Wow Sparks! The bit about falling into the old marriage and everything being the way it was sounds very familiar. It's a very hard question to answer, but I think you handled it very well. I have been asked that question as well and I always say "I don't want the marriage that we had and I would work really hard to make sure that I didn't not make the same mistakes again."
I have started to have the same kinds of doubts. I know that I will not be able to rush back into anything with him either if that is ever an option. I know that there are things about him that will have to change as well before we will ever be able to truly have a happy marriage.
I hope things go well for you in the coming weeks. I'll keep checking back so that I can see your progress!
Me: 31 H: 30 Kids: D9 Together almost 12 years Married almost 5 years EA began: 8/10 Separated: 3/11
All that being said be VERY careful reinitiating intimacy. Do not pursue intimacy even if she moves back in, and wants to work things out. I know it will be hard, but I made that mistake and I'm pretty sure it has set me back. Let her come to you, otherwise she will think that you are forcing yourself on her. (This doesn't just refer to ml, but also to hugs and kisses). Be positive, and be happy, but most importantly let the intimacy and that close contact come naturally.
I think this is fantastic advice. I know that not pushing intimacy would be the correct move for any LBS. I think it is ten fold when it comes to a WAW that has sexuality questions.
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
After this experience I believe that women will gravitate to whoever can meet her needs, be it male or female. Unfortunately society (to include you) are pressuring her to pick between 3 boxes. Straight, lesbian, or bi. Each time she changes boxes it is a huge emotional problem, since she now must rationalize and agonize over this new decision. The more you push her, the more she will be reminded of this and backlash at you for pressuring her to make a choice. (I'm sure you knew all this already). Instead just let it come naturally. I think Michelle said it best when she said (and I paraphrase) that intimacy is built by spending good times together, with little to no negatives. WAW's are blinded by their need to run away from their LBS that they don't see the negatives in their new relationship with OM (or in our case OW). Thus the dreaded fog.... Spend time positively with her, while minimizing bad experiences (like pushing for intimacy), and the intimacy and positive sexual tension will naturally return. (At least thats what I got from MWD's article).
So true. I am finding out that the sexuality spectrum is not as defined or discovered as neatly as I anticipated. I must remind myself that this is a long and very difficult situation for my W to go through right now. I must avoid any pushing behaviors. There will be no chance that I initiate anything sexually until she is ready and then allow her to initiate.
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
[edited by dbmod: reference is not recommended nor allowed]It has been a great help to me to understand which of my nice guy behaviors she has found repulsive, and have contributed to her not being attracted to me.
While reading your posts, I have really looked deep to see if that book would help me. I just don't know. I will fully admit that I have nice guy tendencies. My W's own cousin used to joke about my halo that I wore. I am a very sensitive and caring person. Nice guy? Absolutely yes. However, I don't think these are the behaviors that are pushing my W away. From her history of our M, the times when I strayed away from the nice guy and showed my hard head is what really caused trouble. The main theme we discuss is how she feels unheard or unequal. I would think that me showing no more mr. nice guy would only play right into that. My taking responsibility on many matters without asking for her influence was a huge marriage killer for her.
I don't know. I think it might be a good read to pick up on some good behaviors to practice. I just fear that it would do the opposite that I what my intent would be.
Last edited by dbmod; 09/23/1201:50 AM.
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
In my head, I think, the key is that you're saying she's important (more important than your family, since she and your son are your FAMILY) and you are asking her to trust you 1) that you won't rush it (but she has to make an effort to heal both families), 2) that you know your family and believe they will be civil and try, for your and your son's sake, and 3) that you have her back and will stand up for her. You may have to do some family events solo, talk to people behind the scenes, reintegrate her slowly with more welcoming family first. Think about some of the things you would do, so that you could reassure her. Guys, does that fall into your no more Mr Nice Guy stuff do's or is that don't, in your opinion? She's going to have to step up and put herself out there at some point.
Thanks, AJ. My W really feels right now that a relationship with my family would be impossible... forever. These are her feelings, so I cannot discount them. I have told her that my family will not hold that grudge, but I will not push the matter. I think a lot of it is simply fear to her. I think she is scared to come face to face with my family. I have to be careful not to try and read my W's mind, though. In the end, the reasons don't matter. She may end up sticking to this decision forever, so I have to anticipate that. So her question is valid. How would a relationship like that work?
I think your three trusts are spot on. I do need to continue to show her that she is important to me, and that I will have her back. I think this goes right into the woman's need for security. My W needs to trust that I will always have her back.
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
Wow Sparks! The bit about falling into the old marriage and everything being the way it was sounds very familiar. It's a very hard question to answer, but I think you handled it very well. I have been asked that question as well and I always say "I don't want the marriage that we had and I would work really hard to make sure that I didn't not make the same mistakes again."
I have started to have the same kinds of doubts. I know that I will not be able to rush back into anything with him either if that is ever an option. I know that there are things about him that will have to change as well before we will ever be able to truly have a happy marriage.
I hope things go well for you in the coming weeks. I'll keep checking back so that I can see your progress!
Thank you for stopping by, Confused423.
I do think it is important to put the old marriage to rest. It is broken. In order for my W and I to have a future together, we have to build a new marriage from the ground up. The foundation of this new marriage is critical.
I look back just five years ago on how my W and I built our relationship. I had no idea what I was doing. When we got married, I had no idea what I was doing. I never understood the great care and nourishment it takes to truly love somebody and build a healthy relationship. Maybe my W didn't either, but I cannot speak for her.
I think through reflection of the old marriage, our current positive communication, the growth of us as individuals, and the understanding that our marriage comes first, we will have the right tools to build that stronger foundation that every marriage should have.
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
I kind of anticipated this happening. W took a couple steps back this week. Maybe she felt a little exposed from taking a peak outside her hiding spot.
Started off with talk about our S and the parenting coordinator. W did send an email to one of the names on her list, however, she did not cc me on the email as agreed on. That was a little frustrating, but she agreed to cc me on future correspondence. Therapist asked my W why something that was so important to her is taking so long to develop. She put most of the blame on not being active due to her current situation. She doesn't have fast internet, has no time, no money, no life. She pretty much presented any possible excuse to why this has not progressed except any reason involving me. I could see that coming a mile away.
Therapist then brought up our convo from last week. She asked if my W had any new topics from the relationship list my W was creating to discuss. My W said that she has problems with our convo last week. She feels like the way the convo went, it somehow created false hope. She reiterated that she is simply not there right now. She is not ready to reconcile and work on our relationship. She feels like last week may have inadvertently created an idea that she was. W said that she was trying to bring up examples of problems that were so damaging to her, that I could not find a way to make a relationship work or find a way to create a relationship that we would want.
My therapist suggested that these conversation pieces are not only good to discuss for a possible renewal of our relationship, but they would also be a good step to take to rebuild trust as co-parents. These are things we need to talk about to release her anger and communicate better.
W then decided to bring up the topic of my dismissal of her emotions. She feels like I never interacted well when she showed them. This goes back to my logical thinking. She now believes that she has to present problems to me in some kind of factual box, or I will not understand them. If she presents problems with any emotion, I cannot handle it.
In the past, I would either dismiss her emotions or blame them on something else. This became more clear when she said that last year, I blamed her emotional outbursts on the hormones of her pregnancy and then post-partum. This infuriated her. I validated my W and understood why this would have made her so angry. This was a new experience for both of us, so I felt as though these new peeks in her emotions could have been attributed. We agreed that some could have, but I somehow put all of them in that bucket.
It got to a point, where my W stopped caring and would not present any emotion to me. This was the reason why we began to fight less. I thought it was attributed to the couples therapist we were seeing during her pregnancy. It was not. She had simply checked out. I did not mention the fog of the affair to my wife in our session, but I do wonder how much of this could be attributed towards that. My W began her affair just a few months into her pregnancy and weeks after we began counseling. The time where she checked out is directly related to the beginning of her affair.
I explained to my W that I want our conversations to be real. I don't ever want to dismiss her emotions. I want her to feel safe approaching me regardless of her feelings.
I want to learn how to communicate better with my W at an emotional level. To give an example, I told her how I was often confused what kind of reaction she wanted from me. I do not know when she is wanting compassion and reassurance from me versus a need for a solution or plan. My W thinks that the answer to this is obvious to her, but then she understood that I am not a mind reader. Sometimes my W tells me something that is bothering her and simply wants me to confirm her feelings. Other times, she is seeking a solution to what is bothering her. We agreed that for the time being, it is okay for me to ask her what response she is seeking. I asked my W if me clarifying what response she was looking for would infuriate her. She said that it probably would, but our therapist reminded us that we were probably upset with our bicycle training wheels as well. We just need to work on it for now.
Sorry of this journal entry is not very clear. I had a hard time really describing what my W's emotions really are. I guess it is one of those things that is easy for me to know where she is coming from, but it is hard for me to describe to another person.
The basic message I got from this week is that my W is nowhere near ready in her journey and is now afraid that she showed too much. It is really interesting watching this develop. It is almost if I could anticipate that response this week from her. I hear others saying to be careful and tread slowly when you get something positive. She is now back in her cave. I will continue to show patience while keeping up with my DBing.
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
sparks, ol' buddy. I just wanna say, from where I stand, you are making great progress, whether it feels like it or not.
One thing here that strikes me that I am just now learning from my sitch: don't let anything about your counseling, etc. force you. Make sure you aren't the bad guy here. Plus, you can talk all you want in counseling, but it will be your actions that matter, not your words - this coming from a prolific, self-proclaimed linquist. LOL.
Also, I'll now recommend you take your time at this. Counselors have a certain understood obligation to deliver results. However, I'm under the impression from your postings your WAW isn't ready to make those moves. Keep DBing, but hold your ground. She needs to set the pace here. You are doing a great job of validating, but be careful not to loose yourself in that. You have needs too, she's just unable to provide for them right now. Doesn't mean your needs are any less worthy.
A few posts here have referenced the No More Mr. Nice Guy stuff. If you have ever felt "if I'm good to her, she'll reward me by staying," then there is value in the material. It has really helped me learn that, as a nice guy, I'm not so nice. Nice guys tend to be manipulative, vengeful, whiney, demanding, etc. - certainly not nice. Don't know if it applies to your sitch, but it has helped me as stated in my post tonight.
Best of luck to you, buddy. Keep at it. I think your efforts are working and your results, while seeming insignificant, will eventually add up to something big. Give her the space she needs and keep GAL and DBing. You are closer than you think.
"Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson
M: 45 WAW: 36 T: 17 M: 14 Kids: D9 ILYBNILWY: 6/2010 W left: 2/2011 W back: 2/2012
Sparks Remember divorce is an all or nothing decision. That means that coming back, the inverse, can also be an all or nothing position. Your W sounds a lot like mine in saying that she has to know that things are 100% to know that things are better. Two days ago we had a WAW relapse, because she didn't feel that things were 100% yet, in her emotional state she even stated that she felt that there had been 0% progress since she came back 2 months ago.
Just keep this in mind, for the sake of your M, herself, and you, she needs to arrive at a point where she feels she is at 100%. In order to get there she will keep second guessing herself in order to make sure that she is making the right decision. Think about it this way, the biggest reason she hasn't left yet is because at some point she second guessed herself. (A marriage relapse?) During this moment of doubt she probably saw your DB efforts, and that increased her doubt towards getting the D.
Now she is trying to divorce herself from the idea of getting a divorce (does that make sense?) So she is going through the process all over again. Hopefully your DBing will serve as a rock for her to build on, and help her make the best decision.
Have you read the 5 love languages yet? In my sitch since I am at a relapse, I know that verbal affirmation will probably make things worse. Instead I am going for acts of kindness. She may not be ready for "conventional love" but she may be receptive to other acts of love and caring.
I had a WAW relapse just two days ago, so I know how much they hurt, especially when you are at a high because you think you are making progress. All I have to say, as I am telling myself, is that this is just a relapse. There will be more, they may get worse, but as long as you keep DBing, and things keep getting better they will be just that "temporary relapses".
One last thing, relapses are tests. They are testing your will, your willingness to keep the changes going, and your willing to keep going. She may say some very hurtful things to see if you back down from your changes, to see if she can upset you, or depress you enough, to get you to give up on the changes, and by extension her. This will prove to her that she was right all along and that you NOT relationship material. She wants to bring the monster back, if only to prove to herself that the monster is still alive. It took her a long time to convince herself that you are monster, she is finding it hard to believe that you may not be that monster anymore.
The better things get, the more she will doubt herself, and you. Remember you are turning her world upside down! (When in reality we know that you are finally turning it right side up.) Stay strong brother.... Take every relapse as an opportunity to show her how wrong she is in thinking you are not the best thing that has happened to her.
One thing here that strikes me that I am just now learning from my sitch: don't let anything about your counseling, etc. force you. Make sure you aren't the bad guy here. Plus, you can talk all you want in counseling, but it will be your actions that matter, not your words - this coming from a prolific, self-proclaimed linquist. LOL.
Also, I'll now recommend you take your time at this. Counselors have a certain understood obligation to deliver results. However, I'm under the impression from your postings your WAW isn't ready to make those moves. Keep DBing, but hold your ground. She needs to set the pace here. You are doing a great job of validating, but be careful not to loose yourself in that. You have needs too, she's just unable to provide for them right now. Doesn't mean your needs are any less worthy.
OMW - I definitely want to stay patient and keep the course. There is no reason to rush anything when my W is not ready. There is no D looming. She has another 3-4 months on this apartment lease. I have nothing but time right now, which plays well for me and my actions.
I do find the validation piece interesting. I would love to hear your opinion. Validation is one of my big 180s, as my W never felt heard. By actively listening and validating her words, this is a big improvement on the way that I listen to her. However, she has mentioned in therapy that we don't fight anymore, since I rarely have a disagreement with what she says. She says that I validate her too often.
So where is the happy medium? DR has taught me to avoid conflict and not get sucked in to my W's attempts at them. It has taught me to listen to my W. I do have my own ideas and opinions which I do present from time to time. When my W has an idea, I don't often disagree or try to trump it. I am working really hard to make my W feel heard and that her opinions are good ones. Now I feel like she is pushing back on it and thinks its fake.
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
Just keep this in mind, for the sake of your M, herself, and you, she needs to arrive at a point where she feels she is at 100%. In order to get there she will keep second guessing herself in order to make sure that she is making the right decision. Think about it this way, the biggest reason she hasn't left yet is because at some point she second guessed herself. (A marriage relapse?) During this moment of doubt she probably saw your DB efforts, and that increased her doubt towards getting the D.
Now she is trying to divorce herself from the idea of getting a divorce (does that make sense?) So she is going through the process all over again. Hopefully your DBing will serve as a rock for her to build on, and help her make the best decision.
Thanks for checking in, GB90. I completely agree with you here. My W seemed to have made up her mind on our M before the A even occurred. The A just confirmed her feelings that life outside our M could be better. It also brought to light that her needs might also have to be fulfilled by OW. So by the time I discovered the A, she was already one foot out the door, and I didn't even know it.
My DBing efforts frustrate her, since she is having to second guess herself again. Just when she needs the validation that her leaving was the right move, the opposite hits her. Shoot. I would be very confused if I was in her position right now.
I just need to keep it up. As I told OMW, time and patience is on my side.
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Have you read the 5 love languages yet? In my sitch since I am at a relapse, I know that verbal affirmation will probably make things worse. Instead I am going for acts of kindness. She may not be ready for "conventional love" but she may be receptive to other acts of love and caring.
I picked up the book last week and have read the first chapter. I feel like this sitch has provided me a new library of self help and relationship books. I just wish I had the time to read them all. I am looking forward to it, though.
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
One last thing, relapses are tests. They are testing your will, your willingness to keep the changes going, and your willing to keep going. She may say some very hurtful things to see if you back down from your changes, to see if she can upset you, or depress you enough, to get you to give up on the changes, and by extension her. This will prove to her that she was right all along and that you NOT relationship material. She wants to bring the monster back, if only to prove to herself that the monster is still alive. It took her a long time to convince herself that you are monster, she is finding it hard to believe that you may not be that monster anymore.
The better things get, the more she will doubt herself, and you. Remember you are turning her world upside down! (When in reality we know that you are finally turning it right side up.) Stay strong brother.... Take every relapse as an opportunity to show her how wrong she is in thinking you are not the best thing that has happened to her.
So true. Gotta stay focused. Thanks for your words of encouragement!
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
