25yrs, cat Well some interesting things happened last night. While at dinner, we were having a good time when she mentioned something about pregnancy. I said "don't even joke about that" She said "well you' don't have to worry it has been over 3 months" To which I replied: "no 1.5" She then said "no 3", I said "trust me 1.5". she then looks at me gets real angry, and said "oh so you HAVE been messing around, I told you, you could, but I didn't want you telling me if you did!" I looked at her shocked and said "what?! no I haven't! I swear." She just said that it didn't matter because that was the type of marriage we had, and she didn't want to discuss it. I found it ridiculous that she would think such a thing and started laughing. She got even more upset, and said: I can't believe you think I did, after all I have done, and how much you know it's not what I want. She tells me she doesn't want to talk about it. So I drop it. We finish dinner drive home, we are still trying to have a good night by going to the movies. Right before we leave I decide to grow a pair and tell her. "We ML when you got back that was exactly 1.5 months ago, because you were set to start that new job a week before on the 17th. I haven't done anything, and will not!" We get in the car, she said "I don't care, I don't want to talk about it". (It's amazing how something she claims to want so badly, bothers her so much). We start driving towards the theater, she starts saying "if this is bothering you so much what's the point" to which I respond "it is bothering, I want it to stop." She says then what's the point lets just get divorced. "What do you mean what's the point, do you really want other people that badly?" She says "no I just don't want you". "I haven't done anything, but don't worry I will take care of it this week" I just try to tell to myself, "this is just the anger, she was all over me yesterday, this is just more emotional terrorism, dont let her emotionally blackmail you". Then I felt bad because I hadn't called my mother yet, (she just had surgery yesterday) I tell her I can't go to the movies. I need to call my mom. I talked with my mom for about 20 minutes. Afterwards my W could tell I was upset, and immediately started reaching out to me. She asks if there is anything she could do. I tell her I want this and grab her and sit her on my lap. (I shocked myself I haven't been able to be this assertive in months.) Long story short we went into a long conversation where I told her about how I had read NMMNG, and how it had opened my eyes. I told her about my toxic shame, my need for approval, my need for stealth contracts, and how I resented when she didn't appreciate my efforts, which led to more clinginess on my part. I told her I understood that she didn;t think me sexy because I was soo damn needy. I also told her how it had made me so desperate for her approval that I was willing to take her treating me badly. I told her I wanted it to stop. She asked for specific examples, and I really wanted to get to the hot burning questions concerning her lack of respect for our M. I instead decided to mention minor incidents in which I accepted bad treatment. (I chickened out I know...) It seems we made a lot of progress but she cut it short, because I had promised her ice cream, and they were closing. For the sake of continuing a smooth conversation without resentments I agreed. We spent the rest of the night talking and having a good time, but didn't veer towards the important stuff.
Now here is where I need advice. I have been trying to tackle issues of respect as they arise. In other words wait for her to do or say something disrespectul, hold my ground, and show her I won't be bullied. After reading and re-reading both your comments I can tell both of you want me to take a more direct approach. I'll be honest....I am clueless and don't know how. I need some suggestions, maybe even step by step directions. Do you guys want a direct confrontation? If so how? when? where? What should I say or do. I think i finally get what you guys want me to do, I just don't know how. I feel like I almost need someone to hold me by the hand. It's sad I know.
Now here is where I need advice. I have been trying to tackle issues of respect as they arise. In other words wait for her to do or say something disrespectul, hold my ground, and show her I won't be bullied. After reading and re-reading both your comments I can tell both of you want me to take a more direct approach. I'll be honest....I am clueless and don't know how. I need some suggestions, maybe even step by step directions. Do you guys want a direct confrontation? If so how? when? where? What should I say or do. I think i finally get what you guys want me to do, I just don't know how. I feel like I almost need someone to hold me by the hand. It's sad I know.
Oh Good Lord...
I can't speak for 25 but I am in NO WAY suggesting a direct confrontation...
I am suggesting that women need to have respect for men, and your W does not have respect for you...
However, and here is the tricky part...
In order for her to respect you, YOU have to respect YOURSELF.
You have to love yourself and like yourself before anyone else can reflect that back to you.
You have to find within you what is broken, and fix that before things can begin to change.
A first step, is actually exactly what you are doing...
Stopping the poor treatment...
However, if you don't know why you allowed it in the first place, and deal with those things, you will end up falling back into old patterns.
Please don't have an all out confrontation with your W unless you want to start WWIII.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Cat... Good, I didn't think a direct confrontation was the right thing to do.
I have been doing the exercises in NMMNG and it has really opened up my eyes. Sometimes I get mad at her for the way things have been, but realize now that most of it has been based on my own insecurities.
I think the best thing that has happened to me is knowing that I can do everything in the world and still lose her. (By lose her I also mean that she goes through and finds a PA and EA). This realization has helped me to stand up, and tell her what I feel, and what I need from her. Just earlier today she physically hurt me while playing, I told her that we can play fight all she wants, but to be careful she doesn't hurt me, once she doesn't get her way. She got quiet, and then a few minutes went into our bedroom and is now sleeping there. Not sure if she is mad, don't really care. I'm sure she'll get over it.
I respect myself in all aspects, except when it has come to my W. That has been my biggest weakness. I realized months ago when I started DBing that I had to be happy regardless of the outcome. Reading NMMNG lately has opened my eyes and showed me that I am this spineless weak, yet conniving bastard, because I did not love myself. I let my W do all this because I was afraid of losing her, and because I have been so desperate for her approval. I hope that is no more.
Oh btw I played cards for 4 hours and came in 3rd today!!!! This is a big deal considering I have been only playing for a month, and we have some of the best players in the state. Oh yeah.....
Cat... Good, I didn't think a direct confrontation was the right thing to do. No it's not, unless it happens b/c of her and then I'd say just don't "chicken out" about the important things if she asks for examples. But I agree with Cat, don't go looking for a confrontation. It seems a little hard to avoid them, though. She pushes your buttons.
I have been doing the exercises in NMMNG and it has really opened up my eyes. Sometimes I get mad at her for the way things have been, but realize now that most of it has been based on my own insecurities.
If that's true, then that is work only you can do. And you have to.
I think the best thing that has happened to me is knowing that I can do everything in the world and still lose her. (By lose her I also mean that she goes through and finds a PA and EA). This realization has helped me to stand up, and tell her what I feel, and what I need from her. Just earlier today she physically hurt me while playing, I told her that we can play fight all she wants, but to be careful she doesn't hurt me, once she doesn't get her way. She got quiet, and then a few minutes went into our bedroom and is now sleeping there. Not sure if she is mad, don't really care. I'm sure she'll get over it.
I'm not sure I get this. Seems to me a lot of your behavior is fear driven and your fear is her leaving or having a PA. Am I missing something?
I respect myself in all aspects, except when it has come to my W. That has been my biggest weakness.
Yes it is your biggest weakness and it's the opposite of what it will take to make it work. That's what confuses me. You KNOW she needs direction and strength and confidence from you, but you "show her your cards" all the time. I am not into games exactly, but I think a little mystery and confidence from you is mandatory. Plus, as CAT said, what is up with the lack of self respect you have in this R? You have to believe you are a great catch so that only a fool would leave you or treat you in a way that may cause you to leave. Assuming you do the work to get there, it will show. But it has to be real. The paradox is that you will be more attractive to her when you realize you'd be fine without her.
I realized months ago when I started DBing that I had to be happy regardless of the outcome. YES...see above...
Reading NMMNG lately has opened my eyes and showed me that I am this spineless weak, yet conniving bastard, because I did not love myself. I let my W do all this because I was afraid of losing her, and because I have been so desperate for her approval. I hope that is no more.
Lots of fear driving you into walls over and over again...don't let her push your buttons so much. A confident man is not needy for approval or terrified of abandonment. A confident (and attractive!!) man knows that smart good women would want to be with him and if a woman doesn't want to be with such a great catch, that's her loss.
Oh btw I played cards for 4 hours and came in 3rd today!!!! This is a big deal considering I have been only playing for a month, and we have some of the best players in the state. Oh yeah.....
good for you.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
PS I don't understand what your fight was all about. She made a comment about how long it had been since you two ML? And you had the right date and she didn't? But she created a dispute about sex, stemming from HER making so many conditions before being able to have sex, that you have not had it for 1.5-3 months? And she accused YOU of cheating?
Ironically, women who refuse their h's often are paranoid about their h's cheating.
But to me, and I am NOT saying I'm right, but to me, a man/woman who cuts their spouse off of marital relations is asking for problems. I find it unfair of them to complain about an affair, when they deny their partner the one thing only a marriage is supposed to provide. Married people need some form of physical intimacy. Maybe it's only hugging when a partner is injured or too pregnant, post partum, for example. But the desire has to be expressed in some way. Or there's trouble brewing.
For instance, a few years back there was a woman here who had not slept with her h for 6 years, due to her own inner issues. She loved her h but had serious intimacy issues. She was crushed and shocked when he left her for OW. At first it was so hard for her to understand but finally she realized that in a way she had pushed her h into the OW"s arms. She had set him up and she "got it." Then she was filled with remorse b/c her h had tried telling her in so many ways. Finally she said the surprise was how long it had taken him to have an A. She learned a lot, the hard way.
Just food for thought. Not saying that will happen to you but I do find it odd how jealous she gets about your behavior when it is her stopping the intimacy. Am I missing something? Seriously, maybe I am.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25yrs I wrote a response but it didn't post so here I go again.
I agree with your assesment. It is very frustrating, and very hard to understand how such a HD person like her rejects me, yet at the same time is insanely jealous. She always talks about the "spark" being gone, and about how she no longer feels attracted, and how she has to be in the mood. Yet every time I try to get here there she just get angry. It's like she has to feel overwhelmingly in the mood to do it, otherwise it is not worth it. If I try to get her in the mood, then she is really not in the mood, and I am a jerk for it. Confusing huh...
The only insight I have into it comes from NMMNG.
1. I am (or was) afraid of her leaving.
2. It makes me be willing to have her walk all over me.
3. This makes me look weak.
4. Weak is unattractive.
5. She doesn't feel attracted to me, thus does not want sex.
6. I freak out and start trying to win her over, through being nice.
7. She resents me even more for it, decides I only do things when I want something.
8. I start resenting the fact that she does not appreciate my efforts, and lash out at her by being passive agressive, by trying to guilt her, or becoming distant.
9. This confirms to her that all I want is sex, and not to be nice to her...
10. She clams up even more, I try even harder.... it becomes a vicious cycle.
In the case that I do get her into bed....
1. Something happens that puts her overwhelmingly in the mood, since it doesnt happen naturally (ie alcohol)
2. She approaches me.... I enthusiastically accept.
3. I worry about "doing my best" the end result is actually very mechanical, not spontaneous, no magic, or crazy energy. Just me worried about being "good enough"
4. It is reinforced to her that while good, there was no magic.
5. She clams up even more.
6. Feels that I pulled a fast one on her to get some
7. I as an idiot try to replicate the circumstances to get more "bad sex" she sees through this. Clams up even more....
According to NMMNG what I can do
1. Stop pursuing ml
2. Stop doing nice things, only do what is necessary (its not about being a jerk, but more about no longer doing things expecting to get something in return, pathological nice guys are notorious for this, to include me)
3. Do not hide your emotions, especially when you disagree. This just leads to resentment and more passive agressiveness.
4. Stand your ground and don't be so quick to give in. Show some strength.
5. Get your validation from other male friends not her (a version of GAL)
6. Do manly things you, and by extension her can be proud about. (Even more GAL)
This is what I inferred from the book, it has given me a road map. We are actually not in the best grounds, right now. I am doing my best not to give in and to go pursue her.
it reminds me of the sitch a friend of ours was in, he had high drive and his w didn't, although when they were dating her drive seemed a lot higher.
Anyhow, she didn't feel "in the mood" if he didn't try to romance her and then when he tried to romance her she felt "manipulated"...and so, either way he got to be wrong...
They ended up divorced. It was sad but not surprising. I feel for you. But as you've heard here a hundred times, you can only control you. Take that sentence in, b/c once you really accept that you are only in charge of your life, then you'll begin to make progress.
But don't surrender your happiness and life to someone else. Be the author of your life, (imagine your life is a novel. Don't let someone else write the chapter or the rest of the book of your life. YOU write it. Make it go the way you want it to. )
And no, this doesn't mean "kick her to the curb." Just thinking you have a lot of work!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
....We usually fight over her indecision for dinner, I always say whatever she wants, and she waffles then gets angry at me for giving her the choice. (Typical NGS)
....Last night quickly picked the restaurant, while picking the appetizers she kept trying to change my mind, and I held my ground, she even tried saying that she really wanted another one to see if I would bow down, and I said "no I want this one, if you would like another one you can get it separetely." This is one of those weird fights we'd always have, it was very nice to take charge.
a few thoughts (for what they may be worth)
Reformed Nice Guys are not into a power struggle or trying to dominate their wife for no reason. You have said that you love her and want the best for her. I believe you. Your suggestion that she could get a different appetizer was a good way to handle things. Well done.
An even better way to have handled things; would have been for you to have carefully choosen your appetizer for health (or other) reasons that were real. This means that if you had choosen one because if was high protein and you wanted to boost the protein in your meal prior to a hard triathalon work out the next day, that would have been an excellant reason and why you weren't going to eat something else. It would have told her that you are really serious about this exercise program and given her an understandable reason for what you wanted. Of course if you had said that, you better not have a sugary cocktail or dessert with your dinner or an all carb main dish.
If you fight over dinner or appetizers, figure out what you need (be it fiber, carbs, protein, low-cal, raw vegtables, whatever) and then share with her what it is that you feel you need, give her a suggestion or two on what you think would be a good approach and ask her if she has an alternate that can meet your needs.
An integrated man seeks and gets input from his wife. If she can't agree then your solution of I am getting this because..... and you can get anything you want, is a good way to go. Getting a life makes sure that your needs (not wants) and those of your family are being met.
Also, it sounds like your wife's eating habits are a bit unusual, so if you have listened closely to her and found out if she is focused on low calories, but high fiber, with an ocassional sluge and you can work that into your suggestion....all the better, because it shows that you are listening to her and trying to help incorpate what she has told you into your life as well.
Again, your wife will test you to see what this change (NMMNG) in you is all about and if you really are changing or not.
My suggestion would be to have really good reasons for the things you feel you need that you wife is going to challenge you on. If you do, then articulate them. Once she sees that it is not an arbitrary power struggle, she will likely view things a lot differently, especially if you are committed to your NMMNG goals and change.
Good luck and remember that change (both yours and that of your wife) will take a lot more time than you expect.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
