From small beginnings come great things

[2stepboogie]

Country:

I did not ignore u man it's almost 2 but I will answer your question tomorrow.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear 2step,

She IS a confusing woman. She's not behaving consistently, or with clarity. I will give you that. You are where so many of us have been, in internal limbo.

So she's not clear with you and I would bet A LOT of money that is for the simple reason she is not clear in her head/heart either! She isn't playing games. She is simply very confused herself. I KNOW she should have been a whole lot clearer for someone who frickin filed for divorce.

So she's giving mixed signals and Here's my real question and bare with me...So what? (btw, To get and highlight the colors, go up to the bars where the bold and italics tools are, and to the right you will see a colorful pyramid (or is it a capital A?? I don't know!) and use that.

OKAY so my "so what?" means, what's different in your approach to life if your ex w wants back in or doesn't, or might later, etc?

See, I'm thinking your actions are the same regardless of what she thinks/wants/plans, etc. The whole GAL and 180s for you, etc.

I think what you are saying is that It's the internal process you are struggling with, correct? It's like You are wondering what your new mantra or theme song should be now, is it "Kiss it Goodbye" , "Re-United", or "Forget You!"

I get that. Here's what I did when I was in the same sitch as you are. Remember that while my h was gone out of the house for 2 years, he never said he wanted a divorce, but he lived in the one place I said I could not live again. His actions were 180' from his words. He said he wanted us to join him, even when he knew the first year we literally could not. (He did many visits home fyi).

When I filed for a sep it was to protect assets, b/c I honestly thought he'd sell the house to invest in his "adventure" up North where his heroes lived and worked...I gave us a 10% chance of remaining married.

How'd I do that? I decided on some basics about my life and the kids. Like you, I made my d's the priority.) Our son (now 24) was off at college but I still had 2 d's at home, one in high school.

In my MC sessions, I determined that SHE would Not have to move while in high school. As a former military family that moved OFTEN, our promise to our children was always that they'd get at least 3 years of high school in one place as I had growing up.
So That meant we were going to live in the same area for those 2 years and I was cool with that type of relative stability. That's a start.

Next I looked at my career & I did NOT work more at my job b/c my counselor said the "last thing your kids need is another absent parent" and that made sense. It went against my survival instincts financially, but it helped me stay focussed on the girls. So there's a plan that remained in place. Working and living in the same place for at least 2 years.

It's true that The R my h had with the d's suffered and he is still working on rebuilding it. That is his responsibility, not mine. I am supportive and encouraging and I didn't bad mouth him much, considering. Just stay out of their way and move forward as best you can about your d feeling abandoned. Stress that SHE had nothing to do with it and ask your ex if she could confirm and validate that with D.

At one point, I chose to date, but very discreetly. My kids never knew. I would have had to be much more serious with a man before I'd intro him to my kids as per my MC's views as well.

My MC told me the time to introduce them to new people is when you feel 3/4 sure you want a real R with the new person and even then, the child should have reasonable veto power. (SIDENOTE, I'm a L. I recall that I had clients who would tell me they were dating "a great guy" but that "he doesn't get along with the kids" and I always interrupted them then to ask, "how is he great if he doesn't get along with your kids?" They were asking for trouble. I did not get how they could over look that trait in someone. ANYHOW...)

I learned a lot about my life by meeting OMs. Mostly good news about my h, comparatively. Most of my dates confirmed for me that my h was a good match for me (unless he stayed in MLC). He was intelligent, educated, unthreatened by my being a professional, and he got my sense of humor. Also he took good care of his body.

I also learned that dating was not terrifying or an unsuccessful venture for me. I felt a sense of empowerment by NOT feeling trapped alone. I could date if I wanted to but for the most part, I wanted my h back. So even though I had fun, And it was SO good to know I would not be alone the rest of my life if I didn't want to be, I could also honestly say my h was a good catch, as he WAS before the MLC.

So 2step, Can you (eventually) see dating new women?
Can you also see your ex w as a potential woman to date? I know she's far away and all, but in theory, can you imagine her as a "pen pal plus", who MIGHT live near you someday...

If you were to be in a R with a new woman & you came to care for each other, would that be so confusing that it is a bad or a good thing, in your eyes?

Can you progress in your growth without knowing the future? As you must realize, we all have to do so to an extent.

But can you live your life as if you are single, & she's not likely to come back, but she's someone from your past who you once cared deeply for? Shut the door, don't keep looking back at it, but don't lock it either.

I know it's hard to swim to the other shore if you keep turning over your shoulder to look back at the beach you left. You feel you won't make it to the other side if you keep turning back, yet if you only knew she'd be there on the beach, then...and since you don't know that, you'd like to go to the other shore anyhow...but you wonder if you should turn back now and see what's there on the beach...or if you'll be missing yet another tide that would have helped you get to the other side faster, to your new life, your future happiness...

To keep the metaphor going, I say swim on to the other side. You are divorced. She filed and that was that. If she wants to catch up with you, she'll have to swim too, not knowing what she'll find on the new shore. At least you'll know she made the effort without guarantees, like the rest of us.

Now, Not everyone can do what I'm about to say so if you can't, you can't. But perhaps you can try to swim to the other side while knowing that she may enter the water sometime later, and she may make the whole swim & come your way and knock on your hut and she may want in...what then??

The answer is not knowable now. It's like asking when you won't think of her anymore. Only time will tell you the answer then. You might be in another R. Or you might still miss her and she might have worked out her own stuff and you two might be evolved into better people who'll make better partners for each other, as my family members who remarried their ex's discovered. (I think I told you that 2 family members of mine div and remarried years later. Better the 2nd time around. It happens).

I found that after my GAL activities had flourished and I was seeking a new job and feeling pretty good about the "no matter what comes, I'm going to be alright" and really believing that, my h wanted totally back in. He had been alone long enough to figure out his happiness was not in his work or new geographic location but he was lonely for us, his family, his mate and his children. I don't know if he dated, but since my experience only confirmed my marital commitment (for the most part), I didn't care to know. But the weird thing was that I did not know if I wanted to restore our m anymore. I was liking my new life and the kids had adjusted and we had our new routine that h was screwing up in a way.

What a problem!! But H said the things he needed to say (wanted to be "the best h he could be, the h I "deserved", would work on it and swore he was over the whole tundra obsession, which I believed b/c I saw first hand what a disaster it was) and I eventually agreed. We did go to mc together and pieced & recommitted. Also went to Retrovaille after a year of piecing, which I highly recommend even if one party goes Reluctantly...(we both wanted to go to Retrovaille, but we saw couples there with one partner resisting, yet ALL were helped by it. Can't say enough about that, btw).

For ME, going forward in my life with or without H wasn't that hard once I began DBing and getting centered. As creepy as it sounds, I did the same things I would do if he were dead, actually. I GAL and improved myself and bonded with the kids and stayed in the same home and job for those 2 years to keep stability for the girls (THE priority was that) and went about my business. I got happier.
I came to believe that no matter what happened with h, I was going to be fine. Life went on. He caught up later. He overcame my natural resistance and distrust.
So if your ex just checks in to probe you to make sure she still has a plan B, (you) you can set that adrift. IF need be, Minimize the contact, maybe tell her you want some space b/c you are working on your new life and she's hindering your progress, no offense. NO NEED TO BE RUDE OR CURT. But what if she really wants back in? What if she changes or does the work?

First off, if she really wants back in, You will know. She won't be vague or fuzzy about it. If she is still fuzzy about it, would you really want to bother fooling around with that?


If you shut the door and assume she's gone, b/c her tactics right now only indicate uncertainty on her end, not necessarily 2nd thoughts, then simply live as if that's it & you two are done. What changes based on that belief? You don't have to be rude to her. You are detached, b/c You are truly single now. Someday maybe you can ask her for dating advice (I think I'm kidding but now I'm not sure).

If she ever makes the real effort to get back with you, you'll know, and at that time you can look around at your life, and assess. She might well evolve enough and the two of you might make a great team someday.
Maybe your d will have been better off b/c she's reconncecting with her bio mom...

Just don't accept half hearted checks/probes as efforts at reconciling. She'll need to be clear about what she wants and why she wants it and what she's willing to do for it, as will you. Cross that bridge when/IF you get to it.

Make sense? Is this too much for you? Too complex emotionally?

If so, then tell her to keep her contacts with D for d's sake using D's cell, and (SIDENOTE-- don't over guilt her about the D, b/c she is your d, not hers and your ex w did rise to the occasion while you were married. Have you ever thanked her for helping you raise another woman' daughter? That would likely be a 180 and I cannot see any harm from thanking her. It might be a good motivator to stay in touch with D b/c guilt is NOT a good motivator. It only pleases the one making them feel guilty and never ever forget that people cannot tolerate guilt for long. They always convert it, usually into anger. It backfires as a motivator. ALSO--re your mother asking your w about moving out or whther she was at fault for the problems, NOT a fair question to ask. Protect your next partner from that type of pressure. It's so awkward and unrealistic to assume you'd get an honest answer or a fair one. I just think It's an unfair burden to put on any woman--IMO.

You cannot expect a frank reply from a wife/DIL and it's just not a cool question to put on her. So for future reference, some women can handle it fine and even like getting a little rent money or child care or help with the house, in exchange for living there. But for me, it's not worth it to lose my privacy. Different strokes...just wanted to say that asking her or having your mother ask her if the problems were HER fault...not going to be productive although it might make the asker feel better.

I think that's enough for tonight b/c I am tired and repeating myself. Hope this isn't more confusion for you.

good luck, stay strong for your d and for you.

[~¤DG¤~]

That was really, really good advice.

[cat04]

My best friend, is also the man that I am in love with.
We started as friends and that friendship has grown

We all started as friends Cat and I have been told by Michelle, Jody and some others not to be afraid of being friends first. There is a problem with this logic in my sitch though, while no one can argue that you must be friends first there are certain steps that I will be missing. Among them the reconnection/dating part. You do realize this step would be completely absent and very important.

Why do those things have to be missing?

Don't you dare tell me distance...

853 driving miles from my front door to that of my BF...

Sure we don't "date" like people who live close, stuff has to be a bit more planned...

I also know another couple who lived 12 hours apart since the beginning of their R, the first two years or so of their M, and have just recently gone through the process of merging the physical living part of their lives. They are very happy.

So I haven't bought that part of your argument from the beginning...

Is there anyone who has followed my sitch that was NOT surprised at the news I got on April 1st? Not in the direction I thought we were going at all.

I wasn't surprised at all to be honest. Your W had been sending very mixed signals, but she never once said that the D was NOT going to happen. Maybe having my experience in the MLC arena (like 25) I have learned to expect the unexpected...

better yet, don't talk. Just BE, as in BE upbeat

I was actually warned about this from my DB couch. I remember a convo we had back in Feb or late Jan that I was very upbeat and was talking about how great things were going. That day I felt really good. She became depressed in the convo. I asked my DB coach about this. She adviced me that I might want to turn down the "doing great" bit a little bit because for a person that felt she was replacesable and not needed all that did was validate that opinion. So I did. Instead of being so "life is great" I told her how much she was needed. Not a trick it was actually a lot closer to how I was feeling.

It might have been closer to how your were feeling, and not necessarily a bad approach but too much of anything is well...

Too much...

It also says to me that your changes weren't as real as you wanted them to be. Because you were still trying to gear your behavior to create the outcome you wanted...

Instead of just being real...

Being 2step...

2,

When you met your W, hell when you meet anyone...

Do you gear YOU, your behavior to what you think you want the relationship to look like?

Or do you just take time, get to know a person, and let them get to know you?

As you are?

Do you know who you are?

What you like, what you want, what you need?

Do you know the deep down honest answers to those questions?

They will help you to just be...

To take what life throws your way and determine at the time what you want to do with it (or not do with it)...

25 gave you some great advice...

Please think about it, really think about it...

And maybe just breathe and live for a while...

If your W comes along...

Great...

If not...

Great...

Find your own happiness 2.

Eventually, there will be someone to join in that happiness and it may just be your W...

[ninelives]

WOW! 25 is my new heroine. Even better than Red Sonja and She Hulk.

Very impressinve 25, 2step , you are very lucky to be getting this advice but it applies to all of us.

I know now that I have been acting very immature to all this and cant get past the hurt of the OM.

The balancing act has always been between being polite and having her cake eat.

Got some more insight for sure.

Thanks 25 and Cat.

Great Posts.

9

[25yearsmlc]

Hey 9,

thanks for the compliments. I am not clear on your sitch b/c your signature says a few ambiguous things. Who was in the mental hospital and are they getting treatment now? And what is the present sitch? Thanks.
j

[25yearsmlc]

9, where is your thread?

[2stepboogie]

Well 25 it would have appear than it a matter of a few days you have become somewhat of a celebrity. As for Cat,she has always been but you came out of nowhere. There is a lot of information here i will start with your post because you answered first and then go with Cat.

I will say this. You ladies are making my head work overtime and I appreciate the feedback more than you ever know.

A single conversation across the table with a wise person is worth a month's study of books, in this case I have several people in the conversation. I am indeed a lucky man.

So let's get to it..........

I think what you are saying is that It's the internal process you are struggling with, correct? It's like You are wondering what your new mantra or theme song should be now, is it "Kiss it Goodbye" , "Re-United", or "Forget You!"

This is exactly how I am feeling. I agree with what you mentioned about the confusing in her own heart and head. I get the impression that she continuously struggles with her decision and constantly talks herself out of what she wants and what she what she feels is the right decision.

I do however think that to a certain degree apart from her own confusion she has experienced a certain level of control with me she never felt she had and enjoys it. Maybe the word enjoys is a bit simplistic but I think you get my meaning.

I will give a short example:
A buddy of mine was talking to her back in Jan, now this buddy is very close to the both of us and she asked him if he had spoken to me recently. He said no. She said 'I know why. He is pi$$ed because I am divorcing his a$$." She feels empowered.

She does constants temp checks on me to make sure I am still around and in her mind (I believe) enjoys thinking that I am still on the line.

I did NOT work more at my job b/c my counselor said the "last thing your kids need is another absent parent" and that made sense.

Some people suffer at work while others consume themselves with work. I was the latter. I worked till 8 sometimes 9 just to avoid coming home. This sounds terrible but I did not want to be around my D much because the guilt and shame I felt was unbearable. My mom took care of D until I got home and then she would leave but by the time I got home D was getting ready for bed. I did this mainly in Jan and early Feb when I felt the worse despair.

As a result my D suffered and I was the cause. Any reminder of XW was painful. I stayed away from friends and things that reminded me of her. This is a sitch that I am presently correcting. I am coming home earlier now and I have banned my cell phone and computer while D is still awake. I am not bitter or short with her. Instead I am happy and upbeat around her. I have spent time playing with her and I am trying to recover some lost time. I will tell you one of the hardest days for me in Jan was my D bday. This day was extremely painful for me. The bday planner when I arrived gave me the bday Dad badge and then asked me when the bday mom would arrive, it took every ounce of energy to keep from crying. I am NOTa crier.

Stress that SHE had nothing to do with it and ask your ex if she could confirm and validate that with D.

This has been done on several occasions by me and by XW just like me my D needs a lot of validation at this time. I know that if I need XW to call her and talk to her she will.

I recall that I had clients who would tell me they were dating "a great guy" but that "he doesn't get along with the kids" and I always interrupted them then to ask, "how is he great if he doesn't get along with your kids?" They were asking for trouble..

Regarding this for the immediate future I am much more interested in healing than I am in dating. However I share your opinion here 1000%. I will be discreet and NO ONE will meet my D unless I have found someone who I have learned to trust, which will be a task in itself. I am a package deal it is a two for one special and unless you can deal with that then you can walk away.

So 2step, Can you (eventually) see dating new women?

Sometimes I am actually excited at the possibilities of dating but those feelings last a very short time. I am still extremely guarded and very hurt, but going forward can I see myself dating. Absolutely. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I consider myself a pretty darn good catch also.

Can you also see your ex w as a potential woman to date? I know she's far away and all, but in theory, can you imagine her as a "pen pal plus", who MIGHT live near you someday

Now the question because a little more hazy in my mind and I guess that has to do with the timing of the question. A pen pal plus? Never really had one before so I have no idea. lol Will she live near me? No. I do not see this scenario in my head in the least. Her mother who is in need of a lot of care lives in the same town and her sister also lives there. That is the extent of her family. So her moving for career or relocation is an absolute no. Now can I imagine dating my XW? Actually I think that would be kind of fun, but dating someone with whom you share so much history I would imagine can be a little tricky, dating from across the country darn right painful (I know Cat I am getting to you):)

If you were to be in a R with a new woman & you came to care for each other, would that be so confusing that it is a bad or a good thing, in your eyes?

Such a simple question that is so incredibly hard to answer. Timing? Maybe it is the timing of the question? If you are asking me this today I don't believe I can give you an honest answer.

Can you progress in your growth without knowing the future?

The other night I went through several pages of my personal journey. I realized I have made some progress and if you go back and read my first two threads they were from a person in such deep pain I hardly knew him. Do I still feel shock? Yes. Do I still feel loneliness? Yes. Do I still feel sad? Every day. BUT. I think I have grown by leaps and bounds since I have been here. I imagine that I will continue, even if I fight it. If there's no breaking then there's no healing, and if there's no healing then there's no learning.

But can you live your life as if you are single, & she's not likely to come back, but she's someone from your past who you once cared deeply for? Shut the door, don't keep looking back at it, but don't lock it either.

In my mind this is a dangerous scenario. The short answer is yes I can, sometimes I stop myself short but I am getting better at that. Now can I close the door but not lock it. WOW, 25, I am not sure.

I know it's hard to swim to the other shore if you keep turning over your shoulder to look back at the beach you left. You feel you won't make it to the other side if you keep turning back, yet if you only knew she'd be there on the beach, then...and since you don't know that, you'd like to go to the other shore anyhow...but you wonder if you should turn back now and see what's there on the beach...or if you'll be missing yet another tide that would have helped you get to the other side faster, to your new life, your future happiness...

To keep the metaphor going, I say swim on to the other side. You are divorced. She filed and that was that. If she wants to catch up with you, she'll have to swim too, not knowing what she'll find on the new shore. At least you'll know she made the effort without guarantees, like the rest of us.


Now, Not everyone can do what I'm about to say so if you can't, you can't. But perhaps you can try to swim to the other side while knowing that she may enter the water sometime later, and she may make the whole swim & come your way and knock on your hut and she may want in...what then??

These paragraph's alone have made me think all day. This metaphor makes so much sense to me that it is silly how it totally computes in my head. I don't know how long you plan on sticking around with us, but if you do you will find that I struggle to get new concepts sometimes. I debate I argue, just ask Cat, but once it clicks and I see it, well it's like the light bulb lit up.

Now the last part. Well you answered it yourself, I can't answer right now. I have a gut feeling on whether she will indeed enter the water or not, but it is just a gut feeling.

Time will tell on whether she enters and how I will react.

I will say that a lot has to do with what she brings to the table and the work she is willing to do to make it work. What she does and says will be very important and even today I refuse to jump back into anything, not that anyone is asking. I do NOT want to back on this site with a new story and new heartbreak.

[b]But what if she really wants back in? What if she changes or does the work?

First off, if she really wants back in, You will know. She won't be vague or fuzzy about it. If she is still fuzzy about it, would you really want to bother fooling around with that?

If she wants back in bad enough I suppose she could do the work. If she is still fuzzy about it then there is nothing to discuss. It is ALL or nothing.

Is this too much for you? Too complex emotionally?

Not too much and def not complex. Actually quite easy to understand.

To answer one of your questions I have not quoted. Yes I have thanked her for being a mother to D and stepping up to the plate I recognize that not everyone is willing to do that.

But for me, it's not worth it to lose my privacy. Different strokes.

My single biggest mistake and one that will NEVER be repeated. That part that bothers me so much is I wanted this to be changed sooooo many times but never pulled the trigger. I should have.

Why do those things have to be missing?
Don't you dare tell me distance...
853 driving miles from my front door to that of my BF...

Well Cat I do see the distance as such a huge barrier. I see the distance in two different way. Good in the sense that it has allowed both of us to grow and reflect without interfering with each other but I see it as a barrier because it also does not allow us to see each other and spend quality time together. But your point is not lost with me. Just wanted to clarify mine.

It also says to me that your changes weren't as real as you wanted them to be. Because you were still trying to gear your behavior to create the outcome you wanted...

Instead of just being real...

I think that is to be expected from anyone in the infant stages of this thing and when that happened I believe I had been on the boards a total of 2-3 weeks tops. I believe to change yourself is perhaps one of the toughest things to do and it takes time and patience. And yes, I always operated with a clear and defined goal in mind. Save the M.

Now as I briefly mentioned the last night I got a short message from XW if you remember it would have been our 9th anniversary yesterday. I did not answer the text instead I showered and went to bed but I did answer it this morning.

Last night 11:30 W: you ok?

This morning 9:20 AM M: yep I am ok. U?

9:57AM W: I'm ok

11:44 AM W: Was just checking considering what yesterday was

12:18PM M: I appreciate it, hope you had a decent day

W: I'm sure u do...Ur welcome. It was alright. Was surprised u didn't contact me

5:03 PM W: Still nothing

5:57PM M: Sorry been tied up all day. I didn't realize you were looking for a response from me.

W: I wasn't

M: "still nothing" Not sure what this means then?

W: I thought u might respond but I didn't expect it

6:31PM M: Been busy all day

8:11PM W: It's ok I understand

M: Last person I figured you'd want to talk to was me yesterday

W: Yes and no. I really wanted to make sure u were ok.
W: That sounds bad and different than how I meant it.
W: I guess a good way is...Hey I know today s^cks..Thinking of ya hope ur ok...There that sounds better.

M: Yeah I can see that

W: U see what?

M: Your last comment just figured you wanted your space as you've indicated to me

W: Oh ok...Now I am confused...Was just saying...Hey hope ur doing ok

M: I am ok hope you are also

W: Thank You

That was it.

So if you have made this far without falling asleep I commend you and I will share a song with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OId8ByO4jg

[2stepboogie]

25 I've been meaning to ask you. Who was your DB coach?

[2stepboogie]

25 I forgot to mention I hardly ever spell check but when I go back and read my post sometimes I sound like dope. Anyways hope you are a patient woman