Young at heart Sir you are a true inspiration. Thank you for your kinda words. It's a little crazy but sometimes I do need a play by play breakdown of my actions. In my profesion after action reviews are a way of life. So any feed back positive or negative is appreciated. Will post more soon. You might be happy to know that I have started being active on the NMMNG boards. Those guys are brutally honest, and have made me realize and accept a lot of things about myself. You can look for me under the same screenname. My thread is under the marriage issues folder. I'm sure you will find it amusing.
As always thanks for the advice and please post more often.
I want you to know that there are people out there that care for you and want to encourage you in trying to save your marriage. That is pretty much what MWD and this website is all about. MWD's books & website are incredible in their commitment to marriages and trying to make them work.
Your finding another forum to get advice from is good. If they are brutal, just remember that you really are doing impressively well in figuring things out. You just (as you recognize) need a little mentoring in the form of an after action review. Keep telling yourself that you deserve a good loving relationship and visualize a successful marriage and the happiness that it will bring you.
Ultimately, whether your marriage fails or succeeds will be up to your wife and her willingess to change. That is nothing you can force to happen. It will happen or not because of your wife. What you can do is change you and show her that change is possible and you can reinforce through positive actions changes she makes.....you can not and should not try to change her by force.
My next to last bit of advice is to get the book the Five Languages of Love by Chapman. Read it and then reread it and then reread it. Figure out your langagues of love and those of your wife. Provide you wife with unconditional love (it took my wife about 5 months of unconditional love on my part before she reciprocated). Unconditional love is not a Nice Guy bargining for love. It is there, constant and about giving (not getting).
Understand that your wife will challenge you. Understand that your wife will test boundaries. Understand that you wife will pick fights and that you will need to take a deep breath and avoid taking her bait. You and she will backslide on some the improvements you make. Understand that it will take longer than you expect to heal your relationship. Seek help from others and be open to their help and love.
Finally, I want to share something I learned from MWD. The HD partner in an SSM needs to understand that their LD spouse really doesn't want sex as much as they do. The HD partner needs to understand that sometimes the LD partner wants to have sex as a gift of love to the HD partner. That means that there will be times when your wife wants to ML with you to "make" love and give you the gift of her love, even though she isn't horny. At those times you need to understand that your wife is expressing her love for you and you need to accept her love joyfully even if you know she isn't sexually excited. The LD partner is often as ashamed of the lack of sex as the HD partner. Be supportive of your wife, but don't be a "Nice Guy."
Good luck to you. I wish you the best.
I will sign off as a former "Nice Guy," who now has a strong marriage to the woman he loves.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Sigh there was a relapse Pretty demoralized will post later
And you are surprised? It will be a roller coaster for quite a while. You need to find strength within yourself.
Remember to tell yourself that you are a good person who deserves to be loved by a woman who cares about you and treats you well. Visualize what a good marriage means to you, then make it happen. Remember that you can only change yourself.
Originally Posted By: Young at Heart
...Understand that your wife will challenge you.
...Understand that your wife will test boundaries.
...Understand that you wife will pick fights and that you will need to take a deep breath and avoid taking her bait.
...You and she will backslide on some the improvements you make.
...Understand that it will take longer than you expect to heal your relationship.
...Seek help from others and be open to their help and love.
...Good luck to you. I wish you the best.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
You do all you can to prepare yourself, yet it hurts everytime. The higher you go, the more it hurts, because it does feel like all the work was for nothing. I will post the details soon. For now I posted them on the NMMNG forums, will copy and paste them here soon. I think things may have stabilized, but I won't lie I want the high I was feeling a few days ago back.
....You do all you can to prepare yourself, yet it hurts everytime. The higher you go, the more it hurts, because it does feel like all the work was for nothing. I will post the details soon. For now I posted them on the NMMNG forums, will copy and paste them here soon. I think things may have stabilized, but I won't lie I want the high I was feeling a few days ago back.
OK, I went over there and read your post and some of the comments.
I am not sure I would give the same advice. I will share an episode of what happened in my marriage and its repair, before I give you some thoughts and advice.
Once on a weekend morning during a business trip that my wife came along on, I gave my wife a foot massage for 40 minutes. We were in bed in a motel and I was in my underwear on the bed making her feel good and loved. When the massage was over, my wife ran from the bedroom, locked herself in, then took a long shower.
You said in your post that your wife said she wanted you, that after she accidently hit you with a thrown water bottle that was aimed at your hands that she ran her breasts against your face to make you feel better. Then you say when you place your hands on her hips that she amost accused you of rape. I don't think she was messing with you, I think she was internally confused.
Let me tell you what I learned later during a sex therapist session about the foot massage that I gave my wife. What I learned later was that my wife had gotten so aroused that she was starting to want to have sex with me, but that scared her. She was still too angry with me to even consider having sex with me. So she did the only reasonable thing she could think of and ran. Had I made a big deal about it at the time I would have just made things worse. I just shook my head, crawled under the covers and read until she was out of the shower and didn't say a thing.
I figured that she was just testing me again and trying to do things to pick a fight. Your wife is going to do weird things while she is trying to figure herself out. Be a strong resolute beacon of masculinity that she can lean on, while she figures herself out.
So, let me summarize. What you took for your wife acting crazy and accusing you of "rape" was probably her panicing over her being aroused and wanting to have sex with you. The weird news is as much as you may want to have sex with your wife, the two of you are probably not yet ready for that; but you are making real progress. Don't push.
Keep up the good work of getting a life. It is showing results. Make sure that you are getting you "needs" met (and not you wants). At this point sex is not yet a "need"....it will be in the future, but not now. (I know it seems like a need, but trust me it isn't. If it is a need, take care of yourself.)
You wife is confused about her emotions and what she wants. My suggestion is that this is a perfect time for the two of you to try counseling. She has deep questions about her sexuality that she really needs to talk through with someone. A sex therapist could help the two of you a lot at this point, in my opinion. Ultimately, a sex therapist could negotiate the two of you into making love on a regular basis and resolving many of your issues. Find a good one, check references and don't settle for one that isn't going to help the two of you.
As to the threesome comment of yours to your wife! Is the strong masculine GAL person you want to become; the one who says he doesn't want an open marriage? That comment was a mistake and you know it, which is good.
Don't make comments or challenges that you really aren't willing to follow up on. You are trying to become an integrated man, which means a man of integrity, a man of substance and one who is a constant in your wife's life.
Your wife is likely to challenge you on something like this in the future. If she does, don't take the bait, look at her tell her you love her, that you want to honor your marriage to her and that you can't be part of such a thing. Tell her that saving your marriage is important to you, that is something you are committed to, because you are committed to having her in your life and that such a thing would not help rebuild your marriage.
Now for some pointed after action reviews.
You are begining to understand that one of your wife's languages of love is "acts of service" such as making you breakfast or coffee in the morning. Have you thanked her after she has done this and said that you appreciate how much she loves you? Statements of love should be acknowledged! Getting you a water bottle (that seems to have worked a couple of times) is an act of service statement of love. Did you thank her and acknowledge her action?
Think about a TV-sitcom where a couple are kissing and one of them say to the other "I love you" and the other person just smiles, but says nothing. The other person is suppose to say "I love you" back or something is wrong. When your wife in her language of love says I love you by an act of service, what have you done and what has been the result?
What similar kinds of "acts of service" have you done for your wife that make her feel loved. Have you told her that she is special to you and that you want to cook her a great meal, where all she has to do is sit back and relax?
My wife tells me she loves me having a hot home cooked dinner ready when I get home. Guess what I am doing for Mother's Day.
I am going to BBQ a great early Sunday dinner for my wife. I am getting the steaks, I am going to shop for and cook the veggies, make the salad, the dessert and when it is all over clean things up so that she feels pampered and loved. And she will feel loved, because I am communicating to her in "her" language of love, the one she uses to tell me she loves me. Personally, it would mean more to me (and a lot less to her) to tell her I love her, how wonderful she is, and hold her close to me, but that is not what I am going to do.
It took my a long time to understand what Chapman really was talking about in the Five Languages of Love book, but once I did, I was able to do multiple things each day that made my wife feel loved. I made sure it was "unconditional love" with nothing expected in return and that it was present each day. After about 5 months it made a real difference.
So what kinds of acts of service are you going to do for her to make her feel loved? Try some and see which work. See which ones light up her face and cause her to let you know that she feels loved. The ones that work best, incorporate into a daily/weekly ritual where she feels she is appreciated.
Things will take time, it will be a roller coaster. Find strength within you to carry you through. Work on becoming a stronger more integrated man.
Figure out how to make her feel loved in an unconditional way.
Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I read a few more posts over at [edited by dbmod: reference is not recommended nor allowed]. I have to say that I think some of them are confusing dominance and submission with becoming a whole, integrated man.
My view of loosing my "nice guy" attributes was to become a strong, masculine person who took care of my needs and those of my family. It was not a power struggle to control my wife or make her do things.
At times my wife accused me of trying to force her to do things and engaging in a power struggle to dominate her, but ultimately she knew it wasn't true. I and our therapist were leaving the choices regarding change up to her, with her having to live with the consequences of change or no change. That scared her. The therapist was very good at making her understand that what was going to happen (divorce or rebuilding the marriage) or not happen would because of what my wife did or didn't do.
I would caution you to be very careful with some of the advice you are getting and really think through what Glover (and all the other "Men's authors) are trying to tell you. This is based on my experience with a marriage in crisis.
Again, good luck.
Last edited by dbmod; 09/23/1201:51 AM.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Young at Heart Yeah I post over there, because those guys are good at being brutally honest, they sure don't mince their words. I try to get a reality check over there, and a second opinion. On the other hand, there advice is sometimes too heavy handed, like you said I don't want to be taken advantage of, but I don't want to be an outright jerk. There is a difference between standing for yourself and being a jerk. In my continued quest to find a copy of the the 5LL's I searched for an ebook, version, and then went to my library. Where I got the condensed version, will do for now. After yesterday's hoopla, and realizing I had to do something besides pressure her, and threaten her, I decided to do something in one of her love languages. One of my GAL activities has been to go out with one of my friends to drink coffee and just philosophize. At one point she mentioned that she wanted coffee, and even gave me her typical order. I forget for the last two days to do it. I decided to not come home today without the coffee, so after finishing my workout I went to Starbucks for the second time and got her, the usual, making sure it was to her exact standards. When I got back home in the morning, she was half asleep, and the first thing greeting her was a warm cup of coffee just like she likes it.
Luckily today I didn't have work, and felt very upset. All I wanted to do was sleep. She let me take a nap, but kept trying to make me feel better, she made me a smoothie, acted cute around me, and even made me Ramen. (When she makes Ramen it's like when your mother makes mashed potatoes from scratch for thanksgiving, she pulls all the stops, to make it delicious.) Whatever physical intimacy we were building, is missing, and at one point she made a comment about being repulsed by male organs. These things kinda hurt, but I'm trying to take all the care taking and acts of kindness on her part as a good sign. She may talk like a WAW, but it feels like she is acting like a loving W. I don't know...
I have also tried having good conversations with her, asked her about different things and just tried to listen. I have to admit we really don't talk about "deep" stuff anymore.
Almost felt like giving up, after what had happened, and the posts over at NMMNG. Your advice has re-energized me. Thank You.
I much prefer the model of integration you advocate. Being integrated also means being a loving, and devoted husband. I tried to be that but let the negative ng tendencies like constant need for approval, stealth contracts, and hidden resentment ruin that for me. There is nothing I want more right now that for her to curl up to me like she did 2 days ago, but I have to be patient, do acts of kindness and listen. First win her attention, then her heart, then intimacy, them ml.
....There is a difference between standing for yourself and being a jerk. In my continued quest to find a copy of the the 5LL's I searched for an ebook, version, and then went to my library. Where I got the condensed version, will do for now.
....I decided to do something in one of her love languages....I went to Starbucks for the second time and got her, the usual, making sure it was to her exact standards. When I got back home in the morning, she was half asleep, and the first thing greeting her was a warm cup of coffee just like she likes it.
...She let me take a nap, but kept trying to make me feel better, she made me a smoothie, acted cute around me, and even made me Ramen. (When she makes Ramen it's like when your mother makes mashed potatoes from scratch for thanksgiving, she pulls all the stops, to make it delicious.)
...Whatever physical intimacy we were building, is missing, and at one point she made a comment about being repulsed by male organs. These things kinda hurt, but I'm trying to take all the care taking and acts of kindness on her part as a good sign. She may talk like a WAW, but it feels like she is acting like a loving W. I don't know...
...Being integrated also means being a loving, and devoted husband. I tried to be that but let the negative ng tendencies like constant need for approval, stealth contracts, and hidden resentment ruin that for me.
....but I have to be patient, do acts of kindness and listen. First win her attention, then her heart, then intimacy, them ml.
If you would listen to the best of yourself, you probably know exactly what to do. You need to just work on yourself so that the "best of you" is that part speaks and acts and the other parts of you are under control.
A few thoughts. Really figure out what Chapman is saying in the 5LL. It is powerful stuff.
Then once you have read his book and understand it, get the cheesey book Being the Strong Man Women Want, by Elliot Katz. The book at times is a joke, but it also contains several thousand years of wisdom on how a man should act as a husband. Corny, un-PC, yes, but enlightening and inspirational. Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the book is the introduction by Dr. Glover (author of NMMNG) who praises what the Katz is trying to teach men. It is about being an integrated man/husband.
Remember that you want to pay close attension to your wife's actions and not her words. ACTIONS NOT WORDS! As you have observed her actions indicate she wants to be a loving wife. Also expect her to challenge you and do weird things as she is trying to figure this out as well, but probably doesn't have the support group you have gotten for yourself to make sense of things. She is lacking mentors, which is why now would be a good time for the two of you to see a sex therapist.
While she may say she is repulsed at your male organs, don't let that get to you. It's just words from someone who is confused about themself. Think of the two of you just starting dating. It may take a while for her to become comfortable with you and all aspects of your body, which is why sex at this point isn't a good idea. In Schnarch's book the Passionate Marriage he has an interesting discussion on sex and how revolting it must seem until you have tried it and stretched your image of yourself and who you are and what you are comfortable doing. As he says, how can stiking you tongue in someone's mouth and exchanging spit be anything but disgusting...but after you have done it a while, French kissing is kind of nice. How can getting naked, assuming bizzare body positions and then lay together having cooled body fluids leaking all over you seem pleasant....but after a while.... The next time she says something about sex or your body that feels hurtful, think of Dr. Schnarch and just smile at her and tell her that you love her, don't get upset.
Make sure that you make your wife feel loved. Make sure that you thank her when she makes you Ramen, pancakes, or brings you a water bottle. Tell her at these times that you love her and appreciate her taking care of you. Being appreciated for what we do is a powerful and basic human emotion. Being loved by someone is a necessary human emotion and critical for our individual happiness (see Sue Johnson's book Hold Me Tight, if you want to learn more).
When you bring her coffee in the morning or do other acts of service for her to make her feel loved. Say words to her that also let her know that she is special to you and that you love her. Verbally reinforce your "action" messages of love with words.
You really do know what you need to know, but you just need to be patient, persistent, loving, grow yourself (through NMMNG GAL and reading), and not try to force or pressure wife into change she is not ready for.
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....but I have to be patient, do acts of kindness and listen. First win her attention, then her heart, then intimacy, them ml.
Good luck and remember visualization, and tell yourself words of affirmation. Tell yourself that you are responsible for your happiness and work on making yourself happy in ethical and moral ways. Ultimately, you will find happiness.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
