WAW - true or false?

[25yearsmlc]

rh,

Just read this thread but don't know how many there are, as Sandi said. It's easier for us to chime in if we know where you are and have all the info in one place.

And can you put here or in your signature what your kids' ages are, how long you've been m, and what your jobs are like.

(You don't have to be specific, but a general idea of the stress level, any financial problems, or travel amount).

Also something about what bomb she dropped. Was it the divorce bomb or the "IDLYA", or a generalized "I'm not happy" bomb? I believe you have 13 years in the m? How long did you date before that?

Based on the info in THIS thread only,

Here are some other things I'd like info on in order to target my comments.

Why is your r with her family so bad? Is it the temper/irritability of yours?

What were your w's specific complaints about you?

If this info is elsewhere, I didn't see it& am basing my comments solely on THIS thread.

Sorry if I missed something.

I'm going to hazard a guess based on your posts.

Get a helmet on b/c I have a few 2 x 4s.


To re-cap your behavior BEFORE you got the DB books/coach....

AND which is likely your wife's view of you & the marital history---

You've had a negative "Eyeore" attitude for years, which "drains" her and the kids;

You've had a significant temper problem, which hurt her & the kids, repeatedly
(& which most people with tempers- tend to minimize the effects of),

You've bullied your w and son, and perhaps your d,

and you exhibited a selfish lazy attitude around the house and yard.
[b]

I know you'll want to rationalize & explain away the above^^, but that's not helpful to You. You already said you got the message in childhood that being helpful around the house was wimpy and not masculine. I don't know what message you got about losing your temper.

Bear in mind what "losing your temper" really means. It means you hurt someone.

Discussions about your childhood or background may give you an insight as to why you treated her so poorly, but it smacks of justification,

and that's NOT helpful to you, and this site is about solution based approaches.

Not history taking or psycho analyzing or justifications,[u] much of which has value,

but isn't the purpose of THIS approach.

Besides, it smacks of excuse making or justification.
And If anything, THAT makes it seem harder for you to overcome behaviorally

b/c you'd be saying, in effect,

you're justified but handicapped by your background

so you cannot become a good loving partner b/c

it's too ingrained into you that helping around the house means you're a wimp so selfishness is masculine and, blah blah blah.

Can you See how UNhelpful this "explanation" is to your cause? [/u]
[/b]
The more direct you are in facing your own behavior and how you got here, the better for YOU.

The best news YOU can get going to a c, is that YOU have problems or issues to work on. I say this with absolute conviction b/c

the worst news you can get is that you were a "faultless perfect spouse and husband"

but she's leaving you anyhow....

B/C that would mean you are powerless. And that's bad news for you.


Lucky for you, you know you have major issues to work on and therefore you have SOME control in the situation. It's empowering. And

your changes will be more easily noticed,

although harder to trust. Make sense?

I learned this the hard way. For instance, Most of our mc's told me that my h was "acting like a single man" and or, "he wants out", ...which did nothing for ME b/c that

made it all about my h, and gave me nothing "to do"...

so when I finally saw how my own reaction to h's behavior over the years, had been destructive it was a real eye opener.

For instance, when my h would work extra cases --(h is an MD and always worked LONG hours) while we had little kids and I worked full time...

he'd say he did it for the extra money which he felt we needed, but often I thought he was doing it for extra accolades, or some NON family reason.

I saw it as him having misplaced priorties & valuing the admiration of colleagues more than the love or admiration of his family) so, how did I respond?

Coldly...I feared/rationalized that being warm/loving when he got home

would somehow reward him or encourage him to work even more,

so I reacted coldly. I had my arms crossed, literally and figuratively.

I actually recall believing that if I were loving in the face of his "misdeeds", I'd be encouraging them more. So, Did my approach work? NO.

Did I change my approach? NO!

I brilliantly continued going down the same cheeseless tunnel for years, until I got my DB coach. What a Godsend she was.

See, Instead of the crossed arms, I could have given my h something to miss. I could have been loving and warm. Even if he was being a workaholic, even if the priorities were misplaced, MY approach was failing and yet I repeated it. Bottom line, who wants to come home to a visibly disappointed wife? Lesson, finally, learned.



So make the changes, and stop talking about them.


Also, Stop talking about how SHE needs therapy and how you wish SHE'D go b/c she has her own issues....yeah, she's human and knows this. But it is


sooo NOT YOUR JOB to fix her. Sooo NOT your job to suggest how she can improve.

Fix yourself. It's wildly inappropriate for you to tell her anything like that at this stage.

It's Not the spouse's job to "show her the consequences of her choices or behavior"....as my DB coach said, "life does that, not a loving spouse".

Plus, your plate is plenty full with the changes you have to make, and they must be cemented OVER TIME...before she can even believe they are real, let alone know how she feels about them.

As for what she says these days...don't get bogged down too much or think it's all permanent.
We all feel things and sometimes we express them.
That does not make them true or eternal.

Meaning, my journals from 05 are pretty sad & angry but I meant what I said at the time.

But some of them were inaccurate then, and few of them are true NOW.



When you comment about her getting off the fence and wanting to nudge her that way, I say STOP now. Bad enough for you to be impatient on this, but your tone sounded punitive. Plus

Don't get amnesia Newsflash...RH, you are not the aggrieved party in her eyes. SHE IS.... How so? Let's look at one example.

The description you gave of your behavior at your son's game, is revealing.

I played softball for 12 years and then got a scholarship for college. I was a pretty good player and very dedicated. My father rarely attended my games (I'm one of 9 kids) but If my dad had said ANYTHING negative at a game about an error of mine,

(as if I didn't know I'd made an error, and as if that didn't bother me already

and as if I didn't already have a coach who coaches me

AND as if I needed some more public humiliation added to what I already felt

AND AS IF I needed my loving supportive father, to become a sports critic

AND as if it that would help me play better at all....

[u]AS A KID , [/u]

I'd never forget or forgive him.

Don't do that anymore. Period.

Whatever rationalizations you have for it, the truth is it's YOUR frustration you are taking out on him. That just sounds mean. For a witness in the audience to applaud your normal behavior and his response, was sad but usefully revealing.

Moning on...
You seem upset she hasn't reacted consistently or positively to the changes you are making. But see, SOME of the changes you are making are simply you reacting like a normal person. That's kind of weird to praise but even so, she is noticing...(& that's a gift.)

It's wonderful that your son will now have positive recollections of what you say to him at his games.

Bear in mind that For every nasty or critical thing you say to him, a child needs about 5-6 positives to compensate.

IOW, your son will recall the negatives 5-6 times more than he'll remember the positives.

You need to seriously think about that when you do the "score keeping" that I sense in your post.

the frustration your wife expressed is probably

that maybe you have changed, finally...but you fear

but it's too little too late.

Based on her other comments, THIS IS NOT CLEAR TO HER YET...

She's NOT sure, and that's good news for you.

Don't press her for more. You're lucky

she's not 100% committed to leaving.

Be grateful, appreciative, and use your time wisely and lovingly.



I applaud you supporting and validating her career concerns.

Just steer clear of trying to "fix it". Listen. Avoid expressing your desire that SHE should work on Herself now, it'll come off as criticism, and controlling behavior, and it is.

Thing is, you say she can barely stand to be around you. So You have very little leverage here. I hope this makes sense b/c it's crucial you get this).

You have to contrast her negative views of you with 180s and positive images. This will take time b/c you have to "erase" the negatives she has built up over the years. SOME Of it is not accurate but we all see our histories with our own lenses.

Own what you can and move forward. Lose your scorecard or justifications for how or why you hurt her.

We cannot expect our spouses to see our marital histories identically & I think it's a waste of time and energy trying to.

Right now, she almost wants to believe your changes are NOT real b/c
it confuses her and means she may have to trust you again...and that

means she might get hurt again, and she has been deeply wounded by you for some time.

But you are still under the same roof. That's another gift.

Contrast & undermine her negative views with your new behaviors. This takes far longer than a few weeks or months.

And it does not mean you should not validate her views on your past.

You can say "if I had it to do over, I'd do a lot of things differently". That shows you get it, but that you are a different man.

Essentially you have to show her that marriage to you now, and from this day forward,

would be different and better. That's mandatory if she's going to recommit.

Love is a choice, but she's got a painful history with you

and she has "witnesses" as in her sister and mother. They validate her perceptions so you have to help with that by demonstrating your changes to them as well.


Lose the negative attitude around them please.

Please do NOT go behind her back to talk about your changes to her friends/family.

Please do NOT ask her to read DB books.

That's manipulative, looks "tactical" & controlling, and it will backfire, as you are discovering.

It undermines your claim that you are really changing as a man, to become the man you want to become.

Campaigning for yourself with her people, makes the changes appear to be tactics, rather than real changes from within. That's much harder for her to trust.

Instead of wanting to push her off the fence, I'd say you should be grateful she's even on a fence. She's still there and at least watching you b/c it means she is NOT indifferent.

(Side note. Bring your own chair to the games and stop setting yourself up to be hurt by her not taking care of you. Plus it means you are not expecting her "to do for you").

Remember Winnie the Pooh's characters? Eyeore was the ever depressed donkey and Tigger was the happy bouncy tiger.
From your description of your past behavior, even now, you're barely able to maintain a positive attitude. Your nature was a pessimistic one.

Okay so keep up the "Tigger" attitude and lose the 'Eyore" attitude The phrase "fake it til you make it" is gimmicky BUT effective. Give it a chance. A real chance and just do it.

She understands that you are not blowing things off but trying to change.

What is it that you are doing that makes it seem a bit off? Are there sad events occuring that you appear to be ignoring? Are there people crying whom you are ignoring?

I'm asking about the context of your w's comments regarding your PMA.

Given what you said about your temper in the past, sounds as if you lost your temper a lot AND OR you were easily irritated.

Understand that this means you hurt her or the kids, repeatedly, over time...and that's not something that goes away fast. That is not her fault.



I'm not bashing you about it, I'm reminding you of why it's taking "long" in your mind. And I'm trying to show you that this is a very new thing for her. You have not been at this for long. Check my signature line to see MY timeline...you have to "get real" about your timeline.

Til these changes become truly new behaviors and HABITS of yours, you can't expect her to trust the changes, AND even if she does believe the changes are real, she won't know how SHE FEELS about it, for some time.

SO Back off.

you've been here a short short time.

Take the long haul picture and don't keep telling her you are going to be better for the next R.

You said it twice that I know of and that's at least once too often.

Don't talk about your changes anymore. Just make them.

If she comments to you about a new behavior they see, you can jokingly admit "just goes to show some of us are actually educable"... and if she criticizes something from the past that has validity,

you can say "if I could do it over, I'd do lots of things differently" . IF she says something too

extreme or too revised and inaccurate, you can say "wow, I don't recall it that way but I'm sorry you were hurt by that"...this validates her feelings without enabling a total revision. Don't get bogged down in history though. The point is to keep the focus on now and "from this day forward".


Last but not least, no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her children, with their father.

Be the best dad you can be. Not "in front" of her, that's tactical.

Just be loving and fully present w/ the kids.

She'll know. Even if she doesn't, it's the right thing to do.

Keep at this, it's a good thing and it's going to take time. Longer than you realize.

Try to be grateful you've been given the chance to try to

become the man you were meant to become.

Be a man only a fool would leave.

Do your best to be that man, and leave the results up to God.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Holy crap 25 did you have to ice your fingers after that?

: )

[direction1]

Incredible 25...so helpful to anyone!

[Queen_of_Swords]

Thanks 25 I really, really struggle with all of what you wrote.
I can't seem to overcome my aggrievement.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Scylla you helped me to look at myself and I did. I admitt that I still do not like praise, but I have with your advice come to accept it, graciously.

I can't seem to overcome my aggrievement.

While what I am about to say is going to sound zen, or like a freaking hallmark moment.

I can't seem to overcome my aggrievement.

That is your choice. And the rest of your life will be defined by it. You can either hold onto your grudge (yes I just put all your hurt and pain into a simple little word) like an evil little teddy bear.

Or you can fear yourself from this, and how it will shape you.

I can't seem to overcome my aggrievement.

Look around, you have to know someone like this in your life. Are they examples you want to be? Or are they as I imagine bitter people, snide, pessemistic?

Be excellent to each other.

And look around again, you also know people like this.


Who do you want to be?


Its a choice.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

edit - stupid edit button.

Or you can fear yourself from this, and how it will shape you.

SHOULD be:

Or you can free yourself from this....

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Scylla_Charibdis]Thanks 25 I really, really struggle with all of what you wrote.


SC,

there's the grief first. You have to plod through it b/c you cannot get "around" it. As for the holding on

or the rest of it and what Jack's saying, it's true.

There really is choice in this.

That's why usually the LBSer ends up in a better place than a WAS.
The WAS has to look over their shoulder the rest of their lives 2nd guessing their choices and wondering "what if?"

What if they had stayed?

What if the LBSer really did change? How good might it have been?

The OW/OM isn't flawless as it turns out...so at times, the WAS misses the LBSer.

Every problem in the WAS's new life that arises, triggers a "what if?" moment in the WAS.

But the healthy LBSer just has to make the best of what got handed to them.

They look inward, do some serious brave looking and they CHANGE

the LBSer becomes a better person and

part of that

is becoming a more contented loving person

who makes their life better than it was

The healthy LBSer makes the best of things and that always means a better life

than what they would have had

with a selfish or deceitful partner


so while the LBSer doesn't have the burden/luxury of 2nd guessing and looking over their shoulder, while the LBSer simply enjoys a better purer life


The WAS always will look over their shoulder wondering...


UNLESS SC, you make a different, sad choice. But know that it IS a choice.

SC, you can be happy again. You can love again. I KNOW THIS. We need you to know it too.

[25yearsmlc]

RH

this thread has more honesty from you, imo

[rh24]

25 - agreed.

The 'Newcomer' thread was a quicker synopsis just trying to get some feedback as this thread was likely in the wrong place and not getting much notice!

FYI - everyone, I'm trying to migrate my 'discussion' HERE

Not trying to mislead or confuse - sorry!

[Queen_of_Swords]

Thanks Jack. You get straight to the point. I need that.
You're right I am holding on to a grudge. I thought it was something different, but it's not.

Time to wean that nasty baby.

Thanks for chiming in too 25yearsmlc