As for my question about making the m better than it was before, well, if it's not going to be better, than why would he bother coming back? And if it is going to be better, how so? What will YOU do to make it so?
The bottom line is that if the LBSer cannot demonstrate in some way that it will be a different or better m than the one the WAS walked away from, then it's usually doomed. In fact, how was your m better - different the last time you two reconciled, from the 1st time he left?
Good luck
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
The main problem is that there is no specific behavior of mine that he (or I) can point to that fixes what he sees as the "fundamental flaw" in our R.
There are things I can work on (getting a life, a job, friends, being a more interesting person) that may have contributed a little. There are past behaviors that I have neglected (loving actions, talking his love language, validation, active listening) that certainly make him feel better.
But creating desire, passion, need, want and sexual attraction? That I'm not sure how to do. If I did know how to do it, we wouldn't be here. I can look my best, wear sexy outfit and keep dropping the weight but those are again just token actions at this point. As everyone says, 80some% of sex is mental and he isn't letting me in enough right now for that kind of connection.
So even if I can make him feel happier and loved, he still sees this "fundamental flaw" between us. I've told him straight up that there are a lot of tools and a lot of resources we have not explored to fix our problems. He looks at them all and makes up his mind, "Not going to work." and so he's done - without trying anything.
In Chapter Two of DR, MWD says it best when she talks about the "expert's mind set". That's where he is at right now.
The tricky thing about this sitch is that my H knows knows all this stuff even though he's ignoring it. He read all these books back in 2003 when we went through things in the first place. DR, The Sex Starved Marriage, The Road Less Travelled, The 5 Love Languages, etc. He participated on this board for at least a month or two.
It doesn't mean that these tactics don't work on him - they still do! However, he knows what I'm doing, he knows what I'm capable of doing and he knows I will work and fight for this thing til I can't fight anymore. He knows I believe there are ways to fix this. I pointed out examples from our own C session that we never followed up on and how we could have approached that with a different mindset, etc. He just thinks he knows it all right now and has made up his mind.
I'm not sure what to show him so that he would understand how things would be different in areas of desire/attraction specifically. I'm totally open to ideas. And yes, I think I've decided to get a DB coach instead of searching to find a pro-M counselor here. It'll work if I have to change states too that way.
There are good points to this sitch though and believe me, I am not missing them: * H has not moved out of the house. * While he has initiated talks about finances, splitting our possessions and my "timeline" here in this house, he hasn't made any major movement in the D arena. * H is trying to make himself open for talking although I think this is a huge mistake right now even though I backslid last night.
I think a good short-term goal is that I need to make him feel more comfortable in this house right now. Today he ducked out early for work (after 3 or 4 hours of sleep) before I woke up and he's got a birthday party to go to tonight so he'll be late. When this first happened he spent almost 5 days avoiding this house and that's just not good for either of us. So it's happy face, no R talk, be nice and put those neglected skills back into play.
I already started today by saying it was nice laughing with him last night and I would miss that in the future. (He said "I know.") I thanked him for doing the laundry, dishes and cleaning up the house. I offered to get him anything from the store as I was going there (came home to a house with barely any food). I offered to work around our schedules of car usage since we only have the one (he was going to approach all this like he didn't have a car and it was completely for my use).
Back in the day I had some killer goals. I decided to whip them out again and set some short term ones for myself.
1. Find myself again. * Get on medication. * Workout regularly. * Get more friends. * Spend more time with friends. * Get involved in hobbies. * Get a job. Current Progress: * Started today. * Personal trainer 3x a week. Cardio on off days. * Have one good friend, need to find a way to meet others. * Going out during the week and weekends with friend. * Will start golfing again soon. * Starting to noodle on the job front. Results: Resuming the personal trainer after being away for two weeks. I have to work on the motivation to get myself out the door for the cardio on the off days better. I have one good friend and need to make more - maybe through this friend somehow? Not sure what to do on the job front, I'll have a good scrub through craigslist soon. I'm not sure getting a permanent job out here in my career is a move I want to make right now.
2. Resume friendly behaviors with H. * Talking regularly. (1x or more a day?) * Laughing together. * Feeling safe sharing things. * Feeling supported/being supportive. * Doing some kind of activity together (1x a week?) How I Will Accomplish This: * Staying happy and light in conversation. * Listening more than talking. * Giving H full attention, making eye contact if in person. * Validating H's feelings. * Validating H's wants and needs. * Letting H know his wants and needs are important to me. * Talking his love language - words of affirmation. Current Progress: * Need to work on being happy and lighthearted. Right now I'm talking about the R too much, pushing him away and making him defensive. * Need to work on listening too, I'm not doing well yet although he doesn't have much to say right now. * Full attention is not a problem right now. I am making eye contact with him but he does not return it. * Trying to validate where I can. It's hard when I don't understand and he doesn't want to talk. * Right now his wants and needs are getting out of this D, I've told him I'll go along with what he wants without a fight. * I have to purposely remember to do this. I have complimented H but I need to be more aware. Results: Not sure yet. Like I said he's feeling pushed to defend himself at this point by my actions so I need to back off here. I'm just starting the work in the other areas, time will tell.
3. Work on the M with H as an active participant. * H will be open to self help books or other materials. * H will actively participate in counseling to repair the M. * H will not take further action on the D. * H will not move out of the house. How Will I Accomplish This: * I'm not sure. Current Progress: * ... Results: He hasn't moved out of the house yet. He has read a few things from the boards that I sent in email - things he wrote when we were back here. He hasn't taken too much action on the D yet.
Since we do have some systemic issues in our R that need work, I also have a list of long term goals that I want to work on. These are a little more rough and without the baby steps for now. We're nowhere near them but I'm hoping this starts the answer to "how do I show him how this M is going to be different if he comes back".
1. My H and I will be attracted to each other on a physical level. (Want each other, desire each other.) * He will fondle or touch me when we are not just in bed. * He will initiate sex. * He will flirt with me and talk about doing sexual things with me.
2. We will have good sex - we will be mentally turned on to each other as well as physically. (Passion, need.) * He will talk more during sex about what he wants and what I want as well as just plain 'dirty talk'. * He will talk about my reactions during the acts as well as his reactions. * He will spend time touching me in places that aren't erogenous zones. * He will be more playful and try new things. * He will give me more compliments.
3. We will communicate more openly about problems in the R. * He will be comfortable talking to me about things that cause conflict, negative feelings, problems or things that may hurt me. * I won't react harshly or shut him down when he brings up these subjects.
I'd really like to get in for a 1 or 2 day intensive with MWD but I'm not sure how to convince the H at this point. I wonder how some of those couples did that...
And we're playing the avoidance game again. He got home at 11 (I'd gone to bed early but it woke me up). He didn't get up and moving or come downstairs until 1:30pm. He had everything packed to go hang out with his friend today. He sat down and said he was making himself available to talk. I said is it going to change anything? He said no. I gestured a 'what's the point then' kind of shrug and got up to make myself a salad.
I already went out this morning and my friend wants to go out tonight and do something tomorrow so I'm not completely sitting around the house, fyi.
I also said I didn't want him to feel like he couldn't be here. I wasn't going to talk to him about stuff. He didn't have to hide up in the bedroom all the time. He said it's just uncomfortable.
I'm not doing any good by being in this house. H can't relax to think. He's walking around with his walls constantly up, he's avoiding the house. I'm not going to make any progress in the right direction this way. So what do I do? Leave on vacation again? Kick him out? Get an apartment myself?
How about engaging him in some interesting non-relationship talk the next time he 'makes himself available to talk'?
It seems to me like a great opportunity to do some active listening on some easy subjects and maybe, after awhile, he may begin to feel more comfortable and less guarded.
How about engaging him in some interesting non-relationship talk the next time he 'makes himself available to talk'?
It seems to me like a great opportunity to do some active listening on some easy subjects and maybe, after awhile, he may begin to feel more comfortable and less guarded.
Good idea. Man it's so hard to see things when you're in the sitch yourself. I totally welcome more ideas!
