Standing for my live-in MLC'er/WAS

[Cyrena]

Hi Angel,

You say at one point that you wish you could talk to your H--so you'd know whether he wanted to work on your M, or go to Retrouvaille. From what you've described, your H is nowhere near coming out of his crisis, so it's too soon for Retrouvaille or for R talks. He's still testing you and acting out of emotion, rather than from the conviction that he wants to change. He's still communicating with the OW occasionally and hanging on to reminders of her--he's not yet sure he can let that go. If you were to get him to talk, that might force him to take a position he's not yet sure about.

After my H ended things with his EA partner the first time, he did a lot of the things you describe--engaged with me more, sometimes discussed plans for the future, snuggled when asleep, spent more time as a family--BUT that didn't mean he had made a decision to commit to me, just that sometimes he felt closer to me again. He became more and more confused and undecided (including feeling he HAD to have OW in his life) once he finally started to face his issues.

Good for you for recognizing that you can only change yourself, not your H. And good for you for being able to recognize many ways in which you are being controlling. Until you have eliminated the issues that lie behind your need for control, you will not be able to rebuild a healthy M--so keep digging deep and really confront the fears which are so deep you're afraid even to think about them. Guaranteed, in the light of scrutiny they suddenly won't terrify you so much.

You talk about the difficulty of trusting again--but be aware that's also a control issue, a way of viewing ourselves in the victim position so that we can cast all blame on the person who put us there. Once you are able to forgive, you'll find that wound is healed.

As long as he was in crisis, my H also became very distressed at any hint that I didn't trust him. Meanwhile, he was unable to act/speak in a trustworthy manner. I think it's part of the bifurcated brain of MLC, that they can't bridge the chasm between wanting to see themselves as honourable, as they previously did, and not understanding why they're driven to behave in ways they once would have considered disgraceful.

[angel61]

Cyrena,

You have hit the nail right on the head.

I have forced R talk one too many times in the past, with the result that H would say that with all the hurt going around, it would be best for us to part ways, but the words lacked conviction on his part, and I know that he was just being forced to that position because he knew that he was causing too much pain, and the situation was not comfortable. That is why he still is here with us. I am sure if he really wanted to leave no matter what I say or do, he would go. I know that he is not ready yet, he is not out of the crisis. He does not like R talk either, he always would say it would jut make things worse. He knows he is in crisis, actually he was the first to diagnose himself, and is trying to see if he will eventually get out of it. He himself has asked me to be patient. I think I know the meaning of patience now.

Nobody said this is easy, but I am glad that I am with this group of people who has the insight and the courage to not only look at the other person but at themselves. It would be so easy to blame everything on our spouse, but instead, we look at ourselves and realize that indeed, we play a big role in causing this as well.

Just this morning I was replaying in my mind how I make small comments on everything my H does, and suddenly it hit me why he thinks I attack him and devalue him. I may have thought I was just correcting misconceptions, or think I am helping by giving suggestions and constructive criticism, and I even forget them after I say them, but truly, if I comment on everything he does, trying to make it better, in the long run it would have made him feel that he never did anything right in my eyes.

If I separate myself, my actions, from what he is doing, not weave them together, not make him and me interdependent, remove the feelings of resentment, of unfairness, then yes, I can work on improving myself.As many of you have written on the board, I will make myslef a woman only a fool would leave. And more and more, those words seriously are taking on meaning, and no longer is just lip service. I used to look on them as mere platitudes, thinking to myself "of course, I just have to go back to being what I was when we first met" but now I realize it goes beyond that! As each day passes, more and more my own fog lifts, the fog of resentment and betrayal, and I see myself laid bare before my own eyes.

I feel lucky to be given this chance to change, and have my H still with me. He does not even know it, but he is also changing, becoming more patient, as he sees me struggle through my own journey. He is learning to read me, and I am seeing that I cannot hide, as much as I am learning to read him.

Thank you for sharing your experience with regard to the trust issues. I am gald someone else has experienced this. That is exactly how my H feels. I believe that he does not see himself as untrustworthy, because I think as long as it is not a PA, they do not feel that it is wrong. Your H probably also believed that he was "in love" and love is an honourable emotion. It is true that they cannot bridge the chasm of what they know they are like (an upright, family oriented man) to what they can are doing. And they look around for everything that they can blame, but quickly it comes around - my H accepted the blame a long time ago, and for that I am thankful. But I think there are other issues there; in a sense it is almost like they are testing us, because if we could not trust them with things like making sure the family is taken cared of, there could be no possibility of the M succeeding in the future. I always tell my H that I do trust him; but I know my actions do not support it.

I see that things really happen in a step wise manner; it is happening for him and for me as well. This crisis has its own timeline, and it is different for everybody. And for a couple to go through this, both of you actually have to walk together, yet apart.

My H has gone through this sequenece:

1. Blaming others (me, my parents being with us, our debt)
2. Blaming himself (taking reposnibility for his actions, sparing OW the guilt)
3. Realizing that his fantasy of everything falling into place and of his and OW's life becoming a fairytale was not going to come true
4. Then now I think he is starting to look at the consequences of his actions (especially after what happened to D)

I hope next that he starts to think about choices.

And that is why I am thinking of retrouvaille - I see him turning back to God lately, he has been praying a lot and has been telling me how he realizes that he made vows to God and that he also does not want to break them.

Day by day, things change. the next session is still in August anyway, so I think I have time.

Thanks again....

[Cyrena]

Your description of your H's sequence is interesting and familiar.

1. Blaming others is a necessary first step--both refusing responsibility (after a lifetime of bending to the pressures of others to be responsible) and asserting that things are NOT all right, but in an angry, teenaged, unfocused way.
2. Blaming oneself is to assume the victim position, rather than assuming true responsibility. Refusing to place blame on the OW is yet another way of being the white knight who is rescuing the damsel in distress--so these are both ways of trying to make himself feel good about doing the right thing.
3. The infatuation endorphins wear off, and he sees that his fantasy was only ever a projection.
4. It's good that he is beginning to examine the reality of what he's done.

After this come many more steps: believing that he can be free from pain and conflict, facing his demons, realizing that love is a choice, reconsidering those he has demonized, learning to forgive himself and you, learning to communicate, learning appropriate boundaries (so that he won't feel guilt and codependence again)....

Your H sounds like a good man, and I hope that he continues to progress on his journey. Meanwhile, let him process his stuff while you work on your own. At some point, perhaps, you could mention Retrouvaille to him, but once you've planted the seed, don't bring it up again unless he himself does. I learned to force myself not to criticise, advise, share, etc, with my H, but rather to listen compassionately to him, and found that it drew him slowly towards me.

[angel61]

I see the logic in the steps you have mentioned, and since you said they are familiar, I am assuming you have gone through them as well. I could not find your old threads - do you have a link? I am interested in reading you story, if you don't mind.

You are right, I think right now H still believes that he can do right by us but that he is resigning himself to a life of pain,(martyrdom!) but at the same time, his subconscious is looking for ways to ease the pain, and at the same time avoiding conflict. The sad part about avoiding conflict is that it still means lies and deception. In time he will realize that doing that actually hurts him more. The times he decides to put away his phone, and fully engage with us, I see just how happy he can be again, just like when he was on vacation.

I think it is inevitable that his demons will come around to hound him, no matter how he tries to run, and I see it coming sooner rather than later. He is showing signs of tiring.

Yes, he is a good man, and that is why I am standing by him. My demons sometimes try to convince me that he is not, especially when I get remiss in keeping up my spirituality, and that is whe I backslide.

I have mentioned Retrouvaille to him before and he did want to go, but he had a business trip during the time that there was one in our area. I will perhaps throw out the schedule to him and see if he is interested.

[Albuquerque]

Angel,

I think Cyrena was right on when saying that it's not time for Retrouvaille. That's for mending a relationship. That requires two healthy whole people. That does not exist. Any attempts to mend a marriage with a "broken" person like your H will most likely not work. Your still WAY too focused on your R. Keep the focus on you, as difficult as it may be. And believe me, I know how difficult that is. In order for your H to do the work he needs to do on himself, he needs to have the freedom to do so. He can't do that when he's got the pressure of trying to maintain a marriage on top of that. Give him the time and space he needs and use that time to YOUR advantage.

[Cyrena]

Hi Angel,

I never started threads of my own here--my H was over 3 years into his MLC and one year into his EA when I discovered this place. Although I read desperately to find information, connections with others who had been in my position, and incredible wisdom and insights from contributors here, at the time I was engaged in extensively journalling my progress on paper, at home. I ended up registering here 18 months after my H committed to working on our M, partly to give back for everything I had received here. If there is anything you'd like to ask me, I'm happy to answer your questions.

You say that when your H decides to put away his phone and engage with you, he can be happy. Please understand, unless he "hits bottom," he couldn't just decide to be with his family and be happy. Right now he's like someone with a potentially fatal disease--he might be able to forget about it occasionally and act like his old self, but he needs to deal with the disease and get it scraped out of him before he can truly return to being that wonderful man. You must give him the time to do this--he may well not be ready when Retrouvaille is offering its next courses.

If your H decides to recommit to you, it has to be because he's chosen that--not because he's been guilted, or OW has become unavailable, or he's avoiding conflict. As long as he's with you but has not resolved his personal issues, you don't really have a M.

As Albuquerque suggests, try to take your focus off changes your H needs to make (which is completely out of your hands) and on to yourself. There is a balance in a M, in which both partners need to do the same amount of personal growth, although in different areas, to meet in the middle afterwards. Keep digging into where your growth lies.

[angel61]

I understand that what H is wanting is not a real M. He has finally verbalized it, and confirmed my intuition. The way I see it, there are two things that have made him decide to stay.

a. Our D's condition - her cutting, need for a stable family life
b. His religious beliefes (for a while he seemed to shelf them, but ultimately, he is slowly coming back, praying, telling me that he also cannot just break his vows)

But what do I do? He has told me he has decided to stay but that he still feels the same - in other words, nothing, for me. That he one day may just be able to accept the way things are between us - civil? cordial? friends?. He has not said that we should work on our M.

I did not accept what he said, only listened to it. I did agree though that we have a much better relationship right now. Thoughts of telling him that I wouldn't settle for less, or for just a friendly marriage, did enter my mind, but I am not ready to say those words.

The way I see it, our being together, and trying to work for a workable atmosphere at home may ultimately lead us back to a good R.

But I was just thinking it when I messed up!

The next morning after our talk, H caught me looking through his things. I made excsues, saying it was about the credit cards, our joint acount, yada, yada. He did not buy it. He was livid at me. And for good reason. My self -control had snapped. My demons got me again.

He said that this made him feel that he wanted a legal separation (just for the financial aspect). Because he needs his freedom and space and I could just never let him be. He again brought up his "I hate this life" dialogue. And then he said - don't worry, I will still be married to you for always, but I just don't want you to control my life....

I could have killed myself. The most terrible thing is to feel that you are gaining positives and then do something which at that time makes you feel that it is the straw that may just break this camels' back.

Imagine, we had such a nice mother's day, where he treated me with affection, mussed up my hair in the morning when he greeted me (this always used to be his affectionate manner with me), gave me a nice mothers day gift, took me out to lunch, and we even talked about more personal things like how we expressed our love for people without talking about ourselves.

I felt terrible the whole day. I almost wrote him an email, but good thing a friend at work stopped me. She said that he is just throwing a tantrum, although for good reson, and the bigger I make it, the more it will become real. So i followed her advice.

True enough, in the evening things had settled down. No mention of our fight, and he did seem sad though, but he talked to me, ate out of my plate, and thismorning, was really nice to me again.

So the saga continues.

I hear you all, I do have a lot of work on myself. But at least, not having that sword of D hanging over me makes me feel that I have time and space to work on it. I just have to make sure that my jealousy and feeling of resentment and mistrust at H does not derail me.

[angel61]

I still in this down in the dumps, feeling of impending doom kind of mood. Feeling that I can never do anything right.

Although H talks to me, I feel the difference. We have lost that easy going comfortable conversation that had been continually improving for a month now. I would say we slid back by approximately 2-3 weeks!

[Lorie1964]

I still in this down in the dumps, feeling of impending doom kind of mood. Feeling that I can never do anything right.

Angel,

Don't let this be a self fulfilling prophesy. Look for the positives. What are your goals right now??

Blessings!

[glamgirl]

Angel I snooped too and got caught. Not a good situation to be in. Find peace with the fact you don't need to snoop. God can and will reveal all that you need to know if you ask.

What came to mind was just drop down on your knees and pray for restoration of your marriage and live your life for God no other. Right now it sounds like you are living for your h.

It sounds like your h is home. That is a blessing I think.