If I were to introduce a wife to things, the order would be Chapman's 5 languages of love, then MWD's SSM, and only much later PM after I knew she was really dedicated to improvement.
But you have surprised me with your skills so far. Go for it, if it is what you want.
PM has some really interesting concepts. Schnarch likes to say that in marriage there is a high and low desire partner for everything, from sex, to ice cream, to number of children and that the successful marriage involves compromising and communitcating on all of those mixed desire levels. I feel he correctly points out that there is not "right" number of times a couple should have sex, just as there is no "right" number of scoops of ice cream in an ice cream cone, it is just a matter of preference and somethings that couples need to negotiate on.
Another favorite of mine is how he discusses how we become comfortable with sex and if we haven't tried a specific sex act and come to accept it, it is gross and discusting. He talks about why would two people ever want to kiss. But after you have done it a while and aren't afraid of it, it can be fun. Same thing with French kissing, why would two people exchange germs and salavia? But after you become comfortable with it, and it becomes part of how you express yourself with your partner, it is enjoyable. The same thing with intercourse, oral sex, and just about any kinky sex that you can imagine.
Again, I suggest also getting the PM audio book so when you get discouraged, you can get the road map of where he is taking you and get re-motivated to do the heavy reading. I can't tell you the number of times I put that book down and didn't want to reopen it.
A final observation for you this weekend. You say that your wife "wants to be a model." I think that is a fairly unrealistic expectation for just about any woman but a small handful, especially at the age of 25.
Every once in a while I get the opportunity to listen to high school seniors talk about what they expect to accomplish in college and shortly there after. I am always amazed that the number that are going to save the world, get nobel prizes and invent something that will change the world. I then see many of them when they graduate from college and they are thankful to have jobs and positions of responsibility in the business community. Their expectations by the time they are 21 or 22 are much more realistic. By the time they graduate they know they need to pay off college loans, want to make some money to be independent and build careers. There is normally a lot of maturing that happens between age 18 and 22. I am also surprised with the ones that I have seen who are 28 to 30 and being responsible adults contributing to things, thinking of settling down and raising families.
I think I can understand your wife's MLC to a certain extent, in that she still has not reconciled her expectations with the real world (based on what you have written). At some point, she is going to have to scale back some of her expectations but continue to try to live up to some of her ideals. That can be a rough period of time to adjust to things.
Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
YAH Yeah I just read chapter one, and had to get the highlighter to be able to discuss Ch1 with her. It went fairly well. Had it's highs and lows, she got upset a couple of times, especially when she took things personally, but we made some good progress.
We talked about her desire of me to be more honest with her, I finally confessed that as an NG trait I was never truly honest, because I was always afraid of her getting upset at me. Naturally she got upset, and said "What you think I'm some sort of monster..." I told her "see what I mean....." Well we got over that, we talked more about our insecurities. Worked more on reaffirming our love and commitment.
Started discussing what differentiation meant, we talked about the sacrifices we'd make for each other. I told her I accepted her and her sexuality. We then started talking about how we would proceed if and when we allowed OP's in. The funniest thing to me was how SHE was the one that was so unsure about it. For a second it felt like I WAS THE ONE trying to talk her into an open marriage. She even asked me, "what If I close the marriage?" I told her I would be very happy with that. She told me she worried that after starting on that path I would not want to close it up again. Guess she's still very insecure about this.
I can't help in finding this very ironic. I can also tell she has a very heavy double standard... She wants the open marriage, but is still heavily uncomfortable with the idea of me getting to do anything. Sorry but if she wants this she needs to get comfortable with the idea of what OPEN really means. I think it's the same concept as WAW's who want the security of the LBS but are adamant about OM. She wants a committed loving husband for security, but is not willing to give the same to me. Well just like LBS's who say " Go with OM if he is so great, see if he really is better!" I am doing "Ok you say this open marriage thing is so great, let's do it!"
I'm starting to think there's a chance she might decide that a closed marriage is preferable.
Overall the talk was very therapeutic the main focus is still improving our own sex life before OP's get involved. Going to back off, all R talk until tomorrow when we agreed to discuss CH2. If she brings up the issues we discussed about an open marriage, I'll just let her know that fixing us is more important, and that if she feels so insecure, then hopefully fixing us will make those insecurities go away. (It would be even better if after fixing us she decides I am too precious to risk PERIOD.)
who wouldn't want a double standard? Well if you only listen to your "id", then
of course we'd make our spouses monogamous and we could do whatever we wanted...
But (I'll leave Freud now and mix metaphors) we have consciences and morals and a self image that doesn't really allow for such double standards
But a part of me? HECK YES Let me go "meet" Brad Pitt and see h LATER...
or some 25 y/o with serious abs (and my h is in great shape!)
but we grow up, we get real, we make and keep our commitments.
Here's the thing, whatever you decide learn to
SEE THE VALUE OF KEEPING YOUR COMMITTMENTS (in everything)
B/C broken agreements mess up lives
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25 I'm adamant in no double standards in this. I don't want her to just get a free pass. She has to consider all the outcomes no matter how painful they may be. I'm not going to lie and say I wouldn't enjoy myself, but she wanted to enjoy the lifestyle while I took all the pain. Not a very fair model if you ask me. I want for both of us to share in both pains and joys. I'm really curious to see what her feelings would be once I start seeing people.
Well a side of me just hopes that maybe this will just turn out to be one giant game of chicken, and we can emerge from this stronger and more committed to each other. Twice she has mentioned what would happen if she closed the marriage. I found those comments interesting. I also find it amusing how much it freaks her out when I show interest in the lifestyle. I guess it rattles her previous notion that she had me wrapped around her little finger.
So yeah right now I'm in rebuilding intimacy mode, and eventually will give her what she wants. We will see from there if it's really what we both wanted. Hopefully we'll be strong enough to survive whatever happens.
Log entry Well it feels good to know that I went a whole weekend without feeling like I needed to log an entry.
Friday was nice I continued giving her that positive reassurance I have been giving her lately. She wore a beautiful dress, and we went out to dinner. We each had 2 drinks and had planned to go to checkout the local bar scene. Once outside the first bar she changed her mind and decided she wanted ice cream and to go home. She kept apologizing for "spoiling" the night but I kept insisting it was no problem. At the same time we were very flirty all night. Once home there was a lot of heavy touching and cuddling, 3 times she reminded me it was that time. All three times I gracefully backed off and told her it was no problem. It really wasn't. I completely wanted to respect her wishes. The third time she made a move and we ml.
The next morning everything started well. I offered to go get us some coffee. She did mention that at first she wasn't in the mood last night. Worried that she might accuse me of forcing her again, I immediately apologized and told her it was not my intention at all to force her. She said she understood, and that she did it willfully.
I took a long shower, and by the time I was done she said she no longer wanted coffee. I could tell she was visibly upset. She took about an hour nap, and afterwards was still mad. She saw me get my things ready to go to my weekly tournament and then got more upset, because I made plans without her. I tried explaining that I had tried, but she didn't seem interested in any of it. Well we had what you could call a low intensity argument. In it I tried to find out why she was so upset, yet she wouldnt tell me why. Finally she confessed that she wanted me to go get coffee so she could make me my favorite pan cakes while I was gone. Since I had ruined her surprise she was upset at me.
Knowing she was upset for a silly reason she tried to get mad at me for anything else. Very silly yes I know. Yet I was actully a little touched, I apologized for ruining her plans, but also let her know that it was not fair for her to get upset over that. I told her it should be punishment enough that my extra long shower kept me from enjoying her delicious pancakes. Before anyone misreads this incident I would like to point out that it was very minor, and besides her being mildly upset at me we both handled it very well. I think it should be a model of how we handle conflict from now on.
I then left to play in my tournament where I got 2nd place and took a prize home, finally!!! Later that night we had dinner and started watching a new show on DVD.
Sunday was nice too. I went and got us coffee, we discussed passionate marriage, we ran errands together, and started packing, and looking for rentals in our new assignment. A very good day indeed.
We discussed passionate marriage on Friday and Sunday, covering one chapter each day. She has been mostly receptive to it, and we have had some wonderful discussions about the state of our R, what we can do to fix it, and even discussed how an open marriage will look like. I can sense she may be having some doubts, especially when it comes to letting me go. There was even an instance when she said "IF we decide to have an open marriage" I found this comment interesting since before she seemed adamant that it was not optional. While I do admit I would prefer it closed, I think we could make it work, IF and only IF, we become very strong first.
Passionat Marriage (PM) has been a tough read I have to admit, but we have gotten a lot out of it. My only concern is that he devotes the first 2 Ch to telling you how screwed up your R is. The 3rd Ch which we will discuss today focuses on telling you that other people managed to fix their problems. What me and her are desperate to know now is how to fix things!!! He better get there soon. .
Overall one of the best weekends in months, were starting to have more of these and that is good. I'm even happy we had that little issue on Saturday since it showed that we can resolve fights in positive ways. I can't complain I'm grinning ear to ear.
I know what you mean about a book "getting to the good part" but usually they have a process
You kind of have to go with it.
I'm sure you're both looking forward to the assignment and that happy feeling (been there, done that and it IS fun--kids make it crazy fun when they're young, not so much in high school when they think it's the end of the world).
My question is, since you know you have to build a stable strong m that doesn't break at stress, and but for this minor quibble, you guys have not had a lot of experience in it.
On the contrary, you guys mostly fight in a destructive way (I know this "fight" was progress & I'm not dissing it)
I'm saying you have to build on that for a LOT longer....seriously
before discussing the open stuff.
I just don't get why one weekend of only a little fighting...and weird communication triggers yet another discussion about something you are SO NOT ready for...
(btw she cannot get mad about ml and though she apparently wasn't really mad about it,
the fact that you would worry that you had mistakenly FORCED yourself upon her....is SAD)
my point is, just focus on the marriage you have NOW and see what you feel like in a year.
Is it HER that brings this stuff up all the time? Doesn't SHE know you two are on shifting ground and trying to find a solid place to stabilize FIRST?
The more experience you two have together that is healthy and loving and conflict resolving,
the stronger you become. IT's not something to risk losing any time soon.
Why not focus on building more weekends like you just had,
instead of discussing how to possibly throw it all away?
As my Army class leader once said, "Saw the wood in front of you, before you ask for more." Make sense?
Glad you had a good weekend though.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Sounds like your wife enjoys drama, but then again, she is in an MLC and probably trying to figure out herself. My advice to you is to figure out her languages of love (sounds like you have) and make sure that you make her feel loved multiple times each an every day. I do that for my wife and she enjoys feeling so loved and cherished. She knows and has said that there probably isn't anyone who would every make her feel like that.
Schnarch should be a real eye opening experience for your wife and challenge her self-image. I really wouldn't be surprised if she wants as some point to close Pandora's box on open marriage and bisexuality. Hopefully, she will use some of the principals of managing change in marriage to help her come to grips with herself and come out the end as a mature woman who wants to be your wife.
If she were my wife and wanted to explore those feelings (which I think is playing with fire), I would go to a legitimate spa and get a couples massage where two women massaged us while we were in the same room. That way it would be "sex-like" but not involve actual sex with others.
Wait till you get to the section in PM on doing and being done. My wife has "done" me a few times and they have all been earth shaking & memorable.
Remember that you can self-soothe and change yourself for better by focusing on the best of your emotions, character and morals. I really think that Schnarch is right about marriage (a long term multi-decade marriage) being hard work, but if done right, incredibly rewarding.
Schnarch was too intense for my wife (and some parts for me). I wish you the best of luck. Focus on your GAL, as you really need to center yourself and find yourself, especially if you are doing PM.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
First I want to start by saying we have found PM to be well... Kinda mild. Saying we are extremely adventurous would be putting it mildly. I have found that his writing can be rather detailed at times, but up until Ch 3 he has not described anything that hasn't happened or doesn't regularly already happen in our bedroom. We kinda laughed at some of the couples since some of their hang ups wouldn't even phase us. Yet as YAH mentioned PM really does challenge the average WAW to re-examine myself. I see it as a godsend to have a book that tells her it's ok to be her own individual while staying committed to me. (differentiation) At the same time it's another reminder to me that I need a strong identity of my own. (that along with GAL and learning how not to be NG)
She is still skeptical but I can tell she sees merit in some of schnarch's assertions. I can tell that PM was definitely written with the recovering WAW in mind.
After reading Ch 1-3 her MLC totally makes sense.....
25
I understand why it is so important for us to wait. Also I understand that 1 or 2 weekends is just the start. My perspective on this is from remembering those hard weekends a few months back where everything seemed lost. Having a weekend like the last one is heaven compared to that. So I'm trying to view happiness as a step by step process. Any step forward is a cause for celebration.
As for discussing an open marriage, part of the deal of fixing us was that we were getting fixed to survive an open marriage. I recognize that things may or may not change along the way. We may both decide closed is better, but until that day we are preparing each other with lots of reassurances, love, and affection. Also knowing her amazing ability to table issues and emotions, I think it's a good thing that we discuss these issues.
I also like to know where she stands, I try not to pester her, and indeed do keep OP talk to minimum, but knowing her feelings helps me prepare emotionally.
Also as yah said we need to find good outlets right now porn and strip clubs work, maybe we might up the ante maybe we'll tone it down. She wants to be comfortable with who she is and how she expresses it. I want us to find something we are both comfortable with. 25 you are right baby steps are necessary, I'm just happy where we are now.
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