There is no TEST here. God didn't do this to YOU, and there is nothing in the wedding vows I remember taking that said anything about the woman being a sexual dynamo according to the husband's standards.
You are in the mess you are in because you are so unbelievably certain that you are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG. You have convinced yourself that until your wife 'sees the light' of how important physical touch is to you, that you have no options, no choices, no hope. You get to be the victim, she gets to be the bad guy. In this scenario, you no longer have to examine your own motives, question your own beliefs, or make any effort whatsoever beyond the effort you already have because you are so insanely PISSED that you wife is not what you want her to be, how DARE she.
You're just f$cking pissed at the world, CeMar, and it's EVERYONE's fault but yours. So yes, under this scenario, you definitely have a major, major problem.
So, then what are my options, me being the awful guy that actually wants to TOUCH his wife. I have been told to change me, and this is GOOD advice, I just jhave a long way to go. You have told me yourself that I can only change me, that my wife will only change when she wants to if ever. But it seems that many of us are here to make changes in our relationships that might get changes in return. I have read the SSM, and in order for ANY of it to work requires changes by BOTH partners. No one is right or wrong, but you have to find an acceptable solution for each. Luckily you found something that works for you, most of us are really struggling on a solution. So in the long run it seems it boils down to 3 solutions:
A) Make changes in ourselfs to help the relationship and MAYBE by the grace of God the other spouse will magically understand these changes and also make changes. B) Option #10 from SSM, Kiss your sex life goodbye, lock it in the closet and throw away the key and accept your spouse for who they are and try to build a tolerable marriage. C) Divorce
Options B and C are AWFUL options, but may be necessary, and C is really bad for people that have religious convictions as well. I have read all kinds of web sites and books, and I have yet to see a single expert say that to fix this problem does not require the work of the LD spouse. It is a couple problem, and if it is to be resolved, both spouses must make changes. It is the duty of the HD to do everything they can to bring the relationship to whatever point the LD needs, it is the duty of the HD to make sex as effortless and enjoyable as possible. But they all say for this to work will require significant effort on the part of the LD spouse as well, as they must find as easy a path to enjoying sex as possible. If the LD chooses to NOT work on the "PROBLEM" then we are back to the 2 terrible options. Or is there another option that I can not think of at this point?
If us HD male pigs are so responsible for causing our wives to become ND, if we change back to the wonderful guys we were when we got married, then do the ND wives go back to being HD wives? I am not trying to be snotty here, but it seems to me that there are more contributing factors to ND then just a jerky husband. And as Michelle says, who cares what the reason is, just do something to solve he situation.
Has your wife read SSM? Have you discussed it with her yet?
Just curious.
I understand your frustration and anger. Somehow, you have to back off on both in order to get your wife to talk about the issues. I know that sucks and isn't fair, but that is what it will take for her to even consider discussing it with you. If she has hurts that you are unaware of, the last thing she is going to do is open up to you if she is frightened of your response in any way.
It really sticks in my craw to have special rules, but the fact is she is female, and needs a very different atmosphere to express herself than you or I. Guys are told to be tough from an early age. We learn how to take a good ass chewing right in stride, never looking back. You can't expect your wife to respond in the same way. In fact, she likely can't even relate to hard nose driven "fix it now or you're fired" kind of guy.
I have threatened on this forum, and come close several times in reality to saying exactly what I think and how I feel, complete with all the emotion intact, to my wife. This is a very bad idea. In all honesty, a wife can blow, get mad, THROW THINGS, yell, cry, stomp, call us names and we still get over it pretty quick. Don't do that in reverse. Fair or not, you will probably seriously damage her. As much as it sucks, you really do have to get in control of you before you can expect any progress on her part.
Also, don't forget that if she brings up an issue with you, that has added to her lack of desire, take it to heart, and do your best to fix your part of it. You have to be willing to change some things for her. It is a certainty that she will have issues with you that have contributed to the mess.
It is very difficult to get un-mad. Figure out how to get rid of your anger and frustration for at least a few days. Plan to discuss the situation with her when you are under control.
I know this is obvious, but it is sometimes hard to remember; women are not like us emotionally. Their thought processes are different than ours. THey are spatially oriented differently. You can't apply how you feel as a template for their reaction or actions. That is like comparing apples and oranges. Having said that, they are just as smart and clever as we are, they also have some special gifts that we don't, and the same is true of us. Neither is better than the other, just different. We do need each other (thank God) and I am quite fond of our counterparts...
Good luck, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
NOPkins, Well said. Just my 2 cents worth on having dealt with an angry spouse. I know that some of his anger was justified just as some of Cemar's anger is justified but that does not make a safe place for a spouse to express themselves.
I often told my H that if I were Jesus he would be angry that I was perfect. It seemed to me that he was angry at me for the first 15 years of our marriage and pissed off for the next 3.
When you spouse is angry at you it is very easy to justify ones responses and actions - often responses and actions that only make the situation worse instead of better.
Quote: . In all honesty, a wife can blow, get mad, THROW THINGS, yell, cry, stomp, call us names and we still get over it pretty quick. Don't do that in reverse. Fair or not, you will probably seriously damage her.
My H has always said that if he told me to take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut that I considered it way worse than if I told him the same thing. There is some validity to that. My h in his angry times has hurled extremely hurtful things in my direction. He has been cold, distant, and downright hateful and believe me it did not bring warm fuzzies to my heart no matter how much he later said he was sorry.
If you can get past the anger and see your spouse as the woman that you onced thought hung the moon and stars she might respond to a kinder gentler you. Not a doormat - just a nicer person - the person the people see maybe at the office.
I can only say from my own experience that living with an angry spouse is a sad and lonely place - I often felt like I was "Sleeping with the Ememy" and no one should live like that. You might find if you can let go of the anger that your wife could possibly be sad and lonely and rejects you because she doesn't feel close enough to you to share herself with you.
You don't want to sleep with the ememy. You want to sleep with someone you trust. Maybe if she felt more comfortable and that she wasn't sleeping with the ememy she might want to sleep with you, her friend.
Good luck my friend. I wish you the very best Cemar.
Quote: Luckily you found something that works for you, most of us are really struggling on a solution.
There was no luck involved with my situation, CeMar. I had a choice to make. I could either change, or I would lose my marriage, and I had to figure out what was more important to me.
In my instance, I was the one who brought us to the brink of divorce, but it didn't have to work that way. And getting to the brink of divorce isn't what always has to happen to get people to wake up and realize that things are pretty doggone serious. That's just the way it worked in my situation because both my h and I are such hardheaded, stubborn people.
What I see with you is that you do not love or trust your wife enough to take care of her portion of the marriage, and for I don't know how many years, you've been doing it for her. So what I see here is this:
1) You FEAR to love and trust your wife 2) You take responsibility for your wife's part of the relationship. 3) You CONSTANTLY change to get your wife to change.
What do I mean by this. I think because you fear that your wife would walk away from you and end the marriage rather than put forth any effort to change herself or her part of the relationship, you do not force the issue. You just keep quiet and don't rock the boat because you are MORE afraid of her leaving than you love or trust her.
Because you do not love or trust your wife not to leave you, you take responsibility for your wife's part of the relationship. You do not draw boundaries with her. You do not state, "this is what I need to have a healthy, happy relationship. I am willing to do whatever it takes to get there... I will read books, I will go to counseling, I will change certain behaviors if I can. But if things don't change, I will do the best I can and hang on as long as I can, but I don't know how long that is going to be." However, what you do is, if you make such a statement and she tells you to back off, or she yells, or she cries, or she throws a tantrum, or does whatever it is she does, you cave. YOU back off. You do not lovingly stick to your boundaries and allow her to find her own way through her difficulties. You do not trust that she is a big girl, an adult woman, who can find the answers to her own problems.
Which leads us to number 3. Your wife is a big girl, she can take care of herself, but you don't let her because you are the one changing all the time. And since you are the one who changes all the time, SHE doesn't have to. It's like the two of you are playing a game of tennis. You, on your side, will state, I need love and affection from my wife! (serve)
So you serve that out to her, and you see her standing on her side of the court, you can see she isn't paying attention and you think, oh my gawd, she's not paying attention! so you race to her side of the court (you back off from your statement) and return volley for her. Then you stand there, seeing no one is on your side of the court (but what about MY needs), so you race back to your side of the court to return volley again (you make your statement of needs again), only to stand there and see she still isn't paying attention. And rather than stand firm in who you are and what you need to be happy, you're more worried about the ball dropping (the marriage failing) than you are about playing the game (living life with the woman you married). She isn't playing the game because she doesn't have to. She's just standing there watching you run your fool head off because you don't love or trust her enough to get into the game.
You can't play the game for both of you, CeMar. It doesn't work that way. You are going to run yourself into the ground if you don't stay on your side of the net, and the ball is eventually going to drop anyway because, as you are discovering, you can't play the game for the both of you.
So when I say to you, make changes in yourself, what I mean is, have the courage to stay on your side of the net. Define for yourself who you are, what it is you need from a relationship to be happy, and have the courage to own that.
If your personal convictions rule out you leaving the marriage, you may get to the point where you will need to re-examine those convictions with yourself and with your church pastor (her knowing you'd NEVER leave the marriage gives her all the excuse she needs not to do anything.)
If you think you need to stay in the marriage until the kids are grown and out of the house, then come up with a strategy that is going to get you to that point. Go to counseling on your own if she won't go, do whatever it is you need to do to maintain your sanity. But for gosh sakes, stay on your side of the net and quit doing the work for her or she is NEVER going to get into the game. And if she does let the ball drop... why would you want to be in the game with her anyway?
I am the love martyr, I have been doing everything I can to change my relationship from my end. Lot's of books say you can make change if only 1 cares to try, which is pretty much my situation. But how do you change a marriage from a postion of weakness. I know my wife is not really in love with me anymore, so I don't think it would take muck to push her over the edge into being a WAW and dropping the bomb. From the many things you have said before, it seems that the only way to get the relationship I want, I have to be willing to DIVORCE. It's like an ALL or NOTHING approach. The problem I have with this is when divorce happens, the GUYS end up as HUGE losers while the women make out OK. She most likely would get the 3 kids, the house, half of my 401K, and half of my income as child support, while I get to live in some dive apartment and get the kids every other week end. So I end up with even LESS then I am getting now. THIS SOUNDS EVEN WORSE THEN MY CURRENT SITUATION, where at least I have my loving children around. Let's face it, my wife has the upper hand here. I have a fragile marriage, and I STAND TO LOSE EVERYTHING, while she gets to KEEP IT ALL.
My wife has even commented that I AVOID conflict. My new years resolutions will definitely include standing up for myself. But how can I steer this relationship and get WHAT I DESERVE in the way of physical touch, without this whole thing blowing up in my face, with me on the street, while my wife is laughing all the way to the bank. She has the power, I don't. But it seems the only way to get back some power is to risk divorce, and she probably would be OK with that. My life would be ruined, and hers would go on pretty much the way it is now.
Is there some way to steer this relationship slowly towards giving me more power over it? It's just like the books say, the LD spouse holds ALL the cards, unlsee the HD spouse is willing to go nuclear and drop the warhead on himself. He will be the BIG loser in the short term and maybe even the long term, unless he can find that someone special after the divorce.
Oh yeah, there are tons of ways to get more power, if you want to turn this whole thing into a control issue. Power plays, tactical strategies, one upsmanships, sure, you could make her life a virtual living hell and not even bring up divorce.
What you want, it seems to me, is guaranteed return on investment at, say 15%, no penalities, no bull markets, for however long you decide to stay in it.
I just don't think this scenario exists. Great reward requireds great risk. You want rewards but are willing to take absolutely no risks whatsoever. So, I'd stay in your marriage until your kids are grown and out of the house, get through it as best as you can, then cut bait.
CeMar, I have to say that from your posts, I don't think you are in love with your wife, and I don't think you genuinely care for her feelings either. I think you resent her, I think you have extremely deep anger issues with her, and I think you should seek counseling to deal with those feelings. I don't mean that as a criticism. It really seems to me that you are more interested in controlling your wife and finding a way to MAKE her give you what you think you deserve, and this is all due to personal convictions about marriage that you are unwilling to re-examine.
I'm not sure that there is anyone on these boards that will be able to help you. Several people bring up things for you to consider, and all you do is say, yeah, but... and then launch right back into your tirades and list things out as you see them. Almost every post you've made on these boards is exactly alike. To me, that makes you a guy who listens but does not hear.
My heart felt advice to you, and this is my last posting to you, is that you seek the professional help of a psychologist.
In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Poor Train Guy...
Corri, you know I love your wisdom--you and Johanna are great with your words. Would you mind helping this poor guy whose thread got hijacked by "He who doesn't want to agree with you?"
Happy holidays to all,
Betsey (aka Underdog)
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
This last week has had its good and bad. On the marriage front it has been mostly positive. We had a date night on Saturday after the kids were in bed. We were able to talk a lot. Nothing solved by any means.
The bad has been mostly flu related. W got the flu Sunday. S1 got the flu last night (6 bed changes). So I've been nurse to them for the past few days on little sleep. Fortunately, D3 has been content having Mommy time watch a Christmas special in the afternoon.
We have contacted a MC. Have not heard back yet. SSM arrived in the mail on Friday. Unfortunately with the flu hitting the cover hasn't been cracked yet.
P.S. Underdog - Thanks for trying to bring the thread back to my dilema.
