WAW, and a bisexual open marriage

[greenblue90]

Yeah the OW thing was just venting, don't really want it.

I need a course of action, the only thing I have gotten is just to get a D. I keep waiting for an alternative but I'm starting to lose hope. I have a feeling tonight will be nice for us, but no real progress...Sigh

[~ kd ~]

Seems I'm following 25 around these days...

As 25 says, OP is NOT a tactic to win over spouse and save M.

While some on this board bring it up as a question and you may hear RL support tell you to make her jealous, I personally would only entertain that idea as a fantasy and using the thought as a way of blowing off steam from frustration.

There does seem to be a few around here these days that actually ARE considering OP. But NOT as a tactic. It's because we've dropped the rope and are getting on with our lives.

Personally, I would NEVER have an OP. When single, I would NEVER hitch up with someone who was in a relationship or M. AND, I never had more than one R at a time. That's just how I roll.

My D is not even filed, still waiting another two or probably three months just for the start of mediation. But... I have to be perfectly honest with myself that I do not believe there is any further hope to recon in my M. And I've grieved the loss of my M. And only having gone through that, can I consider an OP a possibility... and that is ONLY a possibility at this time.

Having said that... GALing with friends, including those of the opposite sex, is certainly more than acceptable. I would just caution that GALing with opposite sex has a possible risk. KNOW that and ACT accordingly. I have offended someone during my separation specifically because I said I wanted to be clear that there was nothing that I would do that could be a behaviour of EA or PA. But again... I would rather be clear and offend, then risk M over that...

[Young at Heart]

But YAH, did your w tell you she wanted OPs sexually? I mean, that's a pretty big obstacle here.

And I don't hear anything from her about working on HER issues. At all.

You make a number of good points.

No, my wife didn't talk about an OP, so you are right. But I did learn that words and actions are two different things.

GB's wife has talked about an OP, but according to GB, she hasn't acted on it.

I wonder if she is serious or it is a "threat" she knows will get GB's attension and her complaints about his changing his mind are her way of grinding in her tool that got his attension?

You are absolutely right, in my book having an EA or PA is not really compatable with DB'ing.

As to GB's wife refusing counseling and not working on her issues, I agree with you, that is bridge she will need to cross if things are to significantly improve.

She really sounds like someone who is immature, in an MLC, and confused about what she wants for herself. However, she is still young and they don't have children, so she hasn't had to "grow up." Any young woman that goes out drinking with relatives and friends and gets roaring drunk, hasn't yet grown up in my book. That is partially why I would view her actions as being louder than her words. It hasn't been that long ago that my two adult children were teenagers rebelling against their parents and authority.

Hell, up until close to the time that I got married, I could have been called immature, self-centered, and confused about what I wanted for myself. Getting serious about a woman, being responsible at a job, & wanting to settle down had an incredible impact on me.

I do like the advise you are giving GB. I just come from a different set of experiences and am "explaining" what I have lived and learned onto GB's situation. You are absolutelly right in cautioning GB that what worked for me, may not work for him. I agree completely, that GB needs to figure out what works for his wife and screen out any advice he tries that doesn't work.

[greenblue90]

25 yrs, young at heart
Your support specially in the last 24 hours has been really appreciated.

25yrs:

I get my reality checks from you, you remind me of what is unacceptable, and have helped me stand up for myself. By helping me see how outrageous some of her behavior is, I gain the strength to set the boundaries we need.

Young at heart

You have shown me a completely different way of loving, my W. When I am about to lose it, you also put things into perspective, but you bring me back to loving her.

The advise from the both of you has brought me to a hopefully healthier center.

Unfortunately I feel like I am going WAS myself right now. It's like the vampire hunter who has been bitten and can slowly feel himself transforming.

I thought about the last two weeks, and why they were so great. She was on her period, so sex was not an issue. Once this was removed it allowed us to really make progress we were together because we liked to spend time with each other. She didn't feel the need for sex, and then the disgust of not wanting me. When she was on her period, she didn't worry about sex so she could be herself, and get close. Once she could have sex again, she probably got the urge whenever I would get close, and as young at heart has mentioned, picks fights because she herself does not understand how she feels.

On the other hand, this is the third time in the last three months that she goes nuts after her period is over, and she can have sex again. Last night I tried approaching us getting help, she didn't want to hear it. This really frustrated me, the fight that ensued afterwards made things worse.

I am left wondering is she willing to pitch in her part?

I just don't feel anymore that she ever was, and doubt that she ever will.

God knows I want her to!

I keep taking her reluctance to leave as a good sign, her reluctance to actually work on this is a bad sign.

She actually made me a smoothie as we were fighting a few minutes ago, I love her smoothies, and I let her know it was delicious, this seemed to put her in a good mood. She likes it when I love her food. Is this that sign I was asking for? Maybe..... Is this sign enough to keep me from going WAS myself....I don't know.

[OnMyWay]

gb90,

I was once in a relationship where my SO & I got in the "habit" of always fighting about everything. I finally had enough and made the conscious decision to stop - to no longer engage in that type of behavior. It was difficult on her, but she eventually learned, once I wouldn't engage her any longer, to change her approach and we finally began getting along.

If you want to have a better life and you feel W is immature, then it may be up to you to show her the way. Lead by example.

It takes hard work and a lot of will power to avoid habit fighting over nothing. However, you can change the course here by choosing differently.

Small steps here. First one, cut the fighting.

[greenblue90]

Thanks that advise really helps I'll start applying it now!!!

[♪CS♪]

gb90, I got caught up on your sitch last night. It really is a complicated one, I am sorry you find yourself here.

You have gotten some really good advice already, I urge you to go back and read through some of it again. I know some things can sound tough, but the truth is, this IS tough. Don't take things personally, you can be sure everyone is trying to help.

First, I do NOT consider this an 'open' marriage. I don't have personal experience with it, but my understanding is an 'open' M means BOTH S's agree and BOTH S's want and open M. You clearly do NOT want this.

Your W's bi-sexuality might blur the lines, but I think in the end it, it doesn't really matter. She is asking/telling you she wants to have an A. This is really disturbing to me. I know it hurts, but you need to look at the reality of this situation. You need to ask yourself what YOUR boundaries are.

I only accepted because after reading DB and this forum I have come to realize that this is not a decision I can make for her. I know she herself has some serious misgivings about this arrangement, and I want her to fully make this decision for the sake of the marriage. I want to save the M hopefully close it someday

DB talks about validating, but IMO that does NOT mean validating a S's desire to have an A. Validating does NOT equal agreeing.

I hope you decide to come with me." She got quiet then asked if I had said that to spite her. (I didn't I swear). I replied "no I just want you to know that good times are coming and that I hope you can join me". She got quiet again

I want you to remember this ^^^. You said here that you were willing to go without her. That you will have a great time whether she goes or not. Look at her reaction to this.

I don't see the DBing in your behavior

I have to agree with this. What does DB'ing mean to you? What are your specific goals? What is your plan?

IN DR, MWD says the LRT is appropriate when your S has said they want a D, or/and are having an A.

I think based on your story, you should using the LRT, or at least something much closer to it. What I have read, you are NOT following this advice. To be brutally honest, not even close.

At this point I asked her: Do YOU want to spend time with me

This is just one example, but IMO you are still very much clinging to her, asking for time together, engaging in unproductive R talks and have your emotions fully attached to the words and actions of your W.

So, my advice is to back WAY off. Start living life for YOU. You show your W that you are a fun, confidence, independent, exciting guy. This comes from GAL and 180's. STOPPING any pursuing behavior, detaching emotionally from the R, and avoiding R talks.

Look again at your W's reaction when you talked about leaving without her. Now I am NOT saying you threaten leaving her, or anything of the sort, you simply SHOW her with ACTIONS that you can have a happy fulfilling life without her. The truth is YOU CAN!

where she just doesn't see me as an exciting and dynamic person.

Yep that's it. No skydiving, no scuba, dance lessons, or martial arts. Nothing cool or interesting is available here

The small town might make things more difficult, but to say you CANNOT do more exciting things because of it, IS an EXCUSE. Start NOW.

One thing to note here, DON'T do things for your W's benefit, they truly need to be for you. GAL means getting out and enjoying yourself. Combined with 180's it means pushing yourself to try new things. Being an exciting and dynamic person.

Now once I move!! Man that is going to be great!

See above, DON'T wait. The attitude of, "as soon as..." or "just wait until.." will keep you trapped. YOU decide. YOU chose. Remember, We do not see things as they are. We see them as WE are.

make yourself happy first.

YES!!!!

It's weird NMMNG wants me to take care of myself first but DB wants me to listen, validate and change where appropriate. I am trying to find that happy medium.

I don't see any conflict here. You DO need to take care of yourself first. No question. IMO, it really comes down to needing to do this to have the strength it takes to get through this. Take care of yourself first so you are a happy and confident guy. This will take EVERY bit of strength you have. Get yourself to a good place FIRST. I think someone said it before, its like in an airplane when they tell you to put your mask on first, before assisting a child. Same thing. You CANNOT save your M without first saving yourself.

Hope this helps.

I will follow up with a good set of rules that sandi posts. It is a great summary.

Like others have said, thank you for your service. We are all VERY grateful. I think your military training will come in handy here. Plus we can finally answer the question, what's worse, the Taliban or a WAW?

[ninelives]

Hey GB, adding my two cents.

Listen to Country, great advice. Validating is one thing but IF YOU DONT WANT your wife having an A, you dont validate that pure and simple. There are moral boundries that we all have and that is one of them. Forgiving is a completely different thing but condoning an ongoing lifestyle like that would be difficult for most.

Some people can handle that. I have friends that are swingers and you would never know that, but they are both in favour of that so I guess its allright. Not my cup of tea.

PLEASE follow the advice as closely as you can. I have been the poster boy for Trying and Understanding the right thing but having my Emotions take over and thats when things DONT GO WELL.

I know we are all human, ( except some of the extreme Walkaways) and we will make mistakes. The key is not to make the same mistakes over and over. Detaching is so important and so very difficult.

Dont beat yourself up over the backslides but dont brush them off either. Learn what works and continue that and stop doing things that dont work.

Easier said than done like most things in life but if you truly want things to work, you have to do things that seem counterintuitive.

Keep reading, keep posting and try and step back before you do anything silly fueled by emotion.

It has really hurt my sitch over this last year and a half.

ONe last thing, when trying to GAL, mean it for you and not to show her. Again, easier said than that but eventually, you will start enjoying what life has to offer and focussing less on her and how she affects you. YOu enjoyed life before her and will do it again some day if need be. She doesnt define you as a person.

Good luck.

9

[♪CS♪]

I have given this list out to many people. Some read it and try to apply it's priciples. Some ignore it and never get very far. It is up to you. However, it is basically written for the couple who are under the same roof, but it can be for S couples also. It is just a "quick list" of the DB rules. I'll give you them and check back with you tomorrow.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, etc.
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.)
8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.)
10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make
matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it too......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life!
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the
conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or short on words, but don't sound rude. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home!
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!)
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill, b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.)
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time.
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse.
35. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

[greenblue90]

The overwhelming support in the last 24 hours has been amazing....

Thanks to all.

That being said I think it is time for a new thread....