It's Over

[Denver_2010]

Update...

So... Today was a landmark day/event in my sitch. This will be a long update. I really would appreciate whoever sticks around to read it all. It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific.

Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.

Denver, first off, all is not lost, necessarily.

I read it all. I did laugh...fwiw...( cough cough) ahem...

The text conversation and phone conversation UNTIL the end, pretty much was batshit stuff and you know it.

You may have been calm on the phone but the problem was that you were ON the phone at all...you know this already of course...
[color:#FF0000]
Here's the deal...I'll post about the end of the convo but I'm concerned about your repeated statements that you would file b/c you "have no choice" AND you must if you are "self respecting". Sort of paints you into a corner. In a way, how can you NOT file, something?

Are there legal seps there? Can you file a warning letter or something less than div? AND don't forget, here, only 1/3 of divorces filed are ever finalized...

The bad news is, that sometimes I think she has you by the ba!!s and NOT

in an attractive way. That can help a situation when you are compensating

and doing 180s but at some point it has to equalize out. She KNOWS she's abusing you...and she continues...enough already.

Sorry but it's just my first impression. YES I know you were a horrible evil troll to her

and she was the perfect wife, always, (here's a tiny dose of reality-

having a batshit son isn't easy, and it's NOT attractive to a lot of men, nor are there many who want the chance to father HIM.

THIS she will learn soon, if she doesn't already know it..)...

She has baggage most men won't deal with unless she's the hottest babe around AND OR has some serious money. AND Or unless they're losers. I dated a bit when h was gone for 2 years and have to say I was quickly guarded with younger men who seemed to want "a cougar with money" (God, I hope that doesn't sound as weird reading it as it is to write it)

But as the w of a doctor and a L myself, I was surprised at how many blatant users are out there. Young men looking for a mommy figure or a place to live with benefits. Not some great love or even great sex (no, I didn't but I have friends who did) and so, I just don't think reality and time on her own, is bad for your cause. UNLESS YOU KEEP FIGHTING...

[/color]
Call it intuition or whatever you like, but I had a nagging feeling last night that W was with OM. I broke a cardinal rule and did a drive by of her house.
Denver, Denver, Denver....you big goof ball...I'm not even going to comment about ^^^^that... b/c that's how goofy this ^^^ stuff is.


I walked past him and went straight up the stairs to W's bedroom door. It was locked.

Let's hope she doesn't file charges...tell me your name is on the deed???

Fortunately, it was very easy to unlock from the outside. It took me literally 3 seconds.

Ahhhh nooooo..... Sorry YOUR HONOR,- NOT GUILTY B/C DENVER WAS CRAZY...


I realized that I hadn't checked the toilet room. You know that 4' x 4' room where you go to take a cr*p.
I checked the door and it was locked. Again, easy as pie to open. AND there he was... OM sitting on the toilet, underwear down at his ankles in the dark. YOUR HONOR...NOT GUILTY--DENVER had to go to the bathroom...and didn't know it was occupied...


Me: 'wow... what an a**hole you are' Literally...

OM: 'ugh, uh... I'm sorry, I'm sorry' Indeed you are...a sorry OM....

Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family... why don't you be a man and do what is right?'

OM: 'I know, I know, I'm sorry. I will leave right now'

Me: 'No, I don't give a sh!t if you leave. But why don't you be a man about all of this? You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife. And do you know what you are doing to that little boy in the other room?'

Just to chime in for the fun of it, you DO know this ^^^ doesn't even make sense, right? I mean logically, it's batshit. You want him out, but then you say you don't give a sh44 and want him to "man up"-- whatever that means to guys on the toilet...


OM: 'I know. I will.'

Me: 'You will what? How old are you man, 19? [b] Do what's right.'[/b]

OM: 'I will starting now. I promise.'

I walked away at the point. .. I drove SS to my house. I sent W a text message as soon as we got there.

Nooooooooo


...blah blah blah blah blah back and forth ANGER ANGER ANGER (STOMPING FEET

HERE BELOW are the gems among the rocks...

W: "I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"

translation...I want a way out of this lose lose conversation...but I'm too proud and angry to back down, and have no tools for handling those issues.

Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."

W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"

Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."

This sounds like a negotiation. Did she KNOW these terms?

W: "So what are you asking me to do?"


Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."

----------YIKES...SHE JUST ASKED YOU WHAT SHE COULD DO....AND YOU SAID NOTHING, AS YOU ARE "SHUTTING THE DOOR"...(sigh)


W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."

W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'

SHE'S DARING YOU TO KEEP TREATING HER RIGHT AND PROVE YOU'RE FOR REAL...BUT she's also wanting to cake eat...and abuse you some more.

Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"

W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"


WANTS REASSURANCE FROM YOU...HAS SHIFTED THE WHOLE CONVERSATION TO HER TERMS & WHAT SHE WANTS FROM YOU...this used to be what you wanted...right?

Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."

Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad. I'm sad that this is the end of our M."

OF COURSE YOU ARE ANGRY...YOUR PRIDE/EGO WAS HURT, AND SO, YOU ARE ENDING THE Marriage... YOU ACTED/TEXTED WITHOUT THINKING. YOU REACTED...bummer.

EVEN THOUGH SHE IS SAYING 'WHAT CAN I DO'? AND 'DON'T YOU SEE WHY I AM AFRAID?"

But in fairness Denver,

you DO have the right to draw your line in the sand.

We all have them and sometimes we don't know where they are until they've been crossed.

We have to look within and shelve the ego and pride and honestly assess whether we can forgive something or even just handle it. (As an example If my h were ever in an A with a sister of mine for instance, I'd drop the m. That's something I could not deal with -unless he had a brain tumor, ya know?)...

So you have to ask yourself, "Can I live with THIS behavior even if it is over? (Is it over??) Is this something I can forgive and forget?" And if the answer is "no", (I don't think this is anti DBing but it might be but here it goes...)

if the answer is no, then maybe we owe it to ourselves AND our spouses, to let them go.

If we know we cannot forgive something, then having a restored happy m, isn't going to ever happen. What's the point then?

Maybe if there are young kids and you don't mind a platonic sham marriage...and some can pull it off.

But otherwise, IF we're going to make them miserable holding it over their head forever or every time we fight throwing it into their faces, and we know this...And we'll always get that sick to the stomach feeling when they're "working late" or get a text...and we won't "work on it"

b/c it's simply something we know we lack in our genes to cope with, THEN YES, it's over...

W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"


She's negotiating/asking you for the terms of the R...

Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."

You better have meant that b/c if you didn't, then you just shut a door she had opened...She was thinking about offering you those terms or at least probing, and she would have had to swallow her pride to agree then and there...but YOU stopped it so she could not.

. I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."

IMO, just my gut, the translation here is -That's you telling her you want an apology and a promise and a new R, and then her not being able to comply...

W: "Okay. Bye."

Me: "Bye"

Obviously, today, You guys lacked good communication skills and that's putting it mildly. Couples need to be able to fight fair or walk away. These types of fights leave wounds that sometimes cannot heal. Was this typical of old behavior?

Too bad you continued to threaten and then she dared you to follow through and you insisted that you WILL folllow through and you explain you "have to" b/c you "have no choice" b/c she is making you do this...

and the thing is Denver, a part of me agrees...meaning, you have painted yourself into a corner with the insistent threat/promise/declaration that it was over now.

I know that I said that I would be filing for a D a couple of times. I regretted making that statement to W before I even posted my update. My other statements of being done were more around removing myself from the equation... refusing to agree to live in an open marriage.

Am I painted into a corner with the D thing? I don't know. I will probably lose credibility if I don't file. I'm not sure what happens here in Colorado if I just file and leave it sitting out there. I'm not sure if the court forces a disposition or not. I need to check. I thought that was a good idea if it will work here.

As for me being serious about removing myself from the equation goes, I am serious about that. I don't want to be a part of my W's life if she is with OM, or any OM for that matter. It is too painful for me, and I think that it allows my W to cake eat. I don't see how it helps me to be around her under these circumstances.

SO my question is two fold.

First, is it over? I mean we know you love her, but seriously it might be over for you if this is something that just crossed the line too much for you.

I honestly don't know at this point. I guess that I need time and space myself to figure that out.

If my h were with a 19 y/o,

Just want to clarify. OM is not 19. He is 34 or 35. That was just a comment that I made.

File, then forget about it, and act as if and I mean ACT AS IF in the zero backsliding ways.
No more fighting, no more R talk or even overt effort...just you pleasantly moving on and staying involved in SS life, big time

He's your way back to her you know...

I know that he is. He is how I got to where I was in February and March. Staying in his life.

So you are saying that I should file, let the process sit (if possible here), and completely remove myself from W's life? But stay in SS's life.

OR you somehow explain why you are not filing but you would have to do that in a way that doesn't make you look weak or indecisive or as if you were simply angry and trying to control her...

which you were/are...

But if you do nothing, then....idk...well, then what?

I don't know. What I do know is that I am removing myself from W's life. I don't know about filing for D... at this time. Explain that I'm not filing? I don't know how I do that and not lose credibility. Plus, I have a feeling that W and I are going to go through a fairly long period of time with no contact.

Can Denver say (about 39 times) he's "done" "moving on" and have her dare him to do it (about 53 times) and him insisting "This is it! She "crossed a line and it's over!" and then do nothing, without losing all his credibility?

Probably not.

Your goal is not saving your marriage "at all costs"...isn't it having a restored marriage with healthy boundaries...?

Yes. And I don't see any other way to get there than to go through this. Being around for W, helping her with things, taking her to do fun stuff... it simply wasn't getting me anywhere. She is taking advantage of it. She has the best of both worlds with what I was doing.

Oh, and NO MORE of these furious conversations!! So much anger that even the end comments were almost not worth it...were they?

I don't know. I think that we had to go through that yesterday. Or, at least she did. I don't think that I was 'furious' at all. I think that I stayed pretty calm and refrained from name calling the whole time. Did you see it differently?

I guess she was dishonest with you. But I'm not clear on what you were thinking she was doing all this time...being like you were?

But she wasn't...she wanted to date. She's not the type of woman (with that son), to be able to be alone for any real amount of time. She's the type of woman who needs a man around. A source of affection and fun to give her a break, in the ceaseless demands of son.

That's the part that I think that she was dishonest about. She told me 'I don't want to date anyone right now'. Yes, I hung my hat on that comment. My bad. But IMO, it was a lie to keep me from walking.

Is it b/c the "A" before, was a fait accompli when you found out way back when, whereas now, it's NOW and that's what you cannot abide by?

Correct? I get that.

Yes, it is because it was fait accompli that I was able to move beyond it before. The fact that it is happening NOW, after she and I have spent so much time together over the past 3 months, is why I cannot abide by it. I don't know what else to say. It is destroying me emotionally. I have to remove myself from it.

But healthy boundaries, and pride based punishments often have a fine line between them...So, you have a choice to make.
[/b]
1. Can you file and push the pedal to the floor, get it over with & finally so move on with your life?

2. Can you file and then ignore it?

3. Can you do nothing?

4. Can you go back to her, and say "let's start over, from this day forward"?

Your healthy boundary vs. pride based punishment comparison made me think. How do I know if what I am doing is one or the other?

I don't see how option 4 above is possible. I can't stay in the situation as W wants it.

I don't know about 1 or 2 ... 3 seems like you're saying status quo... again, unacceptable. How about option 5... simply remove myself from the equation. Let W have her time, space to do whatever she wants. But move on with my life? Including dating?? I think that this option 5 is what I need to do.

"I just don't think reality and time on her own, is bad for your cause. UNLESS YOU KEEP FIGHTING..."

It is my only course of action right now 25. That's the way that I see it. Am I going to continue to fight? I don't know yet. Yesterday was a serious blow to my will.

"Let's hope she doesn't file charges...tell me your name is on the deed???"

Nope. My name is not on the deed. But I don't think that anything that I did was technically illegal. I was let into the house. I didn't damage a thing. And I didn't touch OM. MAYBE it could be argued that I harassed him. Whatever though. It was worth it.

"Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."

This sounds like a negotiation. Did she KNOW these terms? "

Not in uncertain terms. But I think that she knew how I'd react. She told me that she was talking to OM, that she had had him over for dinner that one time. Did she ever say that she was sleeping with him again or that she was 'dating' him? NO. In fact, she said, 'I don't want to date anyone right now'. I think that she tried to be dishonest in a way that she could argue that she wasn't. JMO I guess.

"Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."

----------YIKES...SHE JUST ASKED YOU WHAT SHE COULD DO....AND YOU SAID NOTHING, AS YOU ARE "SHUTTING THE DOOR"...(sigh)"

How could I have handled this differently? I didn't want to force her to do anything that she didn't want to do. I was not trying to control her. I know that it has been perceived that way by posters here and W, but that was not what I was doing. I was simply trying to get information that I deserved so that I could make an informed decision on how I want to proceed.

So when she said this, if I had responded, I will continue with this as long as you don't see OM, it would have been asking her to do something that she apparently isn't ready to do.

She has to make that choice on her own. And the only way that I see that she will do that is if and when she puts her face in her hands and says, 'what have I done'.

"W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'

SHE'S DARING YOU TO KEEP TREATING HER RIGHT AND PROVE YOU'RE FOR REAL...BUT she's also wanting to cake eat...and abuse you some more."

Right. Thus, the dilemma. I'd love to be in her life and for her to give me the opportunity to continue to show her that I am for real. BUT, I'm not willing to let her to abuse me... at least not in this way.

I told her yesterday, something that I think that I neglected to include in my update... "even with everything that I did wrong in our marriage W, I deserve to be treated better than this".

And I believe that.

"OF COURSE YOU ARE ANGRY...YOUR PRIDE/EGO WAS HURT, AND SO, YOU ARE ENDING THE Marriage... YOU ACTED/TEXTED WITHOUT THINKING. YOU REACTED...bummer.

EVEN THOUGH SHE IS SAYING 'WHAT CAN I DO'? AND 'DON'T YOU SEE WHY I AM AFRAID?""

Was I angry? Sure. But I didn't want W to know that. Did act without thinking and react? Yes, I did. And in hindsight, that is the one thing that I do regret about yesterday.

"W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"

She's negotiating/asking you for the terms of the R...

Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."

You better have meant that b/c if you didn't, then you just shut a door she had opened...She was thinking about offering you those terms or at least probing, and she would have had to swallow her pride to agree then and there...but YOU stopped it so she could not."

You think 25? Maybe she was thinking about it. But did I really close the door to that completely? Is that how it comes across? I did tell her that if she did come to me and said no OM's that I would have something to think about. It seemed to me that I left the door open for her to come to me with that proposition.

Would I do it? I don't know. Like I said, I'd have to think about it now.

"I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."

IMO, just my gut, the translation here is -That's you telling her you want an apology and a promise and a new R, and then her not being able to comply..."

While your translation of what I was saying there is wrong, that is what I would like from her. I'm not sure that it would fix this, but it would be a start. But you're right, she can't comply with that right now. She needs to come to that on her own. I can't help her. But I can't be around her while she figures it out either.

Thanks 25 for your thoughtfulness, advice, and time... as always!! I appreciate it more than I can tell you.

Denver