WAW, and a bisexual open marriage part 2

[GAL Man]

GB,

Oh man, on one hand I want to slap you for putting up with all this, OTOH, I want to just hug you for trying so hard to be a good man...so that, in a sentence, is my dilemma. How to DB in this situation. I REALLY would like a moderator to step in here or for you to get a DB coach...let's check a few things I do feel fairly confident about...

Hopefully I have done this quote thing right. Anyway HELL GB, I though my sit was something........

I have just read your old threat and got to this point on p1 and had to stop and quote 25, as this is exactly how I read it also.

Sorry......

Once I had read the remainder of this thread I will comment, but thanks for looking at my sit

[greenblue90]

Ok let's clear some things up
We were at a reputable club. In the end it was just one big tease. That being said all dances were done as a couple.

If you guys remember she never felt comfortable exploring with me. She wanted to just go and do her thing. That really hurt. Doing it together though different story. Like young at heart said plenty of couples go to strip clubs together. Now am I naive to think that this will be the end most likely not. There is a silver lining, for the first time in months I am a viable sexual candidate to her. Ever since Saturday she has been very worried that I would prefer one of those girls over her. She has worried that I may love her less now, she worries that I may fall in love with another girl. In other words I can tell she values me more now. Where she used to take me for granted, she is constantly seeking reassurance that I won't just "exchange" her.

Look guys I know how much I'm worth, I know I can pick up women. Seeing me interact with other women put things into perspective. We have had some heart to hearts lately, and I can tell that the open marriage bit is losing some lustre, because just like I have worried about losing her, I can now tell she worries about losing me.

We both agreed yesterday that right now doing things by ourselves is just too hurtful to each other. We also agreed that doing things together can be a lot of fun. Now what exactly means were not sure yet. We know we would both like to go to a strip club together again. We also know we would both be uncomfortable if one of us went alone.

Just last night we watched adult videos together, something that we never would have done in the past before. She was just too jealous about it. Did I mention we saw about 2 minutes before we wound up ml. She even said that she just wanted an excuse to ml with me. For the first time I could tell she wanted me, and didn't even need alcohol (if you guys remember she once said that was the only way she could). She wanted me in a way she hasn't in years.

She even told me, I was very handsome, and girls think I'm cute. She hasn't said anything that flattering in months.

So yeah were still playing with fire. Before though she wanted to plunge into the chasm by herself, not caring about me, because as you guys have said she had taken me for granted.

Now were taking baby steps in exploring a better sex life together. Look guys as of now no lines have been crossed. Yes lines may be crossed one day, on the other hand we may find that all we needed was a little bit of kink, or a lot. As long as we are both happy that is all that matters. If we get to the point where one demands more from the other than they can handle, then yes we go back to square one where I was before. Yes I will have to more than likely leave her.

We are for once working on improving our sex life together, not by each seeking things separately. Where that road takes us I'm not sure. It sure is better, than where we were before Saturday. Let's face it we were plateauing, something had to change.

Ok all that being said I know I haven't been a good DBer I apologize for that. I even considered no longer posting here. Dont want people to think that my actions are DB doctrine. I know they are not.

Not to sound like a downer, but on Friday and Saturday I was about ready to give up. Something had to change, and it did. Is this the silver bullet we had been waiting for probably not, but I feel positive steps have been taken.

I also need to point out that I will be true to myself. I had fun on Saturday. If we ever get to the point where I am no longer happy. I will have to do what I have to do. I just know that I am not there yet, and as long as we are both considerate of each others feelings I think things will be good.

[MrBond]

There's no DB doctrine. If what you're doing works, then do more of it. The only concern is that you were concerned about not wanting to get into that lifestyle. Sounds like both you and her have very low self-esteem.

What are your boundaries here? What are you willing or not willing to do?

[Young at Heart]

.....I can tell she values me more now. Where she used to take me for granted, she is constantly seeking reassurance that I won't just "exchange" her.

.... We have had some heart to hearts lately, and I can tell that the open marriage bit is losing some lustre, because just like I have worried about losing her, I can now tell she worries about losing me.

...We both agreed yesterday that right now doing things by ourselves is just too hurtful to each other. We also agreed that doing things together can be a lot of fun.

...Just last night we watched adult videos together, something that we never would have done in the past before. She was just too jealous about it. Did I mention we saw about 2 minutes before we wound up ml. She even said that she just wanted an excuse to ml with me. For the first time I could tell she wanted me, and didn't even need alcohol (if you guys remember she once said that was the only way she could). She wanted me in a way she hasn't in years.

She even told me, I was very handsome, and girls think I'm cute. She hasn't said anything that flattering in months.

....Now were taking baby steps in exploring a better sex life together. Look guys as of now no lines have been crossed.

...Yes lines may be crossed one day, on the other hand we may find that all we needed was a little bit of kink, or a lot. As long as we are both happy that is all that matters. If we get to the point where one demands more from the other than they can handle, then yes we go back to square one where I was before.

...We are for once working on improving our sex life together, not by each seeking things separately.

It does take two to save a marriage. Whether your wife is into saving the marriage or exploring options as part of her MLC, is a little early to tell. Actions will speak far louder than words. The following will ramble a little more than usual as I am not sure about some of the things that happened.

Having said that, you do have hope and optimism, which is wonderful as it can be infectious. Keep up what works for you, which seems to be GAL and some of the things you have done.

When I look at things I really try to look at actions and not words. Your wife indicated a desire for an open marriage, but based on what you know, hasen't acted on that. Your wife has said she wants a lesbian affair, but not acted on it (with the possible exception of the stripper, which is fairly tame - IMO) and later said she wants men. She has talked about having sex with other men, supporting herself via working in the porn industry, but not acted on this things, just said them. I see the strip club as the closest she has come to acting on her words and you may have just called her bluff by taking her there and giving her a tiny taste of what she said she wanted.

I hope that the taste convinced her it wasn't what she wanted, but that is a risk you face. Again, if it is something that she does want to do, you might want to find out why? Is is the emotional fix she is chasing? If so as a vouyer, as an exhibitionist, as someone who needs to feel jealousy, as an object of attension, as something that is taboo. If she wants that again and you can find out why, then you might be able to channel that into you own bedroom between just the two of you.

If I were in your shoes, knowing what I know, I would carfully read Dr. David Schnarch's Passionate Marriage book. It will be a very hard and boring clinical read. The reason for my suggestion and the part, of the book that I would pay particular attension to have to do with tolerating the discomfort of growth and self-soothing. In your comment you discussed the possibility that as a couple you needed a little more "kink." Schnarch has a fairly neutral perspective on "kink" and how to incorporate it into a passionate marriage.

I suspect that the strip club and the video, both of which seem to have resonated with your wife are what you are referring to and trying to figure out.

For me, MWD's 180's are ways of changing the dynamic in a marriage so that new types of interaction are created. You certainly have created a new interaction style with your wife, and it is one that you view as having benefits and potential future downsides. It will be important for you to examine and guard against the downsides. However, you have listed above many things that are positive about your new dynamic.

One thing that you might want to think about or discuss with your IC is if your wife during her MLC might have been screaming out for your attension by misbehaving and that now that she has your attension she is doing better. You might also contemplate if your strip club adventure was something she deeply enjoyed or if it was a bluff that you called her on. It sounds a little bit like the former, but you should analyze both options.

A parting thought. You commented about "right now doing things by ourselves is just too hurtful", "Now were taking baby steps in exploring a better sex life together", "We are for once working on improving our sex life together." Since, the two things that have seemed to change the dynamic are a "relatively safe" public situation and a video, my suggestion of some tamer alternatives that might resonate with your wife (depending on why those things got to her), could include

• Sinclair Institute videos on better sex or erotic massage,
• trips to a women friendly sex toy store together to have each of you buy a toy for use on you by the other (i.e. you choose something for her to use on you and she chooses something she wants you to use on/with her),
• enroll youselves in a couples massage course at your new location,
• make an appointment for a couples massage where each of you gets a nude massage at the same time in the same room,
• while in Europe go with her to a nude beach or nudest colony for a weekend,
• Plan on attending some kind of masked ball/event (Festival, Halloween Party, etc),
• Insist that she goes out to a nice dinner with you in a nice long dress and no underwear.

Each of the above could appeal to some of the "taboo" or public aspects that may have resonated with your wife and yet they are all relatively "tame" and not creating a potential situation where an affair is likely. Also just talking about them, could help you zero in on what it was that got to her. Then again, they might be too much for her to cope with, so be careful.

Again, good luck keep up your GAL, enjoy your bicylces, enjoy ML to your wife, give her the love she needs in her languages of love. If you do part ways with her part ways as a friend. I think that you are likely rebuilding your relationship with her.

[25yearsmlc]

I disagree, respectfully, with young at heart.

You are not merely playing with fire, you are lighting it next to a gas can with a WARNING sign on it, and yet you are hoping you don't get burned. You will get hurt. Period. The question is when. I think you know this.

This is NOT about going to a strip club, but if it were, I'd probably go along with YAH's analysis. It's about the things she says to you, what she hides, the history of the relationship & how it has devolved, and how often you hurt each other. You seem to get the brunt of the pain in the interactions.

You returned from combat to a lukewarm reception and a bombshell from her. Since then, you have been "wounded" in your own home by your "partner in life". God only knows what she really did while you were over there, and I'm sorry to say that, but surely you wonder.

I feel as if you'd rather take what you can get from her, than to dig, or fix the relationship b/c it would mean she'd leave sooner. That makes me sad for you.

When I read your post and how you describe her unwillingness to go to c, it seems you accept this. Your fear of losing her now is greater than anything else. Okay. I get it.

But I'm a veteran talking to another one, and I have 5 brothers. So

I'm telling you what I'd tell them, which is, you deserve better. Be brave enough to get it...


I really wish you well.

[greenblue90]

Ok so since Saturday she has been the perfect wife.

This is a major change from previous, behavior. She is upbeat, happy, and much more intimate. She is everything I could have ever wanted. Except for one thing, she still logs on that adult dating site. Uggh and I thought we were over that hump. Which drives me so crazy, I mean even the non-sexual intimacy is there.

So young at heart I have to say that we are not piecing she is merely exploring one option in her MLC. I am glad since this is the biggest chance our M has gotten, but knowing I am still competing is driving me nuts.

As stated before nothing has happened, on either of our parts, and we have agreed to try some things together. She told me twice once drunk, once sober that it's a turn on if she sees me hit on women in front of her. (this was recently). I think I might just push that boundary this weekend. See how she likes it.

It's a risky move, but I think the jealousy will be good for her. If she gets mad I'll just tell her to consider how I feel knowing she has people interested in her.

25 I understand what you are trying to say, but understand that I have hit rock bottom this stupid game of "chicken" I'm playing is my last move before the LRT. I want to call her bluff. At the same time, things are going well, I want to continue that so she can see the good things she stands to lose. She has a good husband, and is willing to gamble him. Let's see how far....

[Young at Heart]

Ok so since Saturday she has been the perfect wife.

....Except for one thing, she still logs on that adult dating site.

.....Which drives me so crazy..

.....knowing I am still competing is driving me nuts.

...it's a turn on if she sees me hit on women in front of her. (this was recently). I think I might just push that boundary this weekend. See how she likes it.

It's a risky move, but I think the jealousy will be good for her. If she gets mad I'll just tell her to consider how I feel knowing she has people interested in her.

....I'm playing is my last move before the LRT. I want to call her bluff. ....

I am unsure what I would do, if I were in your shoes. Listen to others and choose what seems best to you.

My view is that we should judge each other more by actions than by words.

My view is that someone who is acting out in an immature way is that they often do things for attention and doing something wrong is an easy way to get attention.

Be very observant when she logs onto the dating site and control your emotions so you don't give her a way to control your emotions, as she may be testing you. Just like with the languages of love, our natural inclination is to give love in the language that we want to receive it. Similarly, if jealously is her hot button, she may expect that jealousy (you seeing her on a dating website) is your hot button. Actions, not words or images.

Ultimately, it will take two to save your marriage. That means that at some point she needs to work on making the marriage work. It will probably not be all at once and probably in fits and starts with backsliding and relapses.

Sort of sounds like where you are.

As a former Nice Guy, I really want what is best for my wife, but I also understand that I can't changer her, I can only wait for her to change and then support those positive changes to reinforce that behavior.

Since with a few obvious exceptions, she is exhibiting desired behaviors, what have you been doing to make sure her new pattern of action is being reinforced? Have you been lavish in your positive reinforcement? Remember you are dealing with an adult MLC child (to a certain degree).

Again as a former Nice Guy who wants what is best for me and my wife, I wouldn't intentionally try to "hurt" my wife's feelings.

On the other hand, if jealousy is something that helps motivate my wife, then I would try to figure out a way to add that kind of role playing into our relationship in a very controlled way. In a way that if she starts to feel uncomfortable she will be able to stop things. Or if I start to not like what is happening, I can stop things.

However, that might give my wife the ability to "test" me or try to control me, which is not good. As 25 says (and you agree), it is playing with fire.

I am reacting to you comment, "...push that boundary this weekend. See how she likes it.."

I guess what I really want to tell you is don't do something to make her jealous with a negative intent. If the two of you want to explore her jealousy, do it as a positive thing you are giving to her.

As always work on your GAL, visualize what you want out of a good marriage, make plans and set measurable goals so you achieve it. Good luck.

[greenblue90]

Why!
She got a uti from ml on Monday. In the past a nurse blamed it on me. This was one of the things that started killing our sex life years ago. I know this is crazy, but I truly believe that this whole open thing is a symptom of problems in our personal relationship. This is a huge setback. She just told me this morning that the UTI's make her not want sex with me, and said she doesn't understand why she only has gotten them from me.

God I hate that nurse.

[25yearsmlc]

the UTI is not exactly caused by ML, per se...it's from certain practices done while ML, which you need to alter. Learn those. And Do not apologize for ML to your w. (BTW, we women all get them sometimes. Enough of the anger and blame... )

And wth about her "only getting them from you" and Not any OMs...she needed to tell you that? Nice touch.

[Young at Heart]

...it's from certain practices done while ML, which you need to alter. Learn those....

25, Please enlighten all the rest of us, on what we need to know.

What I have observed over years of marriage is only certain kinds of lubricants are allowed to go anywhere near her vagina (& saliva is not one of them) and that my wife feels it is important to go to the bathroom (pee) before and right after ML no matter how much I want to hold her and she will never take a bath (showers only) or go in a hot tube no matter what.

What am I missing?