I'm not talking about your life beyond your R with W. I agree, you are doing great.
I am talking about how you handle your current R with W.
Do I think you will reconcile if you change your behavior? No, not really. I think there would perhaps be a better chance, but it would probably be like going from none to slim. Really, I'm not even sure that if she did a 180 and wanted to recommit to the M that you'd be up for it, you might well be caught off-guard. But your passivity right now lets you feel comfortable in terms of being "right" while letting things (apparently) inevitably follow the "wrong" course. You get to do nothing and "win" in your own head.
Just *try* rereading PM. Figure out where YOU are and what YOU want and actively define and enforce YOUR boundaries, while letting the chips fall where they may. Maybe you are already doing that. I'm pretty sure you think you are already doing that. But, from here, it sounds a lot more like passive avoidance + withholding.
I hear what you're saying. And yes, my C asked me what I thought my reaction would be if she suddenly did a 180 back into the M. My planned course of action is simply to suggest we work that out together while going to counseling. I think we have shrunk so far from each other that doing it successfully together and without a C's help would probably not work.
Again, I think you're mischaracterizing what I'm doing. I'm not interested in "being right", I'm interested in doing the right thing by upholding my commitment. I don't see those two things as being the same.
What is it you think I'm withholding?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
TL Maybe it is because of the tone of the words being typed as opposed to the words being said but it seems to me, simply reading the words on the page that you are....well...just there. And that by being there, you get to say you upheld your commitment.
To me, this isn't upholding your commitment.
The commitment you took was to love and honor, to cherish your partner. As she isn't a partner and you don't look at her as one, you are not honoring that commitment. You are simply stubborn.
It seems like there is a message you are sending your children that just doesn't jive right about relationships and love and commitment
I have loved my wife for my entire marriage. I still do. However, given that she has told me with her words, and backed up with her actions, the following:
1. I don't love you. 2. I don't want to be married to you. 3. I wish I hadn't married you. 4. I intend to divorce you before the end of the year.
What, exactly, do you think I should do? To pursue her would be wrong and only drive her away. She refuses to discuss it. She refuses to go to counseling. And she's been playing this game for the better part of 4 years.
I think the message I'm sending to my children is that I have honored my commitment and been patient with her, and taken every opportunity to work on this relationship that she has been willing to engage in. And I spent the better part of the last 4 years DB'ing my ass off.
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the feedback and challenges. However, I don't think you guys are looking at the big picture and what has already taken place. I'm not the one who wants the divorce here. And I made that clear to her, and also clearly told her I loved her, wanted to go back to MC, and work at this until we can fly on our own. She flatly refuses. After everything I've done, there's not really any more I can do.
As I said before, she has not demonstrated commitment to this marriage for at least 8 years now (as the adultery itself supposedly began in 2003). Instead of simply telling me I'm "doing it wrong"...what, specifically, do you think I should do at this point...keeping in mind I'm coming off of 4-5 years of doing the DB thing already.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
It sounds to me like, for some reason, you two just don't like the fact that I've resigned myself to this and pretty much moved on mentally. I would say, given the fact that I've done everything that I think can be done, I'm, well, done unless she changes her mind.
So given her refusal to seriously engage me and this marriage in more than a superficial way for many years now, what specifically do you think can be done in the context of a DB mindset. Feel free to ask any questions for more info and I'll be happy to share as honestly as I can.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
How have you engaged in the marriage in more than a superficial way for many years?
Clearly disengagement and apathy (neither of which is the same as detachment) has not worked to change anything. Perhaps it is time for one of you to do something different, and you only control yourself.
A clear DB principle is: STOP doing what isn't working. You've been doing what is not working for years, and seem determined to continue doing so.
A strong, direct, clear discussion in which you honestly express your thoughts and feelings in a non-needy way has VERY little to do with the desperate, clingy, needy, enmeshed, overly-egotistical kind of pursuit that MWD warns against.
I'm no expert, and am certainly not perfect, but I'm also not new to this.
I haven't engaged the marriage in a superficial way. She has. As I think I've mentioned many times in this thread...the only reason we stopped doing things together, stopped dating, stopped talking, is because she became unreceptive to it, avoided it, didn't want it. I really didn't disengage until April/May when she got serious about divorce. Like I said...most marriages can probably be saved, but not all will, and we all have to recognize when we're reached our limit. I think you guys are assuming my current attitude has existed for years, but that's not the case. Just really for a couple of months. All I am willing to do at this point is keep this marriage on life support while she finishes getting her ducks in a row so she can pull the plug. If she (and she probably won't) changes her mind and decides she wants to go back to MC, that she's not ready yet, then I would most likely give it a shot if she were serious in a way she has never been before. However, I don't like, respect, or want the person she has "become" (or reverted back to?). I'm not going to divorce her for the simple reason that I made a commitment, and yes the commitment was to do a great many things, not just keep the marriage on life support. But I've done those things; she has not. I gave her a safe place to land when she had royally screwed up. I protected her reputation and treated her with respect in front of our children even though she really didn't deserve it. I went to counseling and met the needs she told me she wanted me to meet. That IS loving and cherishing. But all I can control is myself. All I can do is create an environment where our marriage could grow and flourish if we both want it to, and I did that. Her actions, and words, demonstrate that she chooses otherwise, and I may wish things had turned out differently, but they haven't. Which is why I've disengaged (which I think is accurate). I don't really see it as being apathetic but I suppose one could look at it that way.
Remember, she didn't stay in the marriage last time because she liked how I changed; she stayed because she didn't want to be separated from her kids and risk her shameful behavior getting out (we live in a small town, etc.), and because she really didn't have anywhere to go. So she took advantage of the situation.
I didn't come back here to work on saving this marriage. I came back to these boards to read up on all the different situations, problems, and issues arising from their divorces, and to start dealing with the reality of our upcoming divorce and hopefully get solid feedback when the issues start cropping up for me and the kids as she pursues this.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
I'd also like to point out that if she is clearly stating she doesn't want relationship discussions, then pushing that on her, regardless of how it's handled from my end, still does nothing but cause resentment and pushes the S away. And yes, the last time we talked about it, a couple of months ago, I simply told her that I loved her, that I wanted the marriage, and that I thought rather than go round and round the hamster wheel ourselves, we should do it with an MC right from the start this time, and I was willing to begin immediately. She said no thanks.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
So, you've tried being passive guy, you've tried being direct guy.... Try something different.
What might that be? How can you keep getting into the old fights if you are doing something different?
Finally, step back. You are very defensive, not detached here. That points to being very defensive, not detached (rather oppositional) in your own life. Get clinical. Step back. Look.
From a distance, you and W look to be jabbing each other equally, hurting each other through explicitly explained withdrawal of commitment. You've both done that.
