74 Days - Who Knows?

[Starsky309]

Not taking sides here Starsky, but Cat is correct. The toilet event happened on June 1st, the W and I had our long conversation in which we agreed that she would take June to just be by herself on June 3rd.

I have lots of responses to all of the posts that my thread got yesterday, and also have an update... but it will have to wait because I am slammed with work for the next couple of days!

Denver

gr8 - W is not in contact with OM right now. My W is a professional vocalist with an entertainment company and a few different bands. OM is a horn player whom she works with on occasion. They were both at a recording session about a week and a half ago, and OM apparently was trying to avoid W. W felt badly about the situation, said that she felt horrible about hurting OM.

I agree. W is confused right now.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it.

Denver

There are other posts I could pull, but my only point was this:

While some of us would have preferred for you to state your boundaries more clearly, there's absolutely no doubt from my point of view that "the spirit of the law" was that your wife was to use this "space" time, ALONE, without OM influencing her, and that furthermore, she led you to believe she was doing this.

The only point I was trying to make was not to feel so apologetic about needing transparency from her, when there was a recent history of:

a. infidelity, and

b. deceit.

If anyone thinks this OM was just checking out Denver's wife's commode plumbing, or thinks that his wife has been honest and trustworthy through all of this, well I guess you've just been reading different threads than I have.


Starsky

[Denver_2010]

Not taking sides here Starsky, but Cat is correct. The toilet event happened on June 1st, the W and I had our long conversation in which we agreed that she would take June to just be by herself on June 3rd.

I have lots of responses to all of the posts that my thread got yesterday, and also have an update... but it will have to wait because I am slammed with work for the next couple of days!

Denver

gr8 - W is not in contact with OM right now. My W is a professional vocalist with an entertainment company and a few different bands. OM is a horn player whom she works with on occasion. They were both at a recording session about a week and a half ago, and OM apparently was trying to avoid W. W felt badly about the situation, said that she felt horrible about hurting OM.

I agree. W is confused right now.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it.

Denver

There are other posts I could pull, but my only point was this:

While some of us would have preferred for you to state your boundaries more clearly, there's absolutely no doubt from my point of view that "the spirit of the law" was that your wife was to use this "space" time, ALONE, without OM influencing her, and that furthermore, she led you to believe she was doing this.

The only point I was trying to make was not to feel so apologetic about needing transparency from her, when there was a recent history of:

a. infidelity, and

b. deceit.

If anyone thinks this OM was just checking out Denver's wife's commode plumbing, or thinks that his wife has been honest and trustworthy through all of this, well I guess you've just been reading different threads than I have.
Starsky

Your point is well taken Starsky. Things began to fall apart shortly after that post on 4/11 though. W told me that she was struggling with unresolved feelings for OM, that she had started having contact with him again... she told me that she was inviting him over for dinner on May 1st... where she was a bit dishonest was when she told me that she needed time and space, and that she wasn't 'dating' anyone. That was right around May 10th. But she was very clear to me that she wasn't ready to work on our M.

So then the toilet incident happens on June 1st. I say that I am done bc I can't deal with the pain anymore, go dark on her for 2 days, she texts me multiple times, and calls my cell phone 34 x within 20 minutes, cancels my cell phone... I go to her house... reiterate that I am done if OM in in her life... she says that he is no longer, that she has to end it, that she has no intention of dating anyone and will let me know if that changes... I set out my boundary very, very clearly to her... we agree to her taking June to be by herself...

That is the cliffnote version of the timeline...

Denver

[Starsky309]

OK, thanks. So my timeline was wrong, but she has, in fact, been deceitful less than truthful with you about the nature of her contact, and her R, with OM.

So how will you know if she is, indeed, "taking June by herself?" if there's no transparency plan in place?

I guess I just have a basic philosophical/strategic/tactical difference here with several others. Some say "Can't lay out a strict 'NO CONTACT' boundary until you're ready -- and SHE's ready to come back," and I say "She won't BE ready to come back, as long as she's being influenced by OM, and if you DON'T lay out firmer/clearer/less-fuzzy boundaries, she's not GOING to end her contact, and she WILL be influenced by OM, and emotionally blocked to all of this wonderful "new Denver" you are learning to grow into.

Basic chicken-and-the-egg, and not really worth debating. I was mainly just trying to buck you up from feeling foolish or embarrassed about needing transparency, because I think it's perfectly reasonable, considering.


Starsky

[Denver_2010]

So how will you know if she is, indeed, "taking June by herself?" if there's no transparency plan in place?

I have to trust her Starsky. I believe that she has tried to be fairly transparent by telling me of her plans, who she is with, what she is doing, etc.

But trust is the bottom line. Could she be lying? Yep. Trust me, not feeling as if I can trust my W 100% is a very new thing for me. She has always been very loyal and honest with me up until the recent deal when she told me that she didn't want to date anyone... and then did.

But if I can't find it in myself to trust her, then what is the point in trying to save the M anyway?

Denver

[Denver_2010]

and this "infidelity" and "deceit" commentary is a bit off target here anyhow.

Denver admits

that there no agreement or clear boundary setting for the separation

But they were absolutely separated

so let's not lump and equate every adulterer into the same pile.

It's not as if she was pretending all was well, in a happy intact family and THEN had an affair. Her perception does matter.

This is all true. I suppose it depends on your view of things. Some people believe it is perfectly acceptable to 'date' during a separation, while others do not.

My W and I had never discussed it when we first separated bc, well, she was completely DONE with me and was not speaking to me.

The most recent deal with OM on the toilet, is a bit fuzzy too. She did tell me that she was not ready to work on the M, that she had started having contact with OM again, that she needed time and space to figure things out...

but she did say that she didn't want to date anyone...

She denies saying that... but she did.

And then I found OM on her toilet like a scared and beaten dog...

Either way... not the boundary is clear... and W has agreed to it... in fact, has said that she needs it too.

So the question on whether or not her actions are infidelity, an affair, or whatever... well, I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.

For me, it really doesn't matter how it is defined any longer.

It happened... and I, we, have to deal with it.

[Denver_2010]

It's not that big a deal, and you shouldn't feel funny about it. Transparency is a necessary part of the plan in these situations, where there's been prior infidelity, and prior deceit.

Goes with the territory.
Starsky

I meant to say in my last reply to you Starsky that I agree that transparency will be important...

but I don't think that there is much that I can do until W is committed to working on our M...

Otherwise, I risk making her feel smothered as I did before.

I have to trust her.

[Denver_2010]

Aww crud, Devner I saw the whole, you guys talking thing and totally missed the 'space'.

Give her space. She doesn't exist for the next week and a half or so.

Exactly Jack. That's what I'm doing.

[Denver_2010]

Good Lord Denver,

I go away for a bit, get one of my rare glimpses of what my future is going to look like in a few short months, take some time to feed the horses this afternoon, and you are on here looking for a smack in the head...


The guys are giving you great advice.

And you are not listening.

I will say it again, stop trying to use words to explain this away...

Rational thought is NOT going to work in this situation...

Is your W posting things to mislead you?

Who knows?

Is she posting to see if you are going to check up on her, to see if you say something, just to see if you trust her or not?

Probably. I know if I was unsure and still wanting space, I would...

Because if you asked about it, I would then know that you haven't changed at all...

RELAX. STOP. BREATH.

With the amount of pressure you are putting on yourself to micromanage something that you can't, if she does want to work it out, you are going to have no energy left.

You won't trust her. Don't think you will. Trust takes time and effort.

You have to WANT to be able to trust her though. Or it will NEVER happen...

Denver, stop trying to prove that you are different and that you have changed and just act like it, or don't. The thoughts in your head, that get put here on the page, tell me that you are still struggling within yourself to keep the old Denver down. And you need to make sure that he is a very distant memory for the both of you...

These thoughts you are having, making yourself nuts, are happening because you are not in CONTROL of the situation right now and you are feeling it hard. Not because she hasn't committed to anything. In fact, I see you wanting that committment, as a form of control. If and when you are talking to her, you still have to recognize that she is a person, and you can't control her. Period.

Because the Denver who has control...

Is the old Denver.

The verifying that Jack is talking about, the transparency, goes both ways...eventually, it becomes just a comfortable way of life where there are no secrets...

That will only happen if both people are on board (which is the first indicator that there is NOTHING to hide).

I see what you are saying Jack. The problem is that right now, she is NOT committed to the M.

And this...

was a very fancy way of saying "yes but"...

Which is just a way to create an excuse...

I think it is time to really try to stop that as well...

You are right as usual Cat.

It is a control issue for me. And THAT is the old me... and what my W does NOT want.

I AM still struggling with some old tendencies. It is hard to let go Cat. I'm trying.... and getting better. But it is still difficult.

Thanks as always.

Denver

[Denver_2010]

PS
Did everyone else take amnesia pills?

Remember that Denver has some things to prove to HER...

SHE has to learn to trust HIM too....

and all this crazy making headwork is just dangerous.


Good grief Denver, you were praying for a chance. Remember how much it sukked that she wasn't with you??

You thought you and she were DONE less than a month ago!!


Then you get the miracle you so wanted. The concept of reconciliation is more than a mere concept now. OMG...


And We all said "Be cautious!! Don't rush things!"
You said "good point"...

SHE came up with a one month "time for ourselves" proposal, which was healthy. You agreed.


SHE chooses to give you her itinerary...a new thing for her. And

this was your chance to show her that you are different and your changes are real....

so what do you do?


You pine and whine & obsess with duress, about whether she's telling you the truth and how you can check on her and blah blah blah

= YOU ARE BLOWING IT!!!

GET OFF THE LEDGE DENVER...


What exactly are YOU showing HER with this nonsense?

Well, I'm showing her very little of what I am posting here 25. I'm sure that Faith and Starsky are right that she has some 6th sense that picks up on some of it. But I'm not outwardly showing it.

I don't feel that she owes me anything at this point, bc we are separated... but I am owed the truth.

I can't confirm that she is being honest... I realize that... I just have to put my trust in her...

And put my trust in all of you to talk me off the ledge (again) if i get burned!

[Denver_2010]

Talk - I have not tried meditation. I have been meaning to give it a try for some time now as it was suggested by someone else.

I have found some peace in working out every day this week though.

Thanks for the idea. I may give it a shot.

Denver