Harrier, I'd like to give my two cents too, as my situation has evolved to the Piecing stage. One of the more helpful DB tools I used when my W and I were in our roommate phase, was GAL. My only other option was probably D, but I wasn't ready to take that step.
I went out and took ballroom dancing lessons on my own, when my W went on-strike and refused to attend any further classes with me. I found venues to practice my dancing and became connected in the ballroom community. I was attracted to and women were attracted to me, which reminded me that I could be attractive. I didn't pursue anything, of course, but had a social network to turn to if we went our separate ways. It kept my mind focused on something constructive, and allowed me to grow in ways I needed to. In time, my W showed interest in wanting to join me. I let her, even though it was awkward, and I was ambivalent about the R.
It is an emotional time for you, and there's no way to make it easier, but you can make it more difficult. You're looking for reassurance from a W who can't provide it at this time. You will need to find the courage to face and accept things as they are. You will need to find a way to slow down and live more in the present. You're spending too much time and giving too much weight to thinking. Do you have a spiritual or religious practice? I'm a fan and promoter of meditation. Running can be your meditation.
I'm glad that you're getting advice on DB technique, because making small changes from the same patterns can take you down a more constructive path. For me it was joining a meditation group when my W and I separated in 04'. I still meditate to this day. The other one was taking ballroom dance lessons (09') and going out on my own to dance, and networking in the local dance community. It allowed me to grow in different ways and created a buffer from my problems.
CL
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
Jack, there was some research recently about tears and the effect they have on our ability to care and nurture. It was on NPR within the last 6 months.
The best thing I ever heard about sex? "Foreplay begis at breakfast."
MZ
M 55 H 58 M 24 T 29 S 22,21, 19 Bomb 4/10 It (A) really isn't about you 11/2013 We all have work to do
The truth will set you free, but it will almost kill you first.
MZ- found the article. It was interesting, but it seemed they did the study with only women's tears and how the smell of them lowered testosterone. There was an interesting side note about tears effect on oxytocin levels.
I am all over the map today. I noticed the Wife is on some sort of pull back mission and it's p1ssing me off. I know it shouldn't be and I know I shouldn't read into it. But really she has affection for others, just not me. Based on based experience, she knows what she is doing.
Here is where I get annoyed. My W tells me what she needs - no drama, no r talk, a fun happy H, no fights, no getting mad, space etc. So she gets ALL that...does it change her behavior. NOT ONE BIT. In fact she seems to pull back on the physical affection even more. WTF. Thanks a lot.
Which in turn feeds my anxiety, causing me to have wild thoughts and I don't want to put in the effort myself.
I'm trying to break the cycle, but it's hard by myself.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
MZ- found the article. It was interesting, but it seemed they did the study with only women's tears and how the smell of them lowered testosterone. There was an interesting side note about tears effect on oxytocin levels.
I am all over the map today. I noticed the Wife is on some sort of pull back mission and it's p1ssing me off. I know it shouldn't be and I know I shouldn't read into it. But really she has affection for others, just not me. Based on based experience, she knows what she is doing. Still all about her....
Here is where I get annoyed. How's that working for you?
My W tells me what she needs - no drama, no r talk, a fun happy H, no fights, no getting mad, space etc. So she gets ALL that...does it change her behavior. NOT ONE BIT. In fact she seems to pull back on the physical affection even more. WTF. Thanks a lot. Re-read the posts people have given you. Oh, and retain the information in them. This is an absurd comment for you to make. It means you manipulated and it didn't work and you are complaining...good grief. The changes she wants are healthy ones! And you don't get that...you really don't...you think she should IMMEDIATELY change into who YOU want her to be....Sheesh!
Which in turn feeds my anxiety, causing me to have wild thoughts and I don't want to put in the effort myself.
So she's responsible for how you feel and act? What a way to live...
I'm trying to break the cycle, but it's hard by myself.
What does "trying to break the cycle" mean to you? How long do you think a change in you, should be considered "real and lasting" by her? What's your idea of a fair timeline, given how long you have been the way you are?
AND FYI, DBing is BASED on the idea that ONE person can work on a marriage and b/c it's a R between 2 people, when ONE changes, the dynamic has to change, by definition.
So my guess is she does not believe your changes b/c they are either not actually evident, or you have not done them consistently (true) or for long enough for her to believe in them (also true). She thinks that your changes, IF SHE SEES THEM AT ALL, are tactics to get her back (also true, based on this post).
So realize that the equation for this is simple. Real Changes in You + Enough TIME = her belief that they are real.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
the posts you already have, answer all your concerns.
Read them over again and again until you really really "Get" it.
Seriously, you have a chance but you keep blowing it.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I need to catch up on your sitch, but sometimes doing that is like finding a needle in a haystack. Is there a way for you to give a little "thumbnail sketch" of your sitch? Thanks in advance.
I want to give you my "thumbnail" sitch as an example on why you should heed MLC25's advice about staying the course and looking to be conscious about your behavior.
My H was having an EA (I just found out recently) about 18 months before it turned into a PA. That takes us back to 2008. I was really wrapped up in work. I was starting some new projects and was distracted and busy. I knew my H and I were disconnected, but we had periods of that before. I never imagined an A. So a year goes by and into early summer of 2009 and I start to get a little annoyed with our disconnect, but I was still so busy. Looking back, I was DB and had the gift of denial, so I gave him lots of space. In retrospect that A was going to happen no matter what I did. I really believe that now..... and that's for my thread.
My point is that I read a lot of peeps on here having to really WORK DBing for months, even years. BTW- Some I agree with and can see and some I can't.
Anyway.....In early 2009 I expressed discontent to H and wanting to be closer. He said it wasn't going to happen. I basically shrugged, thinking, "OK, he's working through something and I need to back off." Again, NEVER imagining that an A was in the works. So in a way, I was doing DB without really knowing it. It wasn't until the end of that A and H wanting out (not knowing how to get out....eye-roll) that I started to wake up. I started investigating. In retrospect he was starting to drop hints, like texting her in front of me, saying that a group of them went out for drinks after work. It's so freakish when you can look back and see the dynamics 20/20 or 100% hind-site. Once it started unveiling itself, I had to do some hardcore DB and it was hard! H was in and out of it with OW, playing both sides against the middle. Or MC was even amazed at my focus (she later told us) because those early days are rough.
I was just thinking today that while my H was having his A, there was a co-worker who was getting my attn and mine his. However, I was cognizant enough to think, "Hmmmm, why is this attraction happening? What is going on with me and H that this is cropping up?" I put a big bag of ice on that sitch with the co-worker. I now know that that was a big red flag that our R was in trouble.
I know you are hurt and frustrated. You really have to focus and really make the changes. It's like that movie Ground Hog Day with Bill Murray. He wants things to change in his life and he tries to try at first and fails, then he tries....it isn't until he really has the change in his heart that things do change. It's a good movie to illustrate what a lot of peeps say on here.
I've said enough on your thread.....
Happy MD!
MZ
M 55 H 58 M 24 T 29 S 22,21, 19 Bomb 4/10 It (A) really isn't about you 11/2013 We all have work to do
The truth will set you free, but it will almost kill you first.
Thanks, but first let me re-cap the positive this weekend.
1. No R talk. (Sat, Sun, Mon) 2. No crying in front of W 3. No snooping 4. No getting mad in front of W 5. Tried to keep all interactions fun and positive.
My wife would give MWD fits...I'm sure. Okay, let me recap. We did have an R talk on Friday night. It was logistics talk of the move out. I kinda get where my W is coming from. I don't think she wants to separate, per say, but she wants to live apart. If I'm being stupid about this, you can say I told you so later.
So during the talk, I kinda effed up. But she tells me a bunch of things - all positive. She loves me, she thinks there is no one in this world like me for her, she doesn't want divorce, she likes to spend time with me, etc. But, and the big but, she has a lot of anger at me for the past year and she said it's hard to process that when I'm around. I kinda get that. that's why she can't do it living together. So we end that and agree to have a good weekend.
We had a good time on Saturday and she sends me a text out of the blue. "G'night. You are a good dude and I am lucky to have you. No matter what I love you. See you when you come up."
The rest of the weekend went pretty smooth. and I will get into the substance of what 25 talked about, but she didn't see me get mad once, nor did I snoop once and she gave me lots of opportunity.
Okay....now on to your questions.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
[/b] Still all about her.... How's that working for you?
Re-read the posts people have given you. Oh, and retain the information in them. This is an absurd comment for you to make. It means you manipulated and it didn't work and you are complaining...good grief. The changes she wants are healthy ones! And you don't get that...you really don't...you think she should IMMEDIATELY change into who YOU want her to be....Sheesh!
I agree 100%. I don't think she should immediately change. There have been substantial changes of the last 7 months by myself. I've lived them. I'm not going to rattle them off again. Clearly, I know everything hasn't been changed. I'm not doing the changes to "manipulate" her. But get what you are saying. The changes are for me. It's not healthy for me to snoop, it's not healthy to expect affection. Okay, slap noted.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
So she's responsible for how you feel and act? What a way to live...
This is where I part ways with the DB process a lot. People don't live in vacuums, they just don't. If I found a $100 bill on the sidewalk would I be happier than before I found it. Heck yes. Now is the $100 bill suddenly responsible for my happiness? No. We derive happiness, anger, sadness, annoyance from a host of outside forces. We are human after all. I understand about giving some person too much power, but I can't deny its there.
I was annoyed in the moment. I didn't let it color my whole day or my interactions with her or the kids.
Break the cycle - My W and I are caught in a cycle of reactions to eachother. I do something, she reacts, I react to her reaction, etc. I'm trying to stop my reactions and things that activate her. 1. the snooping- she hates it, it causes a reaction in her. 2. Me getting mad about her lack of affection.
This weekend was a start to no. 1. No. 2 has been undergoing a change for about 3 weeks now - the first step is to highlight the positive instead of focusing on the negative. However, if I do get upset Don't Let her see. Because she reacts to that.
My other changes have been going on for months. These ones I have been failing at, I admit. I don't know what her timeline is for "real" change But I know a part of it is getting over my anger with her about the EA.
I disagree that my "changes" are only tactics to get her back. Why? I don't want to have these feelings anymore and regardless of whether we ultimately stay together, these are changes that HAVE to be made. She has commented on some of the changes though. I do agree that I have to focus on the fact they are changes for ME.
Thanks for the weekend challenge on the snooping and R talk. I kept repeating something that you wrote to myself during the good times this weekend. "This is what forgiveness can look like." I don't know if really applies here.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
MZ - no problem with talking a lot on the thread. It ain't mine.
anywho - thumbnail sketch. Feb. 2010 - I start feeling my W is pulling way. I start lots of fights with her and accuse her of "something's going on." At the end of the month, I tell her I think I'm depressed and also tell her about the pulling away. She starts to correct her action, but I'm still suspicious.
I get on Anti-Ds and take them til May. The side effects are too much. Much of the summer is up and down. a few good days, then fights. My w trying to accomodate my affection demands, things are going crazy at work for her, etc. During this time I also threaten divorce numerous times or made hurtful comments. At times I also threaten suicide at times.
I also start to focus on her working relationship with a mentor. I warn her repeatedly. She tells me nothings going on and at the time, it wasn't, but I was worried.
By August, I'm back on some Anti Ds with no side effects. She starts working 1 day a week at the Mentor's office. I have huge problems with it. Anxiety attacks every Monday that she works for him. I snoop and start to see things changes. I don't want to be an a-hole husband who doesn't trust his wife and when she volunteers to quit, I say no.
By October, she has developed "a strong connection" to this mentor. What I feared came true. She talks to the mentor about her feelings - to set up work boundaries. Turns out the feelings are mutual. I come unglued at this point, lots of fights, stress, hurting.
In early Nov. I see the worst of the EA by snooping. The emails have a sexual inference. Basically she was telling him she was thinking of him and different scenarios in her "alone time" if you get my drift. Now mind you my wife is very prudish when it comes to talking about this -- even to me in good times. I was shocked. I confront her.
a week later, I found out she lied to me about going to his office. After I confront her, she tells me she wants a D. A week later is still firm in her decision. I DB now (my wife actually set me up on this).
By late Nov. my W takes the D off the table, but she is still talking/working for OM. In early december. W "catches" me driving by the OM's office. I was seeing if she was there. She is pissed. We drive home, I think the final bomb is coming. But she says she will stop contact with OM and start MC, calls the guy in front of me. She wants to work on M and can't with OM.
Rest of December was rocky, but better. No OM contact. I eff up several times. In Late Jan. she starts to contact OM again on work related matters, very in frequently. I don't like it and tell her so.
That kinda leads us to here. The MC was very beneficial. We improved a lot, but I keep sabotaging our progress by getting mad at her or snooping. She keeps contact with OM, but won't give me 100% transparency. She does tell me when she has major contact with him.
She wonders why I keep sabotaging our progress - is it because I really want out and don't have the stones. This leads to my conclusion that I had some WAH/MLC deal last Feb.
Okay..that's longer than thumbnail.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
Trust me that was NOT a beatdown...I'll warn you when one is coming...like "get a helmet on"...
btw, whose thread is this if not yours?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
so, what are you going TO DO DIFFERENT FROM NOW ON?
Remember when I asked you what "trying" meant to you? You didn't say.
I posted a LONG post to you before and it's as if you skim skim skim to find a secret nugget that will save you the actual effort and work this involves and then you ignore what we said.
Stop that. THAT is frustrating... Ya know, if you took the time to answer some of these questions...you'd have some answers staring in your face. That's why we ask them. It's not for US to think about, it's for YOU...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
