Harrier

[25yearsmlc]

Yikes. A beatdown by 25.

Really? A "beat down"? I'm not a nun hitting you with a ruler. I have given tough love but this is observational, and you react... oddly to it.

Thanks, but first let me re-cap the positive this weekend.

1. No R talk. (Sat, Sun, Mon)
2. No crying in front of W
3. No snooping
4. No getting mad in front of W
5. Tried to keep all interactions fun and positive.

My wife would give MWD fits...I'm sure.



Okay, let me recap. We did have an R talk on Friday night. It was logistics talk of the move out. I kinda get where my W is coming from. I don't think she wants to separate, per say, but she wants to live apart. If I'm being stupid about this, you can say I told you so later.

So during the talk,[b] I kinda effed up.[/b] But she tells me a bunch of things - all positive. She loves me, she thinks there is no one in this world like me for her, she doesn't want divorce, she likes to spend time with me, etc. But, and the big but, she has a lot of anger at me for the past year and she said it's hard to process that when I'm around. I kinda get that. that's why she can't do it living together. So we end that and agree to have a good weekend.


I think it's the pestering and constant R talk, isn't that why she has to get space from you?

We had a good time on Saturday and she sends me a text out of the blue.
"G'night. You are a good dude and I am lucky to have you. No matter what I love you. See you when you come up."

That's nice.

The rest of the weekend went pretty smooth. and I will get into the substance of what 25 talked about, but she didn't see me get mad once, nor did I snoop once and she gave me lots of opportunity.

Okay....now on to your questions.

[/b]
Still all about her....

How's that working for you?

Re-read the posts people have given you. Oh, and retain the information in them. This is an absurd comment for you to make. It means you manipulated and it didn't work and you are complaining...good grief. The changes she wants are healthy ones! And you don't get that...you really don't...you think she should IMMEDIATELY change into who YOU want her to be....Sheesh!

I agree 100%. I don't think she should immediately change. There have been substantial changes of the last 7 months by myself. I've lived them. I'm not going to rattle them off again. Clearly, I know everything hasn't been changed. I'm not doing the changes to "manipulate" her.But get what you are saying. The changes are for me. It's not healthy fo r me to snoop, it's not healthy to expect affection. Okay, slap noted.

really? "slap noted"? Um, you're welcome.. hey, how do you take constructive criticism from others? You certainly resist it from her and from me...so the "pattern" (I think you are the one who said 2 events =a pattern) means... what?

So she's responsible for how you feel and act? What a way to live...

This is where I part ways with the DB process a lot.


Well you are here on the DB site. So why? And how's your 'modified approach' working for you?

People don't live in vacuums, they just don't.

People who are inwardly content, don't need the positive affirmations from others to remain inwardly content. "they just don't."

If I found a $100 bill on the sidewalk would I be happier than before I found it. Heck yes. Now is the $100 bill suddenly responsible for my happiness? No. We derive happiness, anger, sadness, annoyance from a host of outside forces.

No,that is not true. We derive happiness from our perceptions of our life and the people in it, and the meaning we give them. We create our happiness. That's why Aristotle said "happiness is a virtue" b/c he knew it took work.
Some of the poorest people I've ever met are the happiest. The single happiest woman I have ever known lost a child and has a brittle diabetic son, age 6. Her brother died on the way to her 16th B-Day party. I feel as if meeting her was a Godsend b/c of what I've learned from her. According to you, she should never be happy again. How can she? 2 deaths of loved ones before their time including a CHILD?? And the diabetic son is constantly swinging into comas...



We are human after all. I understand about giving some person too much power, but I can't deny its there.

You gave it to her. Take it back.

I was annoyed in the moment. I didn't let it color my whole day or my interactions with her or the kids.

Good.

Break the cycle - My W and I are caught in a cycle of reactions to eachother. I do something, she reacts, I react to her reaction, etc. I'm trying to stop my reactions and things that activate her.

Take yourself out of the equation. A relationship between 2 people changes, by definition, when one of the 2 changes. (Oh wait, I already told you this.)



My other changes have been going on for months. These ones I have been failing at, I admit.

^^Meaning?? The "changes have been going on for months" or you are "failing"?

I disagree that my "changes" are only tactics to get her back. Why? I don't want to have these feelings anymore and regardless of whether we ultimately stay together, these are changes that HAVE to be made.

Yes they are, but then stop complaining when she doesn't give you the reaction you want.


She has commented on some of the changes though.
I do agree that I have to focus on the fact they are changes for ME.

Thanks for the weekend challenge on the snooping and R talk. I kept repeating something that you wrote to myself during the good times this weekend. "This is what forgiveness can look like." I don't know if really applies here.

You "don't know if this really applies here"...really? Why not?

Why do you think I told you that long story of what forgiveness may look like?

[Harrier]

Okay, I need to address something straight up.
When I use words like "beatdown," "slap" etc. It isn't mean as a challenge to what you are telling me. It doesn't mean that I disregard that advice or can't take it. It's meant mostly as a joke.

Remember when I asked you what "trying" meant to you? You didn't say.

Trying - to make an effort. To realize what is at stake and make an effort to change my behavior.

Just so you know, just because I don't write them out, doesn't mean I don't answer the questions.

As for the R talk on Friday. It simply couldn't be avoided and I will leave it at that.

I think it's the pestering and constant R talk, isn't that why she has to get space from you?

If by pestering you mean the snooping, I said as much. The r talk may also be, but she has never said it.

I have a different take on the whole happiness thing. I mean if your H died, you'd be as happy as you are now? Even that woman you told me about, she is 100% happy all the time? What I meant is that external stimuli are in our lives (you can't deny that). We have to figure out how we react to that stimuli and it CAN'T always be happy. I wouldn't want it to be that way frankly. We'd never have great songs written, great poetry, etc. This doesn't make me a miserable person. I mean if I never experienced the sadness, then happiness would be meaningless.

I also think there is a neurological chemical component...in fact there has to be. I can't "change" my brain chemistry just by my reactions to things. I mean if that's the case, then no one would need Anti-Ds, they could just work really hard to change their perceptions.

I'm not using that as a crutch to not try, but to in fact see how I can succeed.

Changes - I have made other changes that have certainly stuck. I mentioned them in other posts. But two changes - the snooping and the reacting to her - still need a lot of work.


As for the forgiveness thing - i said I don't know if it applies here because I didn't know if that's what you meant by it or you had something else in mind. It felt like what you meant.

BTW do you naturally gravitate to other lawyers?

On a side note, I did get 2 root canals on Saturday and applied for a new job at a hospital on Sunday.

[Navyguy]

Harrier/25yearsmlc...

I feel like I have the exact same problem with "reacting" to W. Since she moved back, I have been pretty good about it up until yesterday. I had a small (silent) reaction to her not wanting to go to the splash park with kids and I and it ended up with her moving all her stuff out of our bedroom and into the basement, which sucked me into a long R talk in which she told me she's still "done" and that she is only here for the kids. Now I feel like I'm back at square one.

Here's the point: Am I better off due to my reaction to W? Not at all...I'm in a much worse place. Why it happened doesn't matter one bit to her and me trying to justify my actions just made things worse. It all goes back to being right or being married.

If you guys get the chance to hop over to my thread in newcomers I could really use some help...I haven't had a 2x4 in a long time and I probably deserve one after this weekend.

[25yearsmlc]

Okay, I need to address something straight up.
When I use words like "beatdown," "slap" etc. It isn't mean as a challenge to what you are telling me. It doesn't mean that I disregard that advice or can't take it. It's meant mostly as a joke.

I wanted you to note the way it sounds. As if a young person is being scolded.
And it MIGHT be a pattern of sorts, for you.

Remember when I asked you what "trying" meant to you? You didn't say.

Trying - [b]to make an effort.[/b] To realize what is at stake and make an effort to change my behavior.

I know the dictionary's definition. But from where I sit, I see a man of some education backsliding so often, I have to wonder what he really means, as a practical matter. And the timeline of expectations seems to be about a weekend's worth of "change" from you, leads you to expect some sort of breakthrough from her. If not consciously, at least emotionally, b/c you notice most everything she does, and mostly, negatively.

As for the R talk on Friday. It simply couldn't be avoided and I will leave it at that.

I think it's the pestering and constant R talk, isn't that why she has to get space from you?

If by pestering you mean the snooping, I said as much. The r talk may also be, but she has never said it.


II think it's both, and the way you look when you are disappointed; something tells me we won't nominate you for an Oscar. I think you are transparent. That will appear to be manipulation even if you say nothing...the stares or the tears say it all. You know she's not into seeing that. And guilt, OFTEN converts into anger at the source of the guilt, which is why I tell people do not try to guilt your WAS (I learned this the hard way) b/c they will NOT come back for that. If they do, they'll resent it and leave again. I have seen ZERO marriages work out b/c an LBSer guilted them into returning. It does not work.

I have a different take on the whole happiness thing. I mean if your H died, you'd be as happy as you are now? Even that woman you told me about, she is 100% happy all the time? What I meant is that external stimuli are in our lives (you can't deny that).

Your way of speaking in absolutes is irksome b/c it almost begs for a round of argument. My point is simple. Stop all the resistance for a minute. An esoteric discussion shouldn't be necessary and it's not. Here's the deal.

By your own admission, You reveak an unhappy demeanor to your wife, and it's not attractive. Your neediness is a turn off. You are not fun to be around for her. You've been depressed and miserable and irritable with a temper for a long time.

If you want to keep explaining that away with theories about chemicals and brain work, which somehow means you can't do anyting about it b/c after all, "external stimuli" and blah blah blah prevents you from changing....(Yawn...I'm getting bored...)

You decide Harrier. If those abstract talks help you stay stuck then I guess you'll choose them over change that begins and ends, with you. If you need chemical help, you know how to get it. No one here is judging that.



We have to figure out how we react to that stimuli and it CAN'T always be happy. I wouldn't want it to be that way frankly. We'd never have great songs written, great poetry, etc. This doesn't make me a miserable person. I mean if I never experienced the sadness, then happiness would be meaningless.

I also think there is a neurological chemical component...in fact there has to be. I can't "change" my brain chemistry just by my reactions to things.

Then get on the anti-depressants. Stop defending behavior that hurts your R's b/c it hinders your changes. Period. Get the meds!


I mean if that's the case, then no one would need Anti-Ds, they could just work really hard to change their perceptions.

I'm not using that as a crutch to not try, but to in fact see how I can succeed.


and what have you learned? I just see repeats of these discussions...round & round we go.


Changes - I have made other changes that have certainly stuck. I mentioned them in other posts. But two changes - the snooping and the reacting to her - still need a lot of work.

Well aren't those the changes that are most important? What are the other changes that you wanted to do? Some 180s? Well let's do them.

As for the forgiveness thing - i said I don't know if it applies here because I didn't know if that's what you meant by it or you had something else in mind. It felt like what you meant.

The "forgiveness thing" I wrote about, was for you to see the 2 things I saw that 4 day vacation. I learned how to let go of all the negatives I had for my h then, for those four days. For that short time, I focussed only on the positives. And after just 2 or 3 days, I felt so differently for him, and acted differently and so did he. We got a glimpse of forgiveness and a future.

You need to lose your scorecard, your list of grievances and the way you look at things so that you are generally some type of victim in the R.

(That also means no more "external stimuli prevents my happiness and I am not responsible for how I feel or act" discussions....)

You also need to look at her without ANY negatives (even if just for a weekend) with zero expectations and only reacting to positives, so that she can see what you're like when you have no baggage.

Then we pray that someday, she does the same. But you have to start.


BTW do you naturally gravitate to other lawyers?

God no.

On a side note, I did get 2 root canals on Saturday and applied for a new job at a hospital on Sunday.

ouch, and good luck

[Harrier]

Okay I figured out why I'm peeved. Because when she brought up the whole separation thing, I asked her 'How will things change between us? Will there still be affection, should we sleep in the same bed, will you still try to spend time with me?" Her answer "Nothing will change." Well things have changed and it kinda hits me a little.

I get what you are saying totally. H3ll, I figured this out before you took an interest in my case. I knew I need to change my mindset on my W. This was pre-separation. Thinking negatively is quite frankly the lazy way. i know this. I know, I know - NOW DO IT.

But I do think you have an inaccurate view of me. A sullen, angry man who pouts around the house when he doesn't get a kiss. Wrong. 90% of the time I'm fairly happy. I take a lot of pleasure in my kids; I still make my wife laugh a lot.

But I am not the guy I once was. I was much happier, easy going and my W liked that about me. I don't feel like me at times.

You are right I cannot fake it. I can't. That's a limitation of myself and I know that. So I have to find a way around that.

I do want to address something though. Last year my W's job was a huge issue for me. It was her first full-time job post PhD. i was less than supportive and it was a huge issue between us - as big as the snooping and reactions issue. I worked hard to change my attitude about it. Over a couple of weeks, I've was able to change my approach to it and how I reacted to it. That was 7 months ago, that was a change I made and a change that lasted. it's not an issue between us now.

Did you ever go through an EA with your H? I am struggling with it and it drives much of these issues. I mean if the OM suddenly died, I'm pretty sure the snooping would stop. I am talking to our MC about it Thursday.


BTW,I never said "external stimuli prevents my happiness and I am not responsible for how I feel or act" discussions." In fact i said the opposite.

I bring it up not to excuse my actions, but to understand them.

I look at it like this. Before law school, I was a reporter. Now, many reporters will tell you. I have no bias or I'm completely objective. It's BS. I always said, I am a reporter and I do have biases. If I pretend I don't I won't recognize when they sneak their way into my writing. If I acknowledge, I can confront them in my reporting. Now, I'm as liberal as it gets. Because I know of this bias it allowed me to watch for it. To the point where during elections - both parties would compliment me on my even handedness during the race.

Same goes for happiness. If I pretend there are no external stiumli, I will fail. If I acknowledge them, it can be helpful to my overall goal. That's my point for bringing them out.

Overall thanks though.

Would it surprise you to know I don't do courtroom work? It's funny in my work life I basically follow the DB principles.
So it's not like it's impossible for me.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

So she's responsible for how you feel and act? What a way to live...

This is where I part ways with the DB process a lot...I understand about giving some person too much power, but I can't deny its there.

I was annoyed in the moment. I didn't let it color my whole day or my interactions with her or the kids.

I don't see you parting ways with DB on this. At least you realize you can give someone too much power and control. Ultimatley you do or should control your emotions.

My wife cannot make me happy. She can influence my choice to be happy; impact it; but only if I let her.

This weekend you did great. Previous times? Not so well. So what was different this weekend?

[Jack_Three_Beans]

: )

But I do think you have an inaccurate view of me. A sullen, angry man who pouts around the house when he doesn't get a kiss. Wrong. 90% of the time I'm fairly happy. I take a lot of pleasure in my kids; I still make my wife laugh a lot.

I'm pretty sure 25 wouldn't be wasting her time if she had that impression.

I know I wouldn't.

[MynameisMZ]

Harrier,

What helped me is that I got a little book (3 X 5 lined spiral) and in it I keep MY rules for life. Since they re my rules I can change them or amend them whenever. What they are are guiding principles that help my life work. Try it.

You know in your heart of hearts what it is you need to change,so start small with a behavioral goal and a formula to correct a behavior should you eff up.

Of you tend to drink too much, make a rule that you only have 2 glasses of whatever, if you ave a sharp tongue, make a deal that you will leave and go for a walk and think it over or sleep on anything big.

I have successes and failures all the time. Thanks God H is now on board too and is working on his behavior's as well. We still get into the reactive loop or quagmire you describe, but it's less and less and now we know it when it happens and we agree to table it until we can be calm and dissect it.

[Harrier]

Darn it I hate being right.

Anywho, I'm taking what 25Mlc said to me yesterday to heart.

But on top of that, I think I'm ready to start forgiving my W for the EA. I think I was holding onto the betrayal and anger so long that it was coloring every interaction.

It was/is a source for a lot of the anger about the lack of affection on my time table and the reason for a lot of the snooping.

I'm also taking a realistic view of our marriage. I mean we've lived together for 16 years. I don't think we ever made a big show of saying good night - with a hug and a kiss, etc. Now I'm getting antsy because that doesn't happen?

last night was good. I had a real estate closing in another town. I told my W about it on Saturday and she said "Why don't the boys and I meet you for dinner before your closing?" so we did.

It was nice we sat outside and enjoyed the weather. My W says, "This is really nice, I wish you didn't have to go to your closing and could just hang out here for a while."

She then tells me that she brought a file to give to another Physiologist she does part-time work for. He works in the area and would be stopping by to pick up the file.

She says "Can you hang around for a while, I want to say hi to David."

What is strange about this is that My W has always had a strict separate work from home policy, especially during the last 16 months. She rarely, rarely has me meet one of her work friends let alone has me wait to say hi.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say this was her 180. LOL.

Everything was nice an normal after that.

This this morning, I'm going to take the kids to day care and she stops me at my car and gives me a hug and a kiss. I was so surprise that the kiss was kinda off the mark.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

But on top of that, I think I'm ready to start forgiving my W for the EA. I think I was holding onto the betrayal and anger so long that it was coloring every interaction.

It does. Just as your good emotions color your interactions as well.

I'm also taking a realistic view of our marriage. I mean we've lived together for 16 years. I don't think we ever made a big show of saying good night - with a hug and a kiss, etc. Now I'm getting antsy because that doesn't happen?

Just smiling here, cause...Thank God.

This is really big.

To get upset about her not doing stuff she never really did before and thinking she isn't doing it to spite you... I am glad that you are looking at that with open eyes.

With that hopefully you won't be looking for 'slights' on her part.

"Why didn't she bring ME a Pepsi? She brought one in for hereself?"

Well...she never really used to, she isn't built that way.

This this morning, I'm going to take the kids to day care and she stops me at my car and gives me a hug and a kiss. I was so surprise that the kiss was kinda off the mark.

The other morning...she was kind of squirming away when you tried to kiss her right?

So...what was different?

Betting it was your attitude, something in your demeanor.