quit and he asked about whether that was fear of dating or being alone and I said "no. I have no fear of that and in fact, it's an upside if we divorce"...

But morally I wanted to try and not to be a martyr...on the contrary.

I knew myself well enough to know, that

if I feel I lived a moral life, it will make ME HAPPIER knowing that.

I want to be able to look myself in the mirror when I'm 80 y/o and KNOW I did my true, bravest best to save the m.

I'd rather stick around a bit too long, than leave a bit too early.
I don't want my false pride or ego or anger to be a factor

There's a fine line, sometimes a shifting line, between self respect and pride and we ALL have to find it.

The only way to know this is with a brutal utter inner honesty, and that's a tough thing for most of us.

For me, it was the first time in years that I had to really dig deep and face some things I did NOT like in me.

I sometimes found myself rationalizing angry action by calling it something like SBH would, "consequences" and "why should I protect/enable?" etc...

and I struggled with that so much. I rationalize so well!

Dangerously well. But like I said,

now, I AM AWAKE and my awareness of my life

and all my relationships has, on the whole, been a huge blessing.

I feel more connected to the people in my life and LESS involved with unsupportive or unheatlhy people.

It's great to weed that out and have the best of the best in my life.

Yes, now I am awake.

Love this stuff and hate it all at the same time.

[kermitdfrog]

Hello 2step

I read your thread tonight and while reading it I was cheering for you and hoped for a happy ending. And as I read I got angry. What is wrong with these people? My husband filed for divorce in May and I am DBing my butt off, and although we have great positive experiences, he hasn't budged in his determination to end our marriage. (You can read my thread under My heart is breaking. I don't know how to include the link-sorry!) I swear, your wife, as well as so many others, sounds exactly like my H. It's like they all studied the same handbook! He says so many of the same words. The difficulty I have is that we have been married almost 28 years and I love him with everything in me. He really is a great guy, but I believe he is in full blown MLC. (although instead of the convertible, he has thrown himself into his job and "saving the world") I am still praying so hard that somehow he will turn things around.

But, as for you, your wife is an idiot. You sound like such a great, level headed man. We all make mistakes in our marriages, and guilt is eating me up as well, but when it comes right down to it...WE CHOSE TO STAY. That makes us the better people. I have struggled because my husband really did treat me better than I treated him. And I have apologized and had to forgive myself as well. But I still feel like I have taken the high road and he has taken the coward's way out. And you, my friend, can hold your head up high. You have learned so much and have become a better, stronger person. I only hope I can come out of this nightmare being able to say the same thing.

Well, I just wanted to thank you for such an inspirational thread. I seriously have gained a lot of insight from your journey.

I wish you well. Be proud of yourself and be happy.

kermit

[~ kd ~]

In response to Denver's continued willingness and desire to keep trying, in the face of adversity:

"and this is ^^^ pretty much why I told my MC what I told him. I said I did not want to quit and he asked about whether that was fear of dating or being alone and I said "no. I have no fear of that and in fact, it's an upside if we divorce"..."

Nicely said, 25. I have had plenty of people tell me to move on. In many ways I have and am. I am not actively seeking to date, although I am not closed to the idea and I do go out with female friends and enjoy it and feel no guilt.

My W challenged me one day, suggesting that I was more interested or involved in being M, rather than it being about my W. I struggled with that. And about people suggesting that one should not stay married to be married or for the kids...

I thank you for sharing the above because that is very much what "for better AND worse" is really about.

I maintain that people are married for 25, 50, and more years not because there are no problems. It is because they are still married. A choice to remain married rather than to choose divorce during rough times.

If that means that a person has to hold to staying married for the M, or staying married for the kids, or staying married for security (financial or otherwise). So long as it is not harmful, then the "reason" (of the moment) is irrelevant to the end result of remaining married to the person that we love and chose to love "until death do us part".

It is simply a choice in that moment rather than a basis for the M. We choose a reason for the moment because we love our spouses. Or at the very least, we remember we loved our spouses and committed to that love. And we understand that once this moment passes, we will still love our spouse. So being "on the other side" M to our S, rather than D... well... the choice is clear to me...

You are a good man, 2step. Nothing is over until it is over and until then, everything can happen. Life is the journey, not the destination. It's fantastic!

[2stepboogie]

Ok 25 I have thought and thought about your questions. While a part of me would love the chance to reconcile another part (the majority) does not at this point. That is for several reasons. Part of it is what I belief love to be, I will explain further down and also my core values.

So I see the answer to your question in several parts not just one overall answer. So, I apologize in advance because this will be another classic long 2step post. I find that writing is much easier for me than talking and sometimes I get carried away.

If it's a boundary that you simply cannot get past b/c there's something in you that doesn't allow for it, and you've examined this and must choose as you are, that's NOT the same as being punitive. It's a tough call with most people but not with you. (You're too honest for that poop.)

You know I forgave my first W for this. She took it one step further. We got M under the assumption that her son was actually mine. Of course the assumption was all mine because she knew all along. I did not find out until he was 2 and it was the boy's biological grandmother that told me.

I stayed.

I forgave her. Can't say it was easy and we did have some VERY tough times shortly after that but once I worked it out in my mind and decided to forgive her, I did, of course when she started to chase the boy’s biological father while I would be out of town on military duty the game changed. Again the bio grandma told me what was going on. I left!

We actually tried for about 6 months until I found out she was seeing OM (not the boy’s father) it was my xmas morning present cause that is when she admitted it to me. At that point I was done. Never again did I look back. As for the boy? He lives with his bio grandma and visits me every summer for a month, matter of fact he is at home right now playing with my D. He will be here till July 13th and has been here for a few weeks already.

My first W chased for a year. I could not trust her again. The trust had been broken and I could never look back. We still talk and are very friendly and when she found out about me and W she was very supportive, but that M was completely toxic from the gate and we were both babies. I could write another 12 threads about why the best decision I ever made was to leave and file for divorce.

What does this have to do with anything?

Well it is to illustrate the point that I can forgive this kind of action; after all I have done it before and under much dire circumstances. It is not a question of forgiving her and I think I have misspoken, I will forgive her, I am sure of that, But I will never take her back. I can’t. I fought tooth and nail not to get to this point. You know what I think is harder than all this? For them to want to come back and I am not interested. I had a dream about that last night I was depressed most of the morning.

My comment is that you are doing some serious mind reading/characterization of her behavior which I am not sure is accurate or fair.

I suppose this is a fair statement. Since I don’t have any way to tell what is in her mind I can only use deductive reasoning. Someone told me something awhile ago and it made perfect sense to me…

No matter what she SAYS, her actions are clear enough for you, aren't they?

And this is very true. Sound familiar?

Maybe she was confused. Maybe she was weighing her options. Maybe she did not know what she wanted. Her actions were not confusing though. They were pretty clear; therefore she was done long before I was. However, she did call Jody more than once. She did show affection while I was there. She did ask to read the books. So her actions reflected mixed messages also.

Here is what I do know.

When I got there in December she was not wearing her rings, she saw that I noticed and she made the comment that she had taken her rings off two weeks prior.

The next day after we had left the bar we were driving around her phone rang at 12:30AM. She did not answer it but when I went inside the convenience store to get her a drink I saw she was on the phone. …………..It was OM leaving a bar and calling her. She told me so. My face must have told her what I was thinking because she quickly defended herself and told me how he was a childhood friend she had ran into at a family reunion 2 weeks prior. Hmmm. While I was in OK for those 5 days he called 3 times all past midnight and that is only the times I was with her. You can put the pieces together from there.

When I was there in April he called again while I was with her.

He was with her at a wedding sometime in Jan she was tagged on the photo on FB.

She had gone to Tulsa on several occasions to see him and he had gone to her town.

Before she called Jody she was seen holding hands and kissing him by a close friend of the family. This was kept from me in order to protect my feelings. It was revealed much later.

One week after calling Jody she moved to Tulsa to live with OM. That decision did not come overnight. It had been talked about. Of that I AM SURE

So perhaps you are correct. Some things are assumptions on my part but I have a pretty good basis for my assumptions.

My Question is, even assuming you are right, why is that so "unforgivable"?

Because I deserve better and I deserved better treatment.

You can't believe she could be confused, retaining deep feelings for you while also thinking perhaps too much water had gone over the bridge?
Dare I ask, So what if she wanted to hedge her bets?

Perhaps she thought that but then again this goes back to my original post. It is when times are tough that we learn what we are made of. I stood for us when really there was nothing to stand for. I knew the work that it would take to reconcile but I was willing to do it. It was important enough for me but it was not for her. Her decision. Not Mine.

If she hedged her bets then I would say she should have gone short but she held her hand too long.

Is the "unforgivable" part of this, that you believed her to be working on YOU as a couple, while instead she was also pursuing OM and doing some comparison shopping?

Yes! Although I did not assume we were working on anything I was merely hoping we were. I was doing all the work but she never gave me a clean break from it all. She kept me on while R with OM was being built. I was the backup plan. That is not someone I want as part of my life. I never would have done that to her under any circumstance. I think she was not honest with me in fact I feel as if I was betrayed several times throughout this whole process. Right or wrong it is none the less how I felt.

I don’t even think she had a physical affair and as MichelleLT will surely point out at some point “she is divorced she can do whatever she wants” that is true and so can I but my emotions are based on the R we had until recently. My expectations were clear my intention was also clear. She knew them both and rather than telling me, when asked directly, she continued to give me vague answers and hopeful responses. Everything came out of left field for me and I think that was dishonest and I have lost my trust in her as a person.

At the end of the day I look at the whole thing as a choice. A choice to stay married, a choice to try again, a choice NOT to let our problems define our R rather to strengthen it, and the speed in which everything in my M/R and ultimately D took place is also somewhat bothersome to me.

First, I ask you this: Is the reason you can't abide by the OM in your w's life b/c of fear? Fear she'll do it again?

No! It is because of principle. My morality and my values would be against any decision to allow my x back in my life. The amount of work that it would take to rebuild a R is not something I think she would do and not something I would be interested in doing. It is sad. I hope I am never faced with that decision because I believe it would be more painful than what I have already gone through.

If I have the fear of her doing it again then there is no need for me to even discuss it. When I saw her in December at one point she said “well I have to think although I suppose I could always leave again” I stopped her cold. “If that is the mentality you want to enter into then I don’t want you to come back” Did I not want her back in December? More than anything in the world.

Trust - Trust is the cornerstone of a healthy, deeply satisfying marriage.

Fear? I have plenty.

This is just ANOTHER example of how the "hanging in there" approach is a recipe for failure...You say you tried everything. No you didn’t. You didn't try letting go and moving on and getting tough...Just another example that allowing someone to carry on an affair and not getting tough dooms the relationship by a slow slow drip.....

Gucci thank you for stopping by my thread, I believe this is the first time you have posted but I have read your comments on Denver’s thread before. I have to disagree with your assumption that I was hanging in there I view it quite differently.

I was committed to my M and my wife and I know that if I had conducted myself differently and ended up divorced anyways I would have lived with a huge burden on my shoulder. I could not deal with that. I had to look in the mirror the day after and accept my fate with no regret. You say I didn’t try letting go. Nothing could be further from the truth. Letting go and moving on are not things I can do from one day to the next and even today it leaves it effects. Just so we are clear, I did not allow anyone to carry on a affair and at no point has this been confirmed. The day I knew about the move that was the day I closed my door and my emotions to her. That has always been by boundary without exception.

I feel what I did in completely different. My wife felt unloved, and unappreciated. That is my fault. However Divorce for me was never an option and my commitment was to her AND the institution of Marriage whether she lived in OK or Japan. My goal was to save our marriage until she left me with nothing left to save.

Everyone goes through their process at their own speed some move quickly some slowly but we all eventually get to the finish line. What we pick up and learn along the way will determine if our journey was a success or a failure. Time will tell for each of us.

[25yearsmlc]

2step,

For the most part, I get it. Your post contained facts I did not know. But fwiw

I posted elsewhere today about what I'd do if my h had an OW. It relates.

I used to say "Dealbreaker, black & white" to me.

But instead, I said "that depends" and one thing it would depend on

is whether my h was acting as if all was well in our m

And if I thought all was well and we seemed happy, AND if I was "awake"
and felt close to h and h seemed close to me...

only to learn h had an OW....???

aside from the deep hurt I'd feel-

it would just make me so confused and eternally distrustful of my whole world view and perceptions...that

it'd be a dealbreaker.

However, It MIGHT NOT BE a dealbreaker

[b]IF[/b] I knew we were having trouble AND if I felt at least partly

responsible for h's needs not being met.

That would at least be worth discussing...


but long term deceit, and pretense, would erode too much in me.

And in a sense, it's just a different reason you have for feeling the same way.

I trust your heart and mind to do the right thing so,

So, No arguments here. Esp since you've been through this before, sort of.

I hope you have learned about women here, what I've learned here about men...

which is that men (& women) have loyal hearts and are essentially good inside...they want and need, mostly,

what we need and want from them.

I think we want A good friend, an engaged lover, a trusted confidante.

If you are as you appear to be, you are the above^^^, and you deserve the same.

((( )))

[ninelives]

Im with you 2step all the way. IDK why people do what they do. I believe that it is to relieve unhappiness that they are feeling and do not really know how oope. Short term fixes that lead to long term mistakes and then they are trapped.

I KNOW you are going to make it 2step. You are full of insight and if you keep learning on this scale, you should teach a course on this subject somewhere.

I hope you stick around.

BTW, I have had some unexpected developments in mine. Many will not approve.

If you get a chance drop by, I always value your opinion.

9

[2stepboogie]

I do not know if this has any bearing on anything or if it really matters at this point but figured I would write it down as part of my "interactive journal"

She emailed me on friday. First email I have received from her in 3-4 months. Usually she calls or text.

There was a restaurant we use to frequent and they sent her and me both a special for dinner. She emailed it to me and said

" you should go it looks good"

That was it. Like I said it is nothing of note but figured I would write it down.

My response?

None. I deleted the email and continued about my day.

Although I did for a second thought about responding with

"I already have a date planned for it. Thanks for sharing."

Of course I did not send it, but it was a nice thought and it made me smile.

you should teach a course on this subject somewhere.

LOL It would get lonely talking to myself 9, but thank your for your kind words. they are always appreciated.

[~ kd ~]

Sounds like she's not done with you, yet...