Mission 25. I Really Mean it this time>

[~ kd ~]

That's the spirit! (pun intended) I have been thinking about talking to my priest and attending Saturday evening mass. I'm also re-acquainting myself with meditation and other spiritual endeavours.

Good for you! It should help you find your centre!

[ninelives]

Just leaping back to my thread from Denver's. And I dont feel too bad for being on Denver's. He knows he can live on mine if need be.

Thanks for the 2x4's 25. All well founded. Yes clingy and selfcentered not good qualities for sure. Working on them.

What I did when I found out was really bad. After we were back together last July, she was really stand offish with me. NO interaction whatsoever. She wouldn't hug me or even look into my eyes.

Almost Ruined our KISS concert by being so nasty most of the day. Texting in front of me all the way down to the concert and during dinner b4 concert. Absolutely sabatoged our anniversary where I went all out to make it nice and romantic. She didnt want to have the champagne I had chilled by the pool after our dinner together where half we through she insisted on talking about a business venture we went into together when I have asked her many time not to bring that up again because it upsets her.

The reason I m bringing these up was that all tha went through my head when I found out.

The worst thing that happened is that she had him in our bed when I was gone for holidays with the kids. She asked if she could use my house to get away from her b1tchy mother since she was living with her at the time. We were separated and she didnt have her own house yet. That was so bad.

When i caught her via blackberry, there were messages from OM about me, since it was Halloween night , and we were partying together. She ignored me all night and was mean. ONly time she came up to me was when she wanted me to buy her a drink. We were actually at the bar where he was working as a DJ.

He texted soooo many times. When we got home, she said she was tired and wanted to go to bed. We used to always have sex when we got home from the Halloween party. She came out of our bedroom and was in her panties, skimpy ones at that, and walked into the kitchen, then went back into the room.

When I went in, she immediately got up and went out to the living room. Said she'd be back. ( BTW, she was texting when I walked into the room)

I waited for about 30 min, looked at some photoalbums and then came out and she was " passed out on the coach with her blackberry still in her hand"

Thats when i checked her messages.

Two messages I will never forget from OM and this is the first time I saw his name:

" You better not touch 9 tonight, Ill be really p1ssed if i ever find out you touched him. If you do, it will be like getting raped, is that what you want, to get raped once a month by him"

He made another jealous comment about some tattoo gyt that has done her butterfly tattoo. He apparently propositioned my wife though he himself is married and has two kids.

The Om made a stupid threatening comment that he would do damage to his house and didnt care who was there.

And there were over a dozen other texts with him calley her honey etc.

I lost my mind. i woke her up, the whole suicide thing was threatedne.

When she finally admitted to sleeping with him despite denying the entire time. I spit in her face. I was so angry. I regretteed doing that hours later, but at the time. I did not.

She said, " Im glad you did that, I deserve that "

But recently she said I did that to her twice. Once here and once at the hospital. That was not the case.

I said to her., that when she was here, She hit me in the neck twice because I kept asking her to leave.

Anyway, that is what I did when I finally learned the truth. Talk about dramatic. UGGGGHHHHHH

Not proud but I thought you might want to know the truth 25.

9

[25yearsmlc]

9, You wanted some feedback...get a helmet.

Okay , just got back from Church. Felt good, got to go in with low expectaions and just let things happen. It was good to be around the positive energy that church provides.

That comment about having low expectations of church really struck me. It's as if you feel great about not expecting an instant fix. Well, um, yeah.

lady...told me how much I meant to her daughter as a teacher. Im not trying to sound egotistical but I hear that alot, even heard it later from another parent when I was at the grocery store. Makes me feel good, Like I am making a difference.

Good for you

That used to bother my Wife when parents stopped me and told me things like that.

Oh come on...really? She hated that you did well at work? She wanted you to get fired? What??? Keep up the negative mind reading. It's so helpful.


She mentioned that I should have put that type of effort into our family.


OH THAT'S DIFFERENT ISN'T IT?? She's saying that at HOME you are not the hero and she needs more than you are giving HER.
You're saying that people praising your work, bothered your w? Why do I sense a whole lot of mind reading? You taught, you graded papers at home I assume, and you coached how many teams? You like sports. You were away a lot. Your attention was not on the M...and btw, Does your w love sports?

I can see how she would feel that way , but I dont think I neglected my family because I put everything into my school,

re-read that sentence and ask yourself if you might be missing something...when you add in what SHE TOLD YOU, with this comment, there's a gem of insight that you are skipping by...too painful??? Then look at it. Get brave. The real journey in DBing is an inward one.
I did coach alot however was still home by 5:30 ish.. I could have been home earlier and maybe helped with supper and the like.

You're getting closer to the truth but after all this time you still sound so defensive. Like your insights into yourself are immediately explained away. You have a scorecard and for every thing you concede not doing well, you add in something SHE Did bad, or you pat yourself on the back for something else...Hard to get an accurate read on things. Lose the dang scorecard. It's blocking you from moving forward in a big way. Do you have any idea what I mean?


I just thought I was being a dedicated teacher. I look at what I did with the family and it was as much as anybody. I coached both my sons on their teams, played with them, cooked some of the meals. IDK. COuld she be jealous of some of my success?

NO. But I bet she felt neglected. Or unfulfilled in her career. There's a big difference. See scorecard comment above.



ONe thing I didt help enough with for sure was the laundry. Could have and should have helped way more with that.

That's a small tiny thing and you know it. Is that supposed to show insight here? Come on, dig a lot deeper.

Anyway, getting back to the Church thing, I lit a candle and took communion today in honour of forgiveness. I am trying to recognize that she was unhappy and frail and doesnt always make good decisions.

She was hospitalized for psychiatric reasons...Christ, have you forgotten that? And who ALWAYS makes good decisions. You? Come on...Oh, and btw, according to "Psychology Today", 90% of women who take AD's, feel they have critical husbands...just thought I'd mention that.


I am not for ONE second condoning what she did ,

Yeah, we KNOW!!! The whole world knows.


but Im trying to let go of the anger.


Really? How?

That is all I can do and maybe it will help.

"maybe it will help"...the one guarantee I can make in your situation is that IT WILL CERTAINLY HELP....OMG...

It wont be a quick fix either, its going to take me a great deal of time to truly forgive and Im not sure If I can totally , but its a start.

9

If you cannot forgive, then move on now and own that.Otherwise, You'll just make yourself into a martyr or victim, and her into the evil one.

I'm betting she fears that You'll hold it over her head forever, or throw it in her face every time you fight and that is fatal to a good marriage.
Single biggest reason WAS's don't come home when they want to, is b/c they believe the LBSer won't forgive or will micromanage under the guise of "rebuilding trust" and their lives will be endless shame and punishment. What have you done to allay that fear? Oh, not a lot. You are NOW thinking that letting go of the anger "might" help...geez...

Without forgiveness, (which you really need to read up about) Your kids will see major grudge holding, zero forgiveness, zero compassion for someone with emotional issues or who is simply a flawed human like the rest of us.

It's been over a year and you have barely entertained the concept of letting go of this. THEN YOU immediately say you won't condone it, as if anyone in their right mind thought you were, or confuses forgiveness with THAT... And you know, who cares anyhow? I don't care if you condone it or not. The forgiveness is so YOU wont' be stuck for as long as YOU have chosen to be. It isn't for her, per se.

Seems to me, You have put your anger and pride/ego being bruised, above nearly all else. Hence the punitive nature of things and glacial pace towards peace or forgiveness. For a man who wanted to be m to a woman, you have taken a long time to figure out that you have to be loving and kind and show her that marriage to you today & "from this day forward" would NOT be a repeat of the past, or worse, you hanging the sword of Damacles over her head forever.

I am just so glad that she has not completely disconnected from you or become indifferent, which would mean she had no feelings for you...

Say, you stated long ago you could not find the DB DR books...so, I didn't notice whether you finally got the DB books after what, a year and some months??? Have you?

Your m has been troubled a long time. I see that. But I don't see healthy approaches to much, just a lot of grievances you have held onto WAY too long.


I guess I don't buy that you were a great h, although you sound like a dedicated coach and sport lover. But you concede the most minor of flaws and sort of joke about the sex. Did she enjoy it with you? Was it MUTUALLY enjoyable most of the time? Did you connect with her, and make it more than a physical release for you? When my father died, my libido disappeared. But my desire for intimacy and closeness with my h, did not. When our d22 graduated from college last week, we ML in a celebratory way. ML is not just about the sex, for most of us. It's a source of comfort, celebration, connecting, apologizing, forgiving, etc. What was it for you two?

Your w sounds as if she's been dealing with some mental and emotional illness and you engage in behavior to match. If she is struggling with that issue you've been dealing with this in an odd way.

For example, You are not seeing a c for learning how to deal with her illness? If she were an alcoholic (and if you were a healthy spouse of one), you'd be in Al Anon and or you'd do an intervention to focus on the real issues....not the "conversation" that day and whether she was flirting with someone.

And btw, it's obvious to me, after reading your early thread, that OM is nothing. He's a symptom. The reason you focus on him, is your bruised ego. I do not mean to make light of the wound. But I do think you should by now realize he's not the threat to your m.

You have more control in this than you have exercised. (B/C you have not been in control of your own behavior and for that, you probably ought to see someone professional. Don't be offended by that comment, be helped by it. I saw a C when my dad died. It helped a lot!

You could make a much bigger difference in things, but you seem hell bent on reminding us and yourself of all her indiscretions, you skim over her genuine emotional illness, and put almost all of the serious blame for the m problems, on her. So maybe it is hopeless. But If she had diabetes, would you whine about her symptoms and how they make YOU feel, and how she won't have sex with you b/c she's in a coma, and how wacky she acts when her insulin is too high, or would you learn about diabetes, "in sickness and in health" and get her treated and learn how to inject her when she needs it??? Well?

[ninelives]

I have responded twice to this post 25 and both times I was interupted, once by a very good friend of mine whos boyfriend just ended it. The irony of it all.


I am finishing my basement this summer and dont think I ll be needing to buy any lumber. I have a nice neat supply of 2x4's stacked in the corner. I am not saying for one minute that I dont deserve most of them. It is humbling to read these. Its funny, I thought I was a decent husband however, I have seen myself some of my shortcomings in the past. I didnt dream that there were so many; approaching jerk status.

I do wish to address some of the statements. I didnt expect an instant fix about Church or feel great about it. Its something I have struggled with, I have tried to allow the spirit of God in me but have always come up short. I do KNOW i need something bigger than me. No disrespect was intended.


There is NO question my ego is bruised. Another short coming for sure. I am trying to get passed this as well. Stop signing the OM. Friday was an exercise in being in same room at the bar.
Trying to get passed that.
I will lose the scorecard. I want to start with a clean slate.

I am trying to let go of the anger by reading here and reading about forgiveness and by going to Church and praying. I am trying with babysteps.

She did hate her job and still does. I really tried to pump her up about her job. She is a nurses aid and feels unappreciated. I often tried to tell her that she has a lot of empathy for her patients and that she wasnt simply a sh1t cleaner as she often phrased it. One thing about my wife, she was often jealous of other people and their roles. She did not like teachers or gatherings because she felt "inferior" and she didnt have to. Again , I often tried to pump her up when she brought up those ideas. At other gatherings she would get cut off while telling a story because she has trouble getting her point across. I would listen to these stories and sometimes she would be telling them to me for the fourth or fifth time because people stopped listening. These were not just teacher parties. I felt sorry for her and loved her even more. She does have things to say but has low self esteem.

I have read both books, trouble is she has them both right now.
When we were "piecing" I asked her to read the section and she has never given them back. Says she doesnt know where they are right now.

Again , you are right about her Psych issues. I should have seen a therapist about that. I didnt have much faith in the profession. Growing up in a Greek family where my dad was in charge, ( and a hell of a cheater) left my mom for a waitress, etc.. I thought therapy was for the weak. I was wrong as wrong can be. My dad came back but I was so hurt with his cheating. It cost us everything, lost the restaurant, my mom was so hurt, had to move away from my friends. I guess that stuck with me.

There is no question I made just about every mistake in the DR books. I dont know how permanent the damage is. Impatience is something I have also struggled with at times.

I thank you 25 for your continued patience and insight. I always thought I was a pretty good person, but I see alot of flaws that need to be addressed. I am not taking offence to this critique as it is for the benefit of me and my family.


UPDATE:

Got youngest son back today. He was showing me his new soccer shoes and guards and new toys.

He was in the city with mother. They watched a movie. Iasked if he took any of his friends and he said there was no room. Then quickly changed the subject. ( i got it)

I was working around the house when he came outside and said,

" Dad , If i tell you something, will you get upset"?

M: NO honey, you know you can tell me anything, whats up.

S: OM was there with us and brought his 3 year old son.
( just said his name)

( Jolt went through me, son was hugging me at time and didnt see my face which is probably good, dont know what I looked like)

M: Thats ok buddy, was it a good movie?

S: Yeah, but OM had to leave with his son because he got scared.

M: Okay, buddy . Glad you liked the movie.

Then I had to say one of the hardest things I ever had to say to him.

M-" You know mom and dad love you very much and just want you to be happy. Im glad OM is nice to you and you dont have to feel wierd around him.

S: I do feel kinda wierd , especially since he was driving our van.

( another jolt- the van wife and I paid for over the years, just got a mental pic and it was hard to erase)

M: Dont worry about it buddy. Give me another squeeze.

He did and we talked about something else.

She is really progressing her relationship with him. Now she is introducing my son to his and are going on outings.

Wow, but I guess that is to be expected.

I did not call her or text her. Im pretty sure that I would not have done that so soon. I think its confusing my son and I think its not showing any respect to our relationship that we had.

But that is my cross to bear.

Not over yet, but I think its getting closer to being so.

9

My mother is the single most important person in my life. I admire the hell out of her and how she tried to raise us despite my dad's ways. My MOM is sooo bitter towards my W and doesnt even want me to talk to her at all. Ofcourse this is a conflict with the advice on this site. I understand where my Mom is coming from but ultimately, I have to do what is best for my family.

[ninelives]

Forgot to mention, wife did call today before I got son home and just when I was in the middle of a 25 barrage of 2x4's.

W: Hello is oldest son there

M: Hello, no hes not here, hes at a friends

W: He said he would come over and he didnt. I want him to try on some shorts.

M: In this weather, i dont think its ever going to be summer. Im freezing

W: Turn up the heat.

M: In MAY? Im just in the basement. Its alwys cold down here.

W: Well go upstairs and open the shade that will warm you up.

M: Good plan, Im going now, How are you?

W: Im good, how about yourself?

M: HMMMMM , I dont know, freezing my arse off at the moment.

W: Is it cold outside?

M: You havent been out yet?

W: No but I opened the door.

M: Thats a start,now just get your arse outside and you will see.

( she laughed)

I think we talked a little more but im not sure.(isnt that crazy)

I remember thinking " i got to be nice but end the convo"

M: Okay, well I have a few things to do around here so I better go.

W: Okay , talk to you later.

That was it .
Then my friend called from highschool. I feel so bad for her as her boyfriend just ended with her despite suggesting they move in together. This girl is such a sweetheart and went through an awful relationship with her cheating husband five years ago.

She finally gets it together and is in a good relationship and now this. She is devasted and has called me around 4 times.

I am using some sound Db advice for her. I feel ten times worse for her as she was so devasted when she kicked out her husband.

She could not accept the multiple affairs he had. Poor girl.

9

[25yearsmlc]

9,

I am sorry for the 2 x 4's. But right after you post some insightful post, you actually backslide in the same post or thread! That's like backsliding in seconds...

So this has been going on for a LONG TIME, but you still reel from the smallest disclosures. Why, 9, why?

You almost lost it when your son said that OM drove the family car, which she has. Why would your son know that this is some big issue to you? (B/C you told him or said it all in front of him...why?)

I honestly don't even see how this is such a biggie. You want HER to drive? You want her to never let him drive a car that, what? You paid for? Is this an important boundary? It's not an enforcable one, btw. But really, Is this important? Why does this crush you, after being sep for years? Is that accurate?

And then, you said something was what your "cross to bear"? You said that and I'm not sure what you're referrring to. BUT, do you See the terminolgy here? See the victimhood? That is not attractive, or strong, or even realistic. Plus, your son will probably end up somehow telling your w that you got SO UPSET and that means she still has all the power. You are giving it all away. I really hope you don't teach your son's to fall apart or nurse their wounds for so long.

And tragically, do you See how your son is bearing the burden of your emotional frailty? How sad is it, that you are leaning on HIM & He is comforting you?

Please don't share anymore negatives about w, with (your sons) or with your mom b/c then she will not support a reconciliation. How could she? You'll have to own up to some of this if you ever want your mom's support. All DBers have to learn who they can share things with and who not to.

So, now you don't have the DB books b/c.??...( read your past posts about this topic b/c it always struck me as emblematic of your whole situation...the learned helplessness. As if it's all her fault and NOT within your control...)

Um, you took awhile to get the books, finally got them. The first thing you said about them that I noticed, was that you lent them to HER, which DB says not to do, and you could not read them then, b/c you wanted to get HER to read them, specifically certain chapters...then you waited for her to give them back, or find them, and you couldn't read them again then, or order new ones b/c.....??? and you were "waiting" for her to read them, or she lost them or blah blah blah ENOUGH...just order another copy and never mention the books to her again. Ever. No need to. Wouldn't She say "You did none of these things, you hypocrite!" I mean, just get another copy 9. I KNOW YOU WANT TO DO THIS RIGHT...start with the simple steps. Re-read the book...

My questions and concerns and frustrations center around the fact that your marriage problems have been on going 1-2 years, but the DBing sounds new. Why is that? In short, How long have you been dealing with this? We can't assess progress if this is new, but if it's going on 2 years then a different yardstick is needed.

Okay, so, do you know what you want? Can you set some goals that are measurable? What are the 180's? And are you doing any GAL that gets you to meet new people? How far is this island community from civilization? You have to start somewhere. And stop wallowing in pity OR self loathing. You're not a bum or a loser. But you are stuck. AND only you can get yourself unstuck.

Set an example for your boys, please....they are obviously watching you.
Be the man you aspire to be. Be a man only a fool would leave. I think you can do this. I really do. I don't know what has to "Snap" in you or what lightning has to strike, b/c that's NOT what happened to me or my friends who DBd well. We all just came to a point where WE CHOSE to do things differently and though we had our backslides, we mostly moved forward.

And we're better for it. You really can do this.

[ninelives]

25. We were separated back during the Olympics 2010 till JUly. 4 months ( no mention of OM at that point at all)

We got back till A was discovered last Oct 30. So almost 7 months.

Started DBing without A around April, 10 . Seemed easier to do without knowledge of Affair.

Started again in November something. Much harder this time with OM , it just is.

I have protected my sons from this reasonably well. Especially my youngest son. I havent bad mouthed OM at all to him or made a him look bad. Ive held my tongue.

Dont know what older son has said to him. Older son knows about the affair. He is very dissappointed with his mom and I have mentioned that mom still loves you etc..

My MOM is very kind and sweet but when riled. She has from the start even before affair given me advice to never take her back.

My mom has seen alot , been through hell and back with my dad's infedility over the years. I even Have a half sister out there which i have never met. Mom was even physically tortured after WW2 when Greece was in jeopardy of becoming communist.

Like I said, she is the sweetest, kindest perons until she feels she has been crossed. I kept the affair from her for a long time and she finally told me that my brother told me about it so i may as well come clean.( a little fib on her part) and I did.

I never saw my mom like that. She absolutely loved my W. But not now. Its a long story.

IF ever we recon, my mom made it very clear that my W is not welcome in her house but thats fine, my W hated going to visit them as she found the trip long and the visiting boring. My parents are both now bedridden. Its very tough to see that happen to them as they were both workaholics.

Restaurant business was very busy so they did not take a very active role in childrearing. Little house on the prarie was my guidance for the most part. Charles was my father figure after my dad left for awhile.

Anyway. I am really trying to forgive and show my sons the old me.

9

[2stepboogie]

9:

It is a work in progress, believe me. In the end you feel better about taking the higher rd I can't explain it, it just kind of happens that way.

Dealing with OM is huge in intself but I believe if you make the committment to do it then button up cause I'm sure it can get extremely hard.

As I have told you before, kids always come first.

Making changes that stick is the real trick here but if you can do it then you are going to reap the benefits.

Been away all weekend but wanted to stop by and check in with you