Rebuilding a friendship...Thread #4

[Redo]

W and I already went through something similar for about a year and a half prior to her leaving. To her, that was when she was trying to save our marriage. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, and I would take her temperature every couple weeks as soon as I saw some positive signs, which just started the cycle all over again. Since she left back in January, she has maintained that she is done and doesn't see the point in trying anymore.

How can I overcome that????? I know I have time, but she even told me yesterday that the things I do for her which used to make her feel loved don't make her feel loved when I do them now. She will not let herself feel loved by me.

oh...I am sorry you have already been on this path before.

There's one thing i learnt from our relationship. I spent about 6 months, trying to make my wife happy, not rock the boat, be more loving to her, going to therapy myself. But the whole time i believe the problem was with US, not just ME. So i wish i encouraged my wife to go to some kind of marriage counseling with me. In your case you wife is already declaring that she is only there for the kids.

Before you become strangers to each other in your own home, you might have to seek more advice where you ignite that spark back in your relationship. I have been on the IC path. If your spouse is not co-operating, then going to IC will just increase the hurt more because you will start learning that wife is not doing anything for the relationship. I dunno, seek out her family or your family's help. Or start a new topic and ask some veterans here for advice.

[JustStunned]

but she even told me yesterday that the things I do for her which used to make her feel loved don't make her feel loved when I do them now.

IMO she is telling you it makes her feel pressured. Several of the last few posts seem to go in this direction.

Stop anything she perceives as pressure. She said she came back for the kids. Make it about the kids and only the kids. Keep the road paved and smooth, but stop looking down it for her approach. Either, it’ll sneak up on her and her heart will soften or it won’t.

It is her choice to let it.

[Redo]

JS: I like the advice. But i wonder. so if everything is done just for the kids, overtime there's nothing much left between husband and wife. They would have become strangers , right?

I am saying it out of my own experience. See somedays i used to feel this incredible love for my wife and would want to express it, but somehow we lost that closeness between us that even i did express it, to my wife it felt hollow. If the spouse does not see or care that the other spouse is making this effort, then distance will develop and all the effort will go waste because over time they will slowly seperate... I dunno, i could be talking crazy....

Man, who said rocket science was hard...those guys should experience this mess. This is harder than rocket science

[JustStunned]

MK I don't know either, but it seems to me these are the blocks NG has been given to work with for the time being.

It is something they can work on together. It is not an 80% solution, but it is better.

I hear "Don't let best get in the way of better" Better can be an incremental step to best

[~ kd ~]

GAL is becoming the person only a fool would leave.

Even if we think they aren't paying attention, they ARE watching us.

So in the end... (or beginning), there is a possibility that they realize they do NOT want to be that fool...

And that... changes the whole ball game...

[2stepboogie]

But i wonder. so if everything is done just for the kids, overtime there's nothing much left between husband and wife. They would have become strangers , right?

Sounds to me like they are practically strangers now. Only thing that changes is that you are making the kids the priority and not the M.

Man, who said rocket science was hard...those guys should experience this mess.

Rocket Science is Easy Compared to this that's for sure.

Navy:

Sorry to see things turning for you in a negative way. This is a looooooooong process and the success rate from what I can tell is very low. In the end though if you can continue to do what you have to do and take the higher road your kids will be better and you will be better.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi Navy, You asked me to look in so here I am...

I read your first thread and this one and a few posts in between. Hope I didn't miss anything big.

It sounds as if your C has a good point, you are suffering for the sins of other men in your w's past. Also, statistically most women report their lowest marital satisfaction about 2 years after the birth of their 2nd child...just sayin'

But essentially, isn't she saying "I will stay m to you for now, but I will never let go of the past or forgive, and I will hold the past 'sins' against you even if it isnt' you I'm angry at..."?? IS that it, in brief?

Just had a talk with W. I know I'm not supposed to be doing R talk, but that really doesn't seem to be working at this point.

I asked her how she is doing. She started by saying that she still feels like her life is on hold for others...and that there's been roadblocks to her getting back into school.

Her indecision and possible depression are the obstacles.You are not responsible. Don't pretend to be or she'll be enabled to wallow in her despair and indecisiveness.

I asked her if she thought I was causing any of the roadblocks. She said no. I asked if there was anything more I could be doing to help. She said no.

Then we talked about us. She reiterated that she's just back for the kids' sake. (I still don't truly understand how this could be possible).

If she thinks that's why, that's why...(for all intents and purposes) Perception is reality...for now.


Then told me that sometimes she feels like she's doing things that she doesn't want to because I ask her to and she doesn't want to hurt my feelings by saying no. I asked her why she feels that way...she said it was because of the past. I told her itsmnot going to hurt my feelings at all.

So she was pathologically conflict avoidant?? And still doesn't have to speak up for herself? If so, then you have to become a better mind reader...good luck with that.

Then I asked her what she thinks my goal is. She said I want to fix things. I told her that I want us to emotionally connect...where we can share our feelings with each other and not feel judged. I told her I don't think we've ever had that...not her fault or mine...but neither of us knew any better.

Then I jumped back to the previous topic. I told her while I do appreciate her not wanting to hurt my feelings when she wants to tell me no but she doesn't, that is not what I want, because it does not support my goal, it only causes more resentment in her. I told her that the few times she's actually asked me for something since she got back made me feel really good...it was easy to give her what she needed when she asked for it.

Not a bad talk I guess. Still [censored] to hear the "I'm only here for the kids" line 2 1/2 months after she came back though. Seems that she still has no interest in actively working on our marriage either.

Tomorrow's another day...

Do you feel as if your approach is working? If not, why not do something different? Have you read "No More Mr Nice Guy"? I haven't but a lot of guys have and they highly recommend it.

Also the Five Love Languages, which I found very helpful is a good one. Thing is, you can change the dynamics of the R to an extent without her, but you are going on almost a year of no ML and she seems depressed to me, does she get c for that?

Also why are you getting off the ADs? I ask b/c you began to and then the R talk and antsyness seemed to come up.

But then again, that's reasonable, given the circumstances.

I don't see anything for you to do except change your approach. You sound like an insightful kind man with a good brain...and a wife in some sort of crisis.

BUT please...listen carefully to my next comments...

As a former JAG officer with experience defending men accused of abuse, (sometimes falsely) her near allegation of sex abuse, is a huge red flag to me.

It ruins careers and lives...and she has issues...make sure you document the "incident" you discussed with the IC...and beware.

You have a lot more to worry about living together than she does. She is projecting her issues onto you, and transferring her victimhood onto the kids.

Oh, the actual phrase is "Do you want to be right or HAPPY", (not right or "married"...) and

that's an important distinction. Make sense?

[Navyguy]

25, thanks for giving me some of your time. I hope you know how appreciated you are by all of us on this board.

But essentially, isn't she saying "I will stay m to you for now, but I will never let go of the past or forgive, and I will hold the past 'sins' against you even if it isnt' you I'm angry at..."?? IS that it, in brief?

I think that is what she is basically saying, but in her mind there is no "if it isn't me she's angry at". She is totally convinced that I am the problem. She seems to vehemently refuse to put 2 and 2 together and see how her past affected her and my actions over the years.

Her indecision and possible depression are the obstacles.You are not responsible. Don't pretend to be or she'll be enabled to wallow in her despair and indecisiveness.

I agree. I think I have probably taken validating too far to where I have started to enable her. That is why I MUST avoid the R talk...anytime I try to defend myself, she pulls all the skeletons (i.e. times where I did screw up as a husband/father and I can't defend my actions) out of the closet which reopens all the old wounds. IC told me the other day "there is no way I can win with this woman"...IC actually said she is "bullying" me.

So she was pathologically conflict avoidant?? And still doesn't have to speak up for herself? If so, then you have to become a better mind reader...good luck with that.

Yes, and I think her conflict avoidance trait comes from her childhood. Her dad was a tyrant and she learned to keep him happy at all costs, or there would be consequences. I have brought up how she doesn't ask me for what she wants/needs many times in the past and her responses are "that is not who I am" and "I don't think I should have to do that". And when I do bring that up, she sees it as me blaming her. Her friends have even told her she needs to speak up more....it seems that she just can't.

Funny you mention the mind reading. I took the CPI 260 personality test a few months ago. My empathy (reading other people's emotions/feelings) score was off the chart (like 99+ percentile). For some reason I can't seem to make that work with W though.

Do you feel as if your approach is working? If not, why not do something different?

I thought it was working pretty well until the R talk the other day. It feels like no matter what I do we're not going to get to where I want to go unless W starts dealing with her past.

Have you read "No More Mr Nice Guy"? I haven't but a lot of guys have and they highly recommend it.

I have not, but I will check it out.

Also the Five Love Languages, which I found very helpful is a good one. Thing is, you can change the dynamics of the R to an extent without her, but you are going on almost a year of no ML and she seems depressed to me, does she get c for that?

I have read 5LL. W's is acts of service, and I have been focusing on that. W went to counseling 3 sessions before the separation. No idea what they talked about but I'm almost certain they didn't get into her past. No professional C at all since then and I'm pretty sure her two main confidants (both of which she has known for less than 4 years) have no idea what she's been through in the past.

Also why are you getting off the ADs? I ask b/c you began to and then the R talk and antsyness seemed to come up.

I already did that math in my head too. Already back on the ADs as of yesterday. I haven't had any noticable side effects from them and it appears they did prevent me from reacting as strongly to her.

I don't see anything for you to do except change your approach. You sound like an insightful kind man with a good brain...and a wife in some sort of crisis.

Thanks for the compliments, it really means a lot to hear that. As far as my approach goes, I'm going to try to do the "loving pullback", meaning I will be a nice as I can to her, but I will initiate as little as possible with her. That is basically what she is asking for anyways. Who knows...maybe's she's subconciously asking me for what she needs to save our M.

BUT please...listen carefully to my next comments...

As a former JAG officer with experience defending men accused of abuse, (sometimes falsely) her near allegation of sex abuse, is a huge red flag to me.

Couldn't agree more...and as an Naval Officer I've had to deal with similar issues for some of my troops.

make sure you document the "incident" you discussed with the IC...and beware.

I figure that between posting here, talking to my IC, and keeping a journal on my computer at work, I'm in good shape. Is that a safe assumption?

and transferring her victimhood onto the kids.

That was my biggest concern during the separation and probably still would be if we end up splitting up. She is a great mom, but I think that is because we are great parents together..."united we stand, divided we fall". She thinks we can just teach them by simply telling them the right things. I told her that I totally disagree with that...they will learn much more from our actions.

Oh, the actual phrase is "Do you want to be right or HAPPY", (not right or "married"...) and that's an important distinction. Make sense?

Are you sure it's not "be married or be happy"?

It is a very important distinction...makes perfect sense.

[~ kd ~]

Funny you mention the mind reading. I took the CPI 260 personality test a few months ago. My empathy (reading other people's emotions/feelings) score was off the chart (like 99+ percentile). For some reason I can't seem to make that work with W though.

Empathy comes with a lot of emotional push/pull, in order to draw things out.

Under normal circumstances, there is no resistance. But in some instances, the person being read pulls back and shuts down when fear and/or anger sets in.

That is where your W likely is. She's shutting it down, because she is aware of your ability to empathize. She is loathe for you to be "right" about her feelings and thoughts, so she is doing her own "180s", causing confusion in you.

Alternately, your own emotional super-awareness is likely interfering with your ability to empathize with her, specifically.

Combine those two things and the results are...? You will ALWAYS be wrong when it comes to her.

[Harrier]

NG -a few thoughts on top of what MC has said.

1. If the ADs aren't working for you, try a different one. I'd really suggest you see a Psychiatrist for this most GPs just don't have the knowledge base (I know this is a general assumption)

Studies show that the two main reasons people go off ADs are because of the side effects or they start to feel better so they think the don't need them anymore.

2. On thing that struck me in your thread is your need to ask W to come along to do things. I think you are kinda setting yourself up. There are ways to ask without asking, but more so let her decide on her own. In my situation I almost never ask my W to come along. I might say I'm taking the kids to the park" if she wants to go she can speak up. Or I will speak in generalities and let her fill in the gap. Like, "I'd kinda like to get outside this weekend."

Sometimes I will just go outside and play with my boys in the yard,that usually draws her out.

Although my W is different in that 99% of the time she will go. We end up doing a lot of things as a family.

I will add that I don't use this approach to try to trick my W into going along. I do it because I want to go to the park with my boys - nothing more.