WAW, and a bisexual open marriage part 3

[25yearsmlc]

PS

While it's true that examples of respect are partly based on what NOT to do, e.g., it's also important to tell her what you DO want.

Obviously, NO yelling, berating, or sniping and no interrupting your spouse while they're talking.

ANY of thi^^^ behavior, in public, is abhorrent.

One doesn't cut off affection from their spouse b/c one doesn't punish one's spouse, ever. Let me repeat that for emphasis. There's no place in a marriage for punishing a spouse, or "teaching them a lesson". EVER.

If you feel hurt, you express that with words, and sometimes, with SHORT LIVED retreating. Apologies are accepted graciously, even if you're not ready to "make nice."

If they engage in dealbreaking behavior and know it, you leave, NOT to punish, but to live your life by your rules and boundaries.

See the difference?


What do you do, to show respect? You'll have to come up with what your view of respect is but

being listened to, being welcomed home, acknowledging the spouses entrance/return into a room--not ignoring--demonstrating interest in their lives/interests are essentials.

(Maybe she'll read Dale Carnegie's book on "How to Win Friends & Influence People" if she doesn't know about asking people questions about themselves with follow up & interest...That stuff WORKS in life and careers. I don't know anything about her family and it's possible she hasn't seen smart, respectful people interacting).


You show respect by not interrupting your spouse, and while they are talking, you don't simply ponder your next volley/retort,

You listen actively to what they are saying.


No sighing when they speak, no rolling of eyes. (Both of those behaviors have been found to correlate with feelings of contempt for your spouse. They are factors in divorce, btw. So those behaviors have to be nipped in the bud. We all have done it, but we can all stop it.)



Speaking/acting in their love language is loving AND respectful.


Try to think of some specifics you can visualize so she'll know what you mean.
Good luck!
((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

[quote]For instance, one of my best friends (Army Vet too) was attractive, funny and smart, and single. But she really wanted to meet the "right guy". I asked her what she was looking for in a man and she sent me a typed single spaced page, fully filled in, of what she HAD TO HAVE in a man. Almost everything was a "dealbreaker"...

she's still single...get it?

Very interesting...also, I have a theory about what we REALLY want...esp if we have a child.

My Caveman Theory...


I like to think if I were home in the cave with an infant, and my h went out to hunt & gather, that I could count on him to come back with some meat or berries and not empty handed, while our nursing baby cries from hunger. If there were scary noises at night, I like to think my h would not hide behind me, but would go investigate with his club, while I protect the child. I'd back him up to be sure, but I"d want him in front. As a feminist, a part of me feels a tad embarrassed, but as a mother, (& a smaller person than my h,) I'm more & more comfortable admitting it. I feel differently now than I did before I had kids. I never ever planned on being a sahm, but I'm lucky I could be one.

Charles Mee wrote a play called "Big Love" (nothing to do with polygamy) that encapsulates the demands on men and women better than anything I've read or seen elsewhere. The male lead describes how hard (and unfair) it is for a man to have to be "ready to Kill or die" and in the next breath, be "ready to make love or comfort a dying friend, tenderly"...


Yes, we do expect both the "sensitive guy" and the "killer caveman" bringing home the meat. Or at least almost all of my friends and I do. It's Not easy to be a man today. And the monologue the lead female had, was a monologue about women today. It was great- described our dilemmas about being strong independent modern women, who aren't "needy" & can contribute income/"meat & berries" to the storage pile in the cave, and yet somehow we ALSO have to play the role of "make him feel like a man", and nurture in the home.

[b]Expectations matter. But we have to know what they are.[/b]

[Queen_of_Swords]

Well your caveman theory has a lot going for it. Although our attitudes may be modified, our brains are still back there in hunter /survival mode and we still have to nurture this incredibly needy little person for a long, long time and need help to do it.

It was great- described our dilemmas about being strong independent modern women, who aren't "needy" & can contribute income/"meat & berries" to the storage pile in the cave, and yet somehow we ALSO have to play the role of "make him feel like a man", and nurture in the home.

Something I struggle with a lot TBH. I had to become my own protector and take on a masculine role quite young.

[greenblue90]

Scylla interesting read

25
I'm an alpha male at work, no doubt about it. Which makes knowing how terrible the home sitch is even worse. Don't feel too comfortable dropping my branch but rest assured I know how to lead soldiers in combat and the confidence and strict adherence to standards it takes.

As for the list I need to be careful to make them goals for the two of us rather than a list of demands. If she refuses to even work on them. Then I don't think I want to stay with her. As long as my demands are not unreasonable as you said, why would I not want someone that wants to work at making me happy.

I have been asking myself why can't I be happy. Why can't I have demands and needs. Don't want to be M to someone who does not care about my needs.

As for the caveman theory I can definitely see where I have been a cave man everywhere but home. My W has demanded a meek mild mannered man without realizing that it was that crazy spark I had that drew her to me in the first place.

I have come to realize that there is a difference between a good natured man, and a submissive one. A good natured man has sensitive qualities, but does not sacrifice his edge for it.

As for the goals I am going to approach them by saying that they are important to me, and that I don't thing things would work out if we dont work them. I know she will try an excuse to change the subject, and avoid the issue but I must stay strong.

[Young at Heart]

....As for the list I need to be careful to make them goals for the two of us rather than a list of demands. If she refuses to even work on them. Then I don't think I want to stay with her. As long as my demands are not unreasonable as you said, why would I not want someone that wants to work at making me happy.

....I have been asking myself why can't I be happy. Why can't I have demands and needs. Don't want to be M to someone who does not care about my needs.

...I have come to realize that there is a difference between a good natured man, and a submissive one. A good natured man has sensitive qualities, but does not sacrifice his edge for it.

As for the goals I am going to approach them by saying that they are important to me, and that I don't thing things would work out if we dont work them. I know she will try an excuse to change the subject, and avoid the issue but I must stay strong.

I think that goal setting with you wife is a wonderful idea, in the right context. I would suggest that it be done and negotiated with a therapist or that a preliminary set be drawn up and taken to a marriage weekend with one of the marriage workshop groups. I think that you are correct in that it could quickly degenerate into a "set of demands" or a power play. Your wife from what you have posted is into her MLC rebellion mode, so keep that in mind, especially if she goes off the deep end.

As to your needs and your demands. Your needs are what GAL is all about. But your needs as a husband also include the needs of your family (the cave dwellers you protect). Since you are in theory no longer a Nice Guy, you shouldn't be needy, although that is a hard feeling to let go off, but it is part of the price of being a "man."

Once your wife starts to understand the 5 languages of love and make sure you feel loved in your LL then you will get that void you are feeling filled.

There is an incredible difference between a good natured man and a submissive man. The book NMMNG is all about men raised by women to defer to women and their authority at the expense of their masculinity. I think that "centered and integrated men" do things to make themselves happy, proud and complete and the women who are lucky enough to be in their lives make them feel loved and take pride in the accomplishments of their spouse. It will happen to you (maybe with your wife if she is willing to change).

While I think it is important for you to develop goals for yourself as part of your GAL, you developing goals for the two of you, is in my opinion a bit premature.

Let me give you a few "vows" that I made to myself as part of my GAL while I was in an SSM.


[list]
[*]By xxxxx date, I will be in a loving relationship and having sex x times a week, even if it means that I divorce my wife and find someone else.

[*]I will not have sex with my wife if she uses it to hurt me emotionally or that my wife uses as a weapon against me.

[*]I will provide my wife with love and I will support any changes she tries to make to help rebuild our marriage.

[*]I will insiste that we go to a sex therapist and will work with my wife and the therapist to try to save our marriage

[*]I will continue to read and study relationship books so I learn more about relationships so I can be a better husband and father, even it ends up being a better husband for a new wife.

[*]I will regularly remind myself that I am responsible for my own happiness and I am not dependent on others for my happiness.

[*]by xxxx date, I will have run my first half marathon

[*]By xxx date I will sign up for another major organized distance run

[*]I will loose xx pounds every yy months until I reach a weight of zzz pounds

[*]I will do things with old friends who I have let slip away

[*]I will take up mountain climbing and hiking that I dropped out of 30 years ago

[*]I will find time to be with my children and connect to them so that I am part of their life

[*]In addition to loosing weight, I will start taking better care of my health so I can have a long happy life.

[*]I shall travel more (hopefully with my wife) and enjoy the world around me

[*]I will take some college/professional courses without my wife that include men and women to broaden the type of people I know and communicate with.

I am not sure that the above are the best goals, but they were some of mine and I ultimately shared them with my wife in therapy. She was very frightened by the timetable, but understood (through my actions) that I was changing and had changed dramatically and was had promised myself that certain things were going to happen. She also understood that she could change and be part of my future or watch me change and leave her. It was totally her choice. The therapist we saw made it clear that my wife had a choice, but she also was going to live with her choice.

Good luck to you, you probably can think of a better set of GAL goals, but I would focus them mostly on you and things that you have some control over and not on things that your wife has control over. To me GAL is about changing myself for the better and finding knowledge and happiness and allowing that change to be a role model for my wife to let her know that change is possible.

GB you have the added problem of a wife with an MLC. I just had a very angry wife, who was deeply angry at me. My wife knew who she was and what she wanted out of life and luckily part of what she deeply wanted was me.

[greenblue90]

All
Well last night we made a major breakthrough. It all started with her calling me a moron. I told her that I would not tolerate her talking to me like that, and that things would be better if she didn't call me names and disrespect me so much. She got upset said that was impossible, and that she didn't see any other way of staying married to me unless she got to treat me that way. I told her I would not stand for that and would rather just get divorced. We had stuff to do so she asked if we could shelf the fight. I did but told her it was important to me that we discuss this last night. We went about doing our things, and even rented a movie to watch. We watched it and halfway in between declared she wanted augmentations. The movie had a lot of well endowed women. I paused the movie to reassure her and we even got a little frisky. We almost ML but then she stopped me and said we should finish watching the movie.

We did so I turned off the tv afterwards and began to talk. This lead into a 30 min fight and a 3 hour heart to heart. I started by telling her that I often felt disrespected and did not want a M where I am treated this way. Of course this lead into the fight mentioned above. She was adamant she wanted out I told her it was fine. She said she wanted to stay, but that she didn't want to change, even went as far as suggesting we just have a sham marriage. I told her all those options would not make me happy, and that I'd rather just be alone. Finally I asked her if she would be happy with those options. She said she wouldn't either. So then I told her if we are going to do this we need to do this right, she needed to give herself the chance for this to work. I could tell she was starting to reluctantly agree.

We talked about a lot of things here's the highlights:

1. I told her I needed respect, that I would respect her and expected the same.

2. I told her I wanted a good sex life this included both increased frequency, and being able to express myself sexually. We used to be very open and were comfortable and enjoyed talking about sex. At some point sex became taboo. At one point she made me feel like I should be ashamed of being a sexual being. I told her I wanted that comfort back.

3. I told her I want to be #1 both emotionally and sexually. That only me and her were allowed to meet each others needs. If OP's were to be introduced it should be merely to add a little spice ocassionally. I told her I would not neglect her and she couldn't neglect me.

4. I told her I was tired of living like a divorce could happen at any minute. I told her I wanted stability and was tired of living in constant fear. She said she felt the same way. I also added that if OP's were to be ever allowed I needed to feel that we were so strong that no OP could tear us apart. She agreed, we spent a long time reassuring each other about our mutual love. This was a major milestone for her I could tell. Since she finally told me she didn't want to lose me and why.

5. We talked about the jerks in her past that hurt her. Will not go into too many details, but we spent time showing that I was not them. That I was different, better.

6. We talked about her desire for independence, I pledged to give her more within reason.

7. We vowed to get rid of jealousy, and to not let it ruin our M. She confessed she turned down ML because she worried I only wanted her because of the girls in the movie. I reassured her that's not the case. We talked about activities which were taboo before because of our insecurities but wanted to work on. We agreed that porn was a positive experience and would do that more. She still felt jealous about strip clubs, despite having enjoyed herself. I told her I'd take her to a male strip club. I'm pretty secure with myself and told her that I didnt mind because it is extremely rare to take a stripper whether male or female home. Most importantly I told her that I recognized that she felt like it would only be fair to do so. Ultimately those type of places don't worry me, I'm secure enough to know she won't leave me for a male or female stripper. We were pretty kinky in the past I want to go back to that.

Our insecurities and jealousy in essence killed a great sex life. I want it back.

Overall last night was a great success she finally was able to tell me she cares about our M, and I can tell she is ten times more willing to put in the handwork. I can tell we are both very happy right now.

[25yearsmlc]

GB,

I'm glad you got to say those things to her. You needed to and the opportunity presented itself so good for you. I don't want to rain on your parade okay?

As you know, I see a lot of risk in your course of action. I don't want to go through those again, and be a big downer, so I'll just toss out a few things that are potential pitfalls I see, other than the whole "OP" issue.

which I see as ultimately fatal to your m b/c the rare couple who can manage an open m, seem very different than you two are, esp your w.

Here's a few things to iron out from your post:

[i]We watched it and halfway in between declared she wanted augmentations. The movie had a lot of well endowed women.

[/i]She's very very insecure.

Seeing well endowed women triggered insecurity in her, Yet you want to watch porn b/c you say it's fun...but porn films don't have flat chested women much.


[b]I told her I was tired of living like a divorce could happen at any minute. I told her I wanted stability and was tired of living in constant fear. She said she felt the same way[/b]

Good stuff. Makes total sense.

That only me and her were allowed to meet each others needs. If OP's were to be introduced it should be merely to add a little spice ocassionally

This is another negotiation. And it's vague. Which "needs"? Who decides when you're ready? Or if their "needs" are not met...And what if the other person isn't ready for OPs? (Obvious to US here, is that both would have to be in agreement, but I doubt that's obvious to her. Or that it will be in a month....)


We vowed to get rid of jealousy, and to not let it ruin our M. She confessed she turned down ML because she worried I only wanted her because of the girls in the movie.

1) "vowed to get rid of jealousy"...hope you have some ideas how...b/c it's easier said than done.

She says her insecurites come from watching porn AND that it makes her not want to ML, so it hurts your sex life...but you want porn in your sex life b/c....it helps?? What??? I see contradictions around a lot.

2) some of the very things you two engage in almost guarantee to fuel jealousy and insecurity, SEE ^^^^


esp on her end. She's revealed insecurites AND double standards AND jealousy many times.


Maybe You guys need to be spending your energy on building on the reassurance you have finally articulated, and building a good sex life NOW between you two only, which is part of the reassurance.


Worse, her way of fighting her fears, is by attacking you,

or by seeking out attention from other sex patners, so she can hurt you,

and make you feel insecure too. Seems to me

It's a dangerous combination to have those conditions, combined with an affinity for porn that triggers her insecurities AND her withdrawal of sex, AND then to want to have 3rd parties! And in the back of her mind and yours, as you two ML, will be the question "does he/she want OP now? Am I ENOUGH???? That seems structured for undermining one's confidence and NOT being reassuring at all.


But you are in a place to accomplish your other goals of reassuring each other. Why can't you just focus on that now? And for the next year?

Yes, YEAR...

Your lifeboat of marriage, was sinking fast til when? 24 hours ago?

There's no way you as a couple are ready to rock a boat that has just had a massive leak possibly plugged up... but


GB, You think one good R talk means [b]"I can tell we are both very happy right now.[/b] So it's all fixed? The boat of your m, can cross the ocean now AND survive a storm tossed its' way for "some spicing up"...??

No, it can't. The boat needs an overhaul and protection and loving care...and calm waters.


It's going to take more time. She lacks basic conflict resolution skills. She thinks all feelings and attractions must be acted on or she's being "repressed" as opposed to being an adult making a trade off we all make in our daily lives.
She has a temper and will lose it again.
Be patient. Be consistent with your boundaries.


My "bossypants" suggestion is that you Just Focus on the marriage between you two for now...

Elsewhere You said that

if OP's were to be ever allowed I needed to feel that we were so strong that no OP could tear us apart.

THAT TAKES TIME GB....

She agreed, we spent a long time reassuring each other about our mutual love. This was a major milestone for her I could tell. Since she finally told me she didn't want to lose me and why.


Well I'm glad she's able to say she loves you, that she doesn't want to lose you and that a "major milestone" has been reached.


But you have to realize that it's going to be 2 steps forward and 1 back.

So you have to steel yourself for the other shoe to drop with her. She won't get c, or t, so .....

I don't know what else to say except, please work on THIS relationship a good long time before even bringing up the topic of OPs..

.I don't understand your need to discuss what is only a future possibility so often, frankly.



I mean, do you think you two are near ready now? I mean no offense, but do you?


Can you give yourself at least an internal minimum timeline for solidifying this R?

[Young at Heart]

GB;

I applaud you for being able to communication like that with your wife and allowing the conversation to be delayed, but coming back to it.

Interesting that fear and insecurity are big issues for her and part of what might be driving her.

I said it before, so I might as well say it again....

.....First, at some point you need to tell her that the two of you need to go in for some joint marriage counseling (prefferably with a liberal minded sex therapist since bisexuality on your W's part and OM are going to be discussion topics). The two of you would be better off it the counseling were to happen sooner than later.

.....Fourth and final comment is you are probably ready to read Dr. David Schnarch's book the Passionate Marriage (PM). My advice is get the audio book on CD along with the book. The book will be a really hard clinical read, but after the audio CD, you will at least have a road map and summary to motivate you though the classroom homework reading. Schnarch is somewhat "kink friendly" but more importantly he views marriage as very very hard work. Your comments about marriage and compromise suggest to me that you might find PM to provide you with insights into how you can calm (self soothe) yourself in regards to jealousy and loosing your wife, how you can stretch yourself while you and your wife grow, and how you can focus on true intimacy with your wife.

I wish you and your wife the best of luck.

[Young at Heart]

I also think that 25 makes some great points.

[greenblue90]

25
I agree with every point you have made, even the part about the
Porn. It's just that doing that seemed to help us relax and loosen up. She seemed very secure for a while but has been on an insecurity relapse lately. I have been trying to make her feel attractive by dropping random compliments.

But I totally agree we need to give ourselves time.