Keep us posted. If your changes are real and permanent, man, it's crazy to lose that. You're a man only a fool would leave. If she doesn't get it, and it's real, then it's her loss. You won't be alone all your life.
25yrs That quote really inspired me. It really helped me tonight.
Well the day today was very turbulent. We had an appointment on post we almost didn't make. As usual she took forever to get ready. I tried not to pressure her too much, but we made it. On the way there she started complaining about the service on post, I told her that shouldn't be a problem because of my rank. She just laughed at me. I got very upset at that, and told her I was going to show her how much influence I really have if they gave us trouble. A few minutes later, she put on her band which she hasn't worn in 2 weeks almost. She said "time to pretend again". I got REAL ANGRY, but stayed quiet. She could tell I was not laughing at this remark. She asked if anything was wrong, all I could say was. "Did you have to say it like that? That was very hurtful." She apologized, then sarcastically said. "ok time to do this schizzle again" I didn't laugh as she thought I would.
I stayed quiet then she had to ask. "are you mad?" I said "no but I am still bothered about how you don't respect me, and my rank." She tried explaining herself, tried to cheer me up. I wasn't being receptive, then she said "you look nice today...." I tried not to let it bother me specially since we were going on post, so I put it behind me.
After the appointment she was upset because she didn't like the picture they took. She then turned it on me and started criticizing me, and everything I had done in the last 2 hours. I tried to ignore it, but she kept pushing. She then said she didn't know what to do, because I annoyed her soo much. I told her I was working on it, she replied with "no you're not". I asked if she wanted anything for lunch, she said no. I said I wanted a subway sandwhich, she said she didn't care, and would just eat at home. I said ok. I drove to subway, and of course she got upset, guess the eating at home was a hint. Well I went in anyway, and told her I wanted subway. She stayed in the car. I get back in, and she actually apologized.... (I was shocked) She said she was frustrated and didn't know what to do. I tried telling her how it was hard, and that I was working on it, but she should cut me "some" slack. She got upset, and said "You are NOT trying". We drove home and I ate my sandwhich.
Close to finishing it, she asked me if there was anything else I'd like to do today. I said no, she said "well the car still needs an oil change, but I don't want to go wait for it." I said "don't worry about it I'll take care of it". She said "you don't have to go do it by yourself". I told her it was no problem, and that the card shop was 3 blocks away and I would just walk there and get some games in. She thanked me very sincerely 3 times.
To be honest I just wanted to get away from the house. We are down to one car, and that gave me a good excuse to just get away. I had a lot of fun playing cards. I'm amazed how good I have gotten.
I got back things seemed to be good again. We watched TV, she she started mentioning that she had problems, and needed help, maybe a nap would help. I knew this meant she was in the mood, but didn't want to do it with me. A few minutes later, she finally snapped and said "I'm in the mood and there's nothing I can do about it, I'm going to go take a nap."
At this point I read 25 yrs's post, and it gave me the courage I needed.
15 mins into her nap I decided to confront her. I walked in and asked "have you been able to nap?" She replied "no not at all". I said good, because I want to discuss something.
I brought up counseling, and tried telling her that it could really help us. That we were plateauing, and that maybe we needed some help. That I knew she was frustrated both sexually and emotionally, and that this might help. She once again refused. I told her we could maybe make it without, but it would make things take longer. She said she didn't want to keep waiting. I told her that she'd have to make a choice then. We talked about my newly gained insights, I told her about how ML is not just about "getting off" but feeling connected. She seemed skeptical, we talked about the migraines she used to get, how they killed her libido, and how surely she must have been annoyed by my insistence to ml when she clearly didn't want to. We talked about her feeling forced to give me duty sex, or as she called it "pity sex". We talked about how this type of sex killed intimacy, and was most likely the reason that she thought ml with me was so lame and boring. Years of duty sex most likely killed all excitement and sparks.
She talked about how she wanted the excitement again, couldn't see herself with me, and was thinking that the lack of excitement in our sex life was from the fact that the "newness" of a new partner was gone, and the only way to recapture this was with new partners. I told her I disagreed, and that we could capture that excitement and that it would take a lot of work.
She then said, "but I NEED it NOW", I said "well I do TOO". She then brought up that I was free to find someone else if I wanted to. I told her that was not what I wanted, that I didn't want sex, I wanted to ML with HER. She said that she couldn't and that she felt like a teen with her hormones all over the place. She talked about her same sex wants, we talked about her maybe just being a lesbian. She said that was not it at all. She wanted guys not me.
I then thought about your quote 25yrs and grabbed my pair and told her: If you do it would hurt me a lot, I don't want you too. She tried to be understanding, but then said: "I know it's hard, but are you trying to take it back?" I knew what this meant, she was referring to an earlier incident where I tried to close the marriage and she freaked out on me. She said that I had tricked her, and that I had switched the tables on her, and that I was dishonest. She really turned the tables on me, and since I was so weak I took it. She was actually mad at me for weeks afterwards and convinced me to leave the marriage open. (She got what she wanted, and then punished me for even considering challenging her).
Well not this time. I told I wasn't comfortable with it, and that is not what I wanted. She then said well what's the point, let's just get divorced... I told her "well if you feel that way there is nothing I can do."
The rest of the conversation revolved around her telling me all her reservations, how she was afraid of things not working, or whether she could continue to be faithful. I kept telling her that if she didn't think it would work she was free to leave, there would be no hard feelings. She said she felt I was pressuring her to stay. I told her there was no such thing, that she knew as I know that there is nothing I could do once she makes up her mind. I told her that she was here by choice, and that if she wanted to stay then she needs to work on this with me. I got the typical WAW response: " I don't know" I reassured her that I understood why she felt that way. We talked about how she most likely couldn't make up her mind, because she couldn't believe I had really changed. She agreed. I told her that would take time. She said she didn't know if she was willing to wait. I reminded her she was free to leave.
We talked about co-dependancy and inter-dependency. I told her I had long realized I couldn't stop her, and that I had to learn to not to need her. She worriedly asked "You don't need me anymore?!" I explained, that there is a difference between appreciating someone in their life, and "needing them". That I was the former, that she brightened my day and enriched my life, that I wanted to be with her, but didn't NEED her. Finally I said it was like the difference between good "needing" and bad "needing" she seemed to understand this. I emphasized that she was free to leave, and I accepted that. Things got a little awkward, so I told her "I'll give you some time to think alone" I then left the room.
Been watching Triathlon on TV and typing this post since. She actually came out for a few minutes to have some cereal, she seemed to be in a good mood, until she saw what I was watching. She asked "are you really watching this?!" I said yeah, trying to learn from the pro's. She seemed annoyed. I told her, if you want to watch something else I can go watch this in the bedroom. She said no I'll go. I said ok..... She is currently in the room watching tv by herself.... correction she just called for me to see a Conan sketch (she seems in a good mood again).... and asked if triathlon is over....told her not yet.....well that's enough for now I'll post more later.....phew what a night so far.
Things seemed to be going better, but I started wondering if she was still actively pursuing other partners. So I point blank asked her if she was. She said she had stopped for a while but was thinking about starting again. I told her that she should consider not having that as an option. I told her I believed that her being able to seek other people only harmed our chances of ever healing our sex life since it meant that she didnt have to focus on the problem that is tearing apart our M. She got very defensive and started saying she wasn't capable of doing that. We argued about it, then she started saying that I was changing my mind again, and that she couldn't trust me to keep my word. I knew she wanted to go back to her old WAW excuse that she can't trust me, because I keep attempting to close the M. I told her that we should try to say monogamous, until we are stable enough to be open. All she could say was that she couldn't stay in a close one. She did briefly mention that she didnt know if she would like an open marriage, but that for know she knew she just has to meet her needs. Well at this moment I got weak, and told her that the only reason I was attempting to close the marriage was because I was about to decide to start pursuing myself, but wanted to give monogamy one last chance. She told me she didn't believe me, and that she didn't trust me anymore, and didn't think the M was worth all the fights. She asked me to get her D papers. I tried explaining myself and my state of mind, and somehow we got to talking about PTSD. How it made me needy, and indecisive. I kept trying to emphasize that things didn't have to end that we could get help. All she could talk about was about how her life is ruined now that she HAS to divorce me. Go figure....
We went to bed, had a terrible nights sleep, woke up ate some cereal. No apology breakfast waiting for me. She may snap out of this, I'm not holding my breath. This exact issue, and her complaint that I changed my mind and couldn't be trusted is what led us to the first separation.
Trying to hold on to hope that a miracle will happen and she will snap out of it, but I'm not holding my breath. Last time this happened she ran away for 2 weeks. With less than a month before the move things seem even more grim. The worst part is that I am considering pursuing someone myself to be honest an EA or a PA would be great. Technically I have permission. I honestly just want some female attention right now. Need to feel wanted. I know it's just more neediness, but I'm seriously hurting.
I think I will still get her coffee to show her I care. I'm so confused.
ouch...my other random thoughts are as follows. You have the right to change your mind. An essential element of most successful m's is monogamy and if you have doubts about a "promise" you were forced to make to get her to stay, you're allowed to express those doubts and you are allowed to change your mind! I see nothing wrong with that. Her feeble attempts to make you "commit" to allowing her OPs and saying she does NOT TRUST YOU, is really just extortion and it's out of line and seriously makes it out to be your fault. Few men would allow for this b/c what I think she's saying is "I will leave you if you don't let me cheat AND I don't want to be with you anyhow-which I'll tell you to your face- AND I don't know if I ever will....oh and you have to pay for everything, I don't have to be pleasant or courteous to you, I don't have to touch you, I get to tell you I'm not attracted to you at all-AND it's all your fault b/c you're not 'new' anymore" and "no I won't get help" because...."b/c I don't feel like it". Therefore you can have very little hope that anything will change...(how's THAT for a cold splash in the face?)
That's a lot to handle GB.
The rank thing irked me too, as a veteran and wife of a soldier. But maybe that's just a respect thing and it's another symptom. I don't get it. I thought your comments were mostly right on target and I love what you said about feeling connected and wanting that with HER. She's really turning away from some real love and I can only assume she's got a really low self esteem and few conflict resolution skills. Was her family life messed up?
I know you love her and want to make it work. But there are some key essentials missing here. I hope she changes her mind and decides to work on them. Do you see yourself as a happy man, the way things are? I don't get the feeling she's interested in changing. IN fact she's being very clear about that.
Does she have any idea what life would REALLY be like for her, if you two divorced? I mean, it's as if she thinks it would be a smooth transition. IT would not. She loses housing, health insurance and has to support herself and does not get to live overseas. I'm a little surprised she doesn't feel any pressure to make things work. She may not realize it, but in many ways, she needs you more than you need her. Yet the balance in the M gives her all the power and I don't get that.
BTW, the idea that you are "pressuring" her to stay in the m, well, duh. You wanted it to work.
I guess my question for her is, [b]What does she really expect from you?[/b
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I found posting my thoughts and problems on this website to be very theraputic....a way of venting and getting my feelings out in the open where I and others could look closely at them.
Before my wife choose to commit to rebuilding our relationship, she backslide and fought like hell. She also questioned what she really wanted for herself. Once she decided on her making changes to save the marriage she challenged my changes to make sure she wasn't wasting her efforts. She also had some deep converstations where she really tried to verify if I had been serious about leaving her if I didn't get the love I needed.
As horrible as you may feel, you are doing very well. Ultimately, your marriage will fail or succeed based on if your wife wants it to. You cann't make her change, you can only inspire her (lead by example) that change is possible and reinforce her changes.
I keep a diary (that is encrypted so my wife can't read it). In it are my thoughts, words of wisdom from others along with my personal goals for the coming year, promises to myself regarding my GAL, etc.
Your comments on need sounded familiar to something in my diary. The following were some words of wisdom from others that I put in my diary as a reminder.
Quote:
Word of wisdom from others:
……….include physical intimacy and sex in our Marriage in a way that is loving and emotionally/physically rewarding for both of us, as I am not interested in coercing you to be a body for sex.
……when a person finally finds the guts to say, "You know, our marriage is hurting me, and I no longer think I deserve to diminish myself in order to stay in it. I choose to become healthy and whole; I recognize that I don't NEED you to love myself, and while I'd like to have you in my life I'll be fine without you" --that's the only point when marriages can turn around.
…"Let's stop fighting. I really love you. I know what you need in this marriage. I'm gonna try my best to give it to you. If you're not getting what you want let me know what I could do better …"and I really appreciate you and I'm glad I married you."
A couple of digressions that may help you.
The first is some insights I found into why my wife may have not wanted to have had sex with me. I realize that your wife probably isn't quite ready yet to have sex with you, but this is to help you understand things, when she changes her mind, at some point in the future.
I want to clearly state that I really am not a great fan of Hartley, but I think that he has some insights that are of value. One of the things that I think that Dr. Chapman missed in his 5LL book is the importance of recreational companionship. I feel that to some extent it is almost a 6th language of love. It is the most important thing that I feel Hartley has to say for me.
This is a concept that Hartley talks about a lot. The reason that I bring it up as a digression, is because you recently purchased touring bicycles and I wanted you to be able to fully understand the potential power of that investment in your marriage.
Finding out your wife's desires in regards to the touring bicyle is important. It will be a way for the two of you to help rebuild your relationship, if you do it right. Is she looking at the freedom to travel special places? Is she looking forward to picnics and the great out of doors? There are truly lots of places one can go on bicycles in Europe that you can't easily get to by car, trails, cannal/river bank routes, City pedestrian only zones, etc.
Similarly, one of my favorite things to do in Europe is to do picnics with my wife. There is nothing finer than a nice day, a nice bottle of wine, 100 grams of cheese, 100 grams of sausage, and some fresh baked local bread and the woman I love in a beautiful setting. My wife finds it romantic and also really enjoys it as well.
Your touring bicycles should be a great way of adding recreational companionship to your relationship, along with helping you in your triathalon training and letting her feel like she is sharing this with you. Even though my wife hates running, she will come to watch me finish my half-marathons and drive me to lunch and then home.
She is even talking about entering a 5km "fun walk" associated with the next half-marathon that I am signed up to run. She is trying to be there and participate as a recreational companion, even if she will not "run" a race. I have been very supportive of her trying to share this GAL activitiy of mine, in her own way.
Focus on the positive, visualize what you feel a successful marriage will be like, apologize for having hurt your wife in the past, forgive her for her hurting you, read and learn about relationships, continue your GAL efforts, and be proud of yourself and who you are.
Good luck, you will find happiness.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
young at heart makes some very lovely points but I am not sure the situations are that alike.
It won't hurt you to read Hartley's words or the other resources of course. And I get the point about the bikes and recreational time together. But YAH, did your w tell you she wanted OPs sexually? I mean, that's a pretty big obstacle here.
And I don't hear anything from her about working on HER issues. At all. I mean, I've got to say that GB deserves kudos for coping as well as he has. There are a lot of things going on in this M that I am worried about.
You deserve to be happy and loved GB. And wanted. If you are an active duty soldier there's no way you are a slob or out of shape so I really think you need to realize you are a good catch. Especially with your attitude about change.
Very cool. Keep at it but I still ask, What does she expect from you?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I don't know what she wants anymore. I suspect she herself does not know. All I know are her complaints.
1. Not physically attracted
2. I'm indecisive when it comes to making plans (I was just trying to give her a choice).
3. I am too loud (she gets mad at me if I don't whisper like a mouse in public. She says it's rude.)
4. I don't use proper grammar (this is merely ridculous on her part since i speak near perfect English, but that's not good enough.)
5. She has a huge lists of things I can do wrong around the house, everything must be perfectly where she wants it despite the house being a complete mess.
So yeah i have worked on a lot of these picky things, and they have helped to get us not to want to kill each other. As you said though we can't seem to work on the hard stuff. She doesn't know what she wants from me, so I am clueless too. Rebuilding intimacy has been ridiculously hard. She still finds kisses and hugs awkward. I was hoping being tougher would help, it's gotten me mixed results. I want her so badly.
So this morning I was simply expecting her to be in full WAW mode. I bought her coffee as a peace offering, then on my way home she sent me a cute sleepy smiley. I arrived home a few minutes later, then gave her, Her cup. She seemed overjoyed to see me, and to get coffee. I guess she noticed my relief because she asked why I was in such a good mood. I told her it was the coffee. She was playing with the stuffed animal I got her for our anniversary. We have this thing where we give the stuffed animals voices, and we interact with them as if they were our pets. Every stuffed animal has a different personality. I know it's weird, but it brings us lots of laughs and smiles.
She then asked me what WE were doing on June 4. I told her there were no plans to which she said "there's plans now". One of the cousins she hung out last week with was having a house warming party that day on the other side of the border. I told her that maybe I could get permission to go, she then said it would be awkward if I went for her cousins. (what am I supposed to do that weekend without a car and her 6 hrs away?!)
I stepped out to take a nap, woke up she was still in a good mood. She asked if I was going to play cards tonight. We have had plans for weeks to watch Priest. Then again based on the sitch she is probably wondering how I feel. I told her I still want to go, she said premiere nights are always crowded. As of now I have no clue what she wants for tonight better make plans and be firm as to what I want.
I thought it was over, not sure why she calmed down. Although based on how she has acted. She is not running away. The way the fight ended I am pretty sure the marriage is still open. I even told her last night I was going to pursue partners for myself. What was I thinking, although the way I feel right now having my own OW sounds great.
She can be so wonderful, yet ever since going WAW has been twisted and evil. She currently jumps back and forth.
A friend told me something needs to happen for her to appreciate me. I have been wondering if an OW can be the catalyst. Technically it's ok right?
I understand that you are lonely and your needs are far from being met. But the DBers warn against OP for a couple reasons I can think of. First, DBers are not into "open" marriages. I know you feel differently but they (and I agree with them) don't see them working and they premise their whole view of marriage as being a two person partnership, not a multiple party entity.
2) you don't actually want OP anyhow. It's a tactic to get her and that means you'd be using OW, who is a human with feelings and doesn't deserve to be used this way. And your needs are so unmet, with no end in sight, that you cannot imagine living like this feeling so lonely. I get that. But it's not going to do anything but complicate a bad situation.
3) AND you'd be modelling the very behavior you don't want, from your w.
Finally, this is not to say you can't be "mysterious" or "busy" and attractive to OWs...that may well get to her. Sounds silly but she's rather immature in some ways so who knows?
Thing is, GB, my perspective is not what you want to hear. You sound like a good guy trying super hard to be loved as you want to be, and as you deserve to be.
But you are m to someone who doesn't want to change, (per her refusal to get any professional help). She wants to get her way or she'll walk...how can you be m and walk on eggshells like that, and for how long?
Plus, in effect, is she saying she wants LESS closeness with you, not more?
Am I getting it right that she openly says she wants other lovers BUT NOT YOU, her own H?
Also, she seems hell bent on holding you to some promise you made under duress, that allows her to pretend she's a victimof you breaking your word & therefore being "untrustworthy"??
From where I sit, it sounds crazy and unfair. From where I sit, you are the aggrieved party, not her. She wants to cheat, so she says YOU are not trustworthy b/c you no longer think an "open M" is a good idea???? I'm sorry, but I didn't take my crazy pills today.
GB, you are one patient man. But how can you make it if you don't know what she wants or expects, AND she hurts you repeatedly, and without any plan for it to stop?? I mean, when does this end? When do you get to ML to your w? When do you get to stop fearing she'll walk out the door? Will you always live with that constant, relentless fear? When will she be a reliable partner?
When do you think your needs will be addressed? I don't mean you have to have a date and time, but if she's literally not willing to see a c, and throws out the div word a few times a week, and won't meet your needs, and has a list of your flaws for YOU to work on, but none of her own, well, when does this get better? I don't sense a plan of action here.
What are you going to do when she does have OM? You going to be okay with that? I don't think so and btw, I seriously want you to be realistic about OW for her...
Your fantasy and the reason you may have agreed in the first place, is highly UNlikely to come true. OW will be a threat to your m, not an asset.
I don't see your w as inviting you into the bed more than once, if then. On the contrary, I think it just doubles her chance of an A, and does the m no good.
She may need to go out and discover what a great catch you are and maybe that's only going to happen by her being set free. But what is happening right now, I just don't understand. I hope you get some DB coach time. It's worth it. Well worth it. What's stopping you?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
