Won't stand for a broken family

[25yearsmlc]

If this is fine with you then why do any R talk? I hate to say this if it's out of line so feel free to ignore it...but I just don't see the IC's point here.

Your h just said he's NOT ready to go further into the R right now, (and some other more self pitying things as well). He's resisting R talk so I'd back off way back. I DO think knowing there's a risk of losing you, will be sufficient, in time, as a motivation for change and if not, then you'll know something important about h and his qualities as a h for the future. IDK when that should happen. Depends on you and whether you'll need movement one way or the other and when.

If things are stable enough right now, & your times are relatively good, I guess I wonder, why rock the boat? For now, I mean.

Catch your breath, keep things smooth enough to stabilize and let the dust settle a bit.

As for the OW issue, it's possible that you may have to let that go. Must you know everything IF it is over?
Do you feel helped by knowing all the details? I am not saying either way (heard that "After the Affair" is a good book).

I just felt helped by moving "from this day forward" and not trying to view our marital history identically. Besides, turns out h had a different "lens" with which h saw things and we definitely had different score cards, if you know what I mean. So we let go of them.

So we agreed on some basics, owned our part in things, vowed to do things differently, and went forward. Also attended Retrovaille after a year of Piecing. THAT helped more than I expected and at that time, h showed remorse he'd been feeling far longer and deeper than I had realized...
I finally realized, "wow, h really does GET it..." and it did a lot for us.
food for thought

[Timetotry]

Thanks Calystra. I won't push.

Thanks 25 for your advice that I appreciate and will follow.

Stable, yes, but I hate being alone. Sure 4 kids help but I want a partner in life; I miss my companion. I want it to be him and I am concerned for myself as to how long I will wait for that again. As of today, I will wait but I can't answer for a year from now. Yet, 5 months ago I said I'd be dating again by now. I can't just throw away 20 wonderful years with the one I want to be with.

Why do ever I want to know about OW? I want to make sure that his word and promise hold, nothing more than that. Last time I got alot of details and wish I never asked for them looking back. If there was an OW this time, I'd just want to know that it happenend, nothing more. So I can deal with my thoughts and move 'from this day forward' then. If I didn't know, I'd always wonder 'what if' I think.

I have been challenging myself with the idea to believe its a new relationship with a new man (even though I know his flaws). So if he had past experiences, just as if I was dating someone new, it doesn't matter, only present and future does.

I am scared though that as time passes he may want to start seeing other people too and then there is no chance of a R/M. Not sure if its a boundary of mine just yet but I know it would be a hard pill to swallow. I know if I let the R be, it will happen if its 'meant to be'. I always had control of sorts and I now have none in this sitch. Its such a life learning lesson; one I was never interested in learning.

[25yearsmlc]

I always had control of sorts and I now have none in this sitch. Its such a life learning lesson; one I was never interested in learning.

OMG, that is so very true. Learning to LIVE the Serenity prayer and to turn things over to a Higher Power, (and not take it back the next day) was perhaps the biggest lesson. That, and truly forgiving someone, mostly as a favor to yourself...yeah, hard hard lessons to learn. But such good ones.

[Timetotry]

I don't know what the he!! is the matter with me that I wanted to finish and clarify the rest of the texting last night! I should have known what I was in for!

I said I wanted to make sure what I was supposed to discussed is finished. I mentioned how the counselor said about confused verses divorce. He said he isn’t confused at all and thinks the same way since he left. He says that he is still wanting a divorce. He was waiting, he is fine with how we are right now, no fighting, no negativity, etc. He says he comes around for the kids and to be friends since we have to be in each others lives forever cause of kids and he knows once he files I will be different. Then he said "Well that is what you said at the beginning but then you changed to say its just a piece of paper". I said "But you said you were confused on Easter" and he said "no, he was just missing the kids and doesn’t want to come back for that reason cause that isn’t right". I just nodded and said it has to start with friendship to goto the next level. I asked "Well this limbo can’t last forever like a few years, its not fair to everyone. The IC is suggesting that we talk/meet to ensure we are on the same page whether its to D or M and not discussing gets us nowhere." He said "I think I would make a decision within the next few months anyway but maybe my mind will change". Yet, he then said how good I look and tried to make another pass at me and said he hopes it doesn’t change the physical attraction he has for me. OMG! Not the time and place to say that!

Hour later I get a text:
H:Hope what I said came across right…I know my head is a confusing place to be.
Me: Ur not confused. Ur still going to divorce but ur waiting to file and you don’t want to have me get mad and effect kids. Right?
Him: Right now yes…doesn’t mean months from now.
Me: What not months from now? Divorce? If so then ur thoughts are thinking towards divorce but you want space and time to see if thoughts change? Is that the right message? Sorry to ask but want to pass on the right one. Kinda like a sabbatical then?
Him: Close.

OMG! He is confused or he is using me! Someone hit me with a 4 by 8!!

[25yearsmlc]

seems he's NOT so confused. He is cake eating. Sorry, I didn't know until he posted that.

Of course, if you want, you can choose to call it MLC and ignore whatever he says. But dang, he sure sounds as if he wants to do what the hell he wants, including ML to you and divorcing you but OH NO, he doesn't want the effects (ie the consequences) to be unpleasant...oh...gee, too bad it all stinks for you...Not very adult like, is it? Maybe there is some truth to his pathology. To admit, in effect, that he wants all the benefits of marriage but NONE of the responsibilities, or commitments, is pretty amazing to admit. And pretty unappealing from the standpoint of the spoues, I'd think.

Sorry but I'd be very clear if I were you. I'd re-cap w/ something like

so you do want a divorce at some point? And Time, that is really the ONLY question that matters. NOT if he ALSO wants to have sex, or whether he ALSO wants to play with the kids, etc. That all will come out with the agreements you two sign off on...

Just, clarifying that which seems clear now. But if it's not clear to you, then ask that ONE question to clarify/re=cap so you know what you are truly facing.

It'll make the intimacy issues easier to answer, I think.

Sorry.

[Timetotry]

25, now you sound exactly like my IC. She won't phrase it as MLC but that's where he is acting as if he is 17 and narcisstic. He says he had to leave to live for himself and be selfish even if it hurts the kids. She says he won't accept any responsibility and is actually a coward in all of this; escaping reality as an adult.

She actually has said "Move on because he needs therapy, years of it, and do I really want to stay married to someone like that"? She has only seen one other case like this in 20 years of practice. But remember I still am not sure since he has not seen her and I just don't believe the things that are coming out of his mouth.

Yet, I gotta wonder why he is ok staying at his mom's (like a 17 year old)when he didn't like being around her in the first place. Yes, he can afford his own place but he says its depressing and isn't ready to commit to one. He complains about that; I stay quiet but I can't stand how she enables him right now for her own benefit. Again the IC though of self-centered person only wanting to fufill his own needs. Like getting a $3K puppy because he is lonely when we pay for college out of pocket and tells D1 to start taking loans. Why not pick one up at a local SPCA if he's lonely. IC thinks he was like this for many years and I just never noticed until something exploded in him.

Isn't the whole idea here though to bust that thought process of divorce? I ask him that point blank again?

He just called again a little while ago asking what am I doing, what is for dinner, what he did this afternoon, etc. I don't think he really wants a divorce; I believe his actions state otherwise. Yet, the words that come out of his mouth are so damn hurtful.

And as for the D, he hasn't even talked to a lawyer yet. I have and he has no idea what he is walking away from. I don't want that to be the reason to reconcile (I am a Finance/Acctg Director and he is an IT Director who has no clue about managing money). I interviewed 3 lawyers and know who'd I go with, if the day come to retain one to prepare myself for every other angle but the emotional one.

[25yearsmlc]

but see, I am NOT telling you to give up. I am saying he's cake eating. The difference between your IC and me is that MAYBE ( to be fair, I have not met HER either)

But imo, what she SEEMS to be saying is that it's hopeless, get out of the M, whereas I am saying, what you are doing is NOT working out so well. He's leaning away from coming back IF TODAY's messages are to be believed...(fyi, my h never said he wanted a div, he just acted like he was single and had blinders on)...Also, from where I"m sitting, isn't there a bit of "enabling" on your end too? (I mean, "what's for dinner?"....)

I wonder if you were to do something that gets him to see what he risks losing, whether it would wake him up. But it has to be something you mean to do, as opposed to merely a tactic.

IF we had a crystal ball and knew you were eventually going to file for div, I'd argue that he ought to be given the best "warning" possible b/c sometimes, women wait to file or do any legal or financial action, until they are so worn out they have NO motivation to work on things. Then, like my fil and his ex w, the h gets hit with a ton of bricks on the head and suddenly gets it and wants to work on things and maybe they DO CHANGE but oops, too late...his ex w simply waited til she had zero love for him, b/c as long as she felt something positive, she stayed. But in hindsight, had she left him while she still loved him, they might be m today. Do you see my point?

So I'm saying if you are getting tired of this, and I can see why you would, just don't wait til you hate the guy before you do something. B/C if he can change, it's probably only going to be b/c he HAS to... So far, he has not had to, really. You can tell by his questions..."What's for dinner"? (I might have said, "I dont' know, where are you eating tonight?")

As Lotus said, and she's not proud of it, she would NOT have changed for her m or h, until she saw her h making moves to a new life b/c he was so unhappy being mistreated. The idea that he was planning to leave her for his own happiness and was making a new life (poss with OW I don't know) and that she REALLY WAS PROBABLY GOING TO LOSE HIM...[b]woke her up.
[/b]
Food for thought. I tend to believe we treat people as badly as they'll allow. Sounds terrible but it's a rut most of us fall into. IN that regard, my "ordeal" was good for us as a couple. I am a better w now than before.

From what I'm seeing/hearing now, I cannot say your h is coming closer, he is just enjoying all the ups of married life and none of the duties, all the rights, none of the responsibilities.

His purchase of a 3k dog when you have kids in college is...honestly, terrible BUT you know, he probably never thought of her needs vis a vis what he wanted. IOW he did not consciously say "let me spend it HERE instead of there..."he didn't think about anything other than what HE wanted...see my point? Nothing intentionally selfish...just oblivious. Is that something you can handle the rest of your life?

They are not intentionally jerks. (NO ONE IS) But that doesn't mean they aren't jerks. SIGH...it's not hopeless but man, when I dropped the rope with my h, and started applying for work ELSEWHERE, other states and a one year gig in ITaly, and h had moved away up NORTH to the tundra/land of adventures and immortality and unicorns and gold rush and blah blah blah....ANYHOW, I had a feeling once he achieved the goal he had set, (passing the boards, getting the DREAM JOB and setting things up, he might wonder about us)...THAT NIGHT, after the boards, he called and said he missed us...(I swear he opened his eyes, looked around and said 'where is everyone?" Oh, oops, 3000 miles away...Damn"

Then he called daily and more, for a year, before I joined him and we worked it out and returned here...talk about work!

But yes, he "gets it" and he regrets it and is working hard on his R with d22...they have dinner once a month and do really seem closer, but she's been deeply frightened of marriage. Says she's clear on why I made my choices but does not know if she could ever make and keep vows like I did. Says she is proud of me for it, etc. My goal this year is to show her my happiness with her dad so she sees I'm no martyr...Just lucky. Make sense?

Sorry about your sitch. I have a feeling something will have to "scare your h straight" like the show does...(no, not scared straight by jail, But by the fear of losing YOU and the homelife he SO takes from granted.....

[Timetotry]

Ok so planets have shifted a bit the last hour or so. I am on the wayyyyy top of the rollercoaster right now.

H: Sorry for calling so much today I'm not sure our conversation was complete but I can tell you didn't want to talk. I feel like an as@ today. Have a good nite. Sorry.

Me: Sorry, just busy! You called at a bad time and you know what Sunday after dinner is like! What else was missing from conversation? Ur set on divorce and just waiting a few months.

H: You asked me where I was right now, I was honest but I never know what could happen. I don't want to fight. I shouldn't have said anything.

M: Yes, I did, I know, my therapist wanted me to ask. Yes, I know no one ever knows and I agree. I'm not fighting at all! I need honesty. I do see counselors point that how could either of us expect a way to make a firm decision no one would regret without talk and spending time to see. Bad feelings subside, sure, but we both avoid and that is how we got into this mess. So I am doing 180s for myself and putting out there as I should. With whomever I am with, I fear nothing and don't leave a stone unturned. A true partner mind, body and soul is what I want and would only want the same from me.

H:I agree with the last part 100%. And when you asked me about right now I also said I like where we are now; not deep but a way of being civil to see if we can get by the small things and move to the next step. I just can't rush into that. I'd like to go on a date someone in the future, just dinner or a drink and talk. Not deep though, kinda like a new start, make sense?

(Here is where my heart dropped-now he wants to be with a OW??)

M:You said someone or did you mean sometime?someone else? Please explain.

H:Sorry, sometime, damn autocorrect

M:Ok sometime with me? Just to be clear?

H:Yes with you..has to be slow and little things for now, if you can?

(Here I pulled back up...to the sky-so glad I asked)

M:That is exactly where I am too. We need to do it right and rediscover the different persons we became. We don't know each other like we should and could. Wow. Can't believe we are agreeing. We focused on the kids, now gotta get to know each other to see if we should be with each other.

H: Well lets pick a day sometime soon, go for a drink, just something small and see, sound ok?

M:Sounds like a plan.

H: Glad we talked, Good nite beautiful.

M: Gnite.

What in the world happened? As fast as I want to detach so bad I get drawn back in. I have got focus on a report due tomorrow and I can care less right now! A small thing can turn into something so big!

[Timetotry]

25,I had to laugh.

No way, I wasn't having him over for dinner! He was just asking what we were having at the house! Family dinner time was always important to us and he misses that so much. But hey, he choose to leave.

Maybe me coming forward and facing my fear today struck him the way I needed too?

Who knows, only time will tell!

[25yearsmlc]

take it slow. Don't be over eager okay? That'll make him think you have expectations and you cannot have them right now.

Just have a drink with him then...in time you'll know if it's cake eating or progress. But I don't know how much time. That's up to you and all I can say to that, is "Where the head goes, the heart, eventually, will follow".

So think with your head, and not your fears of loss or all your needs or terror of being without him...okay? Also, try YOU being the one who needs to figure things out, not just him. You don't have to be so certain he's who you want...