The big punch

[25yearsmlc]

Another long note but I hope this helps. These are based on old posts of mine I could not find copies of but people said were helpful. So I'm re-doing them here.

First, from my past...my h is an MD and he used to pull extra call or do extra cases. He said it was for the valuable experience or b/c we "needed" the money, or someone needed a favor. Although I can honestly say we never "needed" the money, the other excuses were sometimes, just that. Excuses. To me, it felt like he was choosing career over family. He seemed to want the admiration of colleagues at work more than the love of his family at home. Maybe, I was "right." For the sake of discussion, let's say I was correct in my assessment and he was being selfish.

What did I do? I would literally and emotionally have my arms crossed when h came home b/c I did not want to "reward" him for his selfish choices. I thought that if I were warm and loving, that he'd feel he could "get away" with being selfish and perhaps would do even more selfish things. That was my fear. So I chose to punish him or "teach him a lesson" by being cold upon his arrival. When the kids were little they'd run up to see him and jump in his arms and even this I didn't encourage...b/c I was "right" to be mad.

You'd think that after a DECADE of doing this behavior, I would try something different or new. NOPE! Fact is, my brilliant approach did NOT work! So I kept doing it! It did NOT make h want to come home. (And why would he? What was I thinking?) I was so concerned with being "right" that I forgot to be happy, and I forgot to do what works. That meant I would have to change my behavior...what?? OMG!

So when h left for the great adventure of the tundra up north (his version of MLC) I had my work cut out for me. I hired a DB coach (single best thing I did to save our marriage, btw. WELL WORTH IT)....She helped me to wake up and change my approach.

She told me to contrast his new world, with ours at home. Our home had to be warm (literally & figuratively) and loving to contrast with the cold darkness up there. Also note, Since most WAS's vilify their LBSer, I knew I had to counter the negative images or excuses h was using. So if he had complained that I nagged, I stopped nagging! If he said I wasn't doing enough of "A or B, I began to work on A & B if they were things that needed work. Make sense? She says you are indecisive, then make some decisions and don't second guess them. Very few things are irrevocable so take a chance. Order the new root beer!

I also had to lose the anger, at least in front of him or on the phone. That meant I had to let go of my "grievance list" of harms and wrongs he had done, and I had to work on forgiveness.

(I did not see forgiveness as a child growing up so I didn't know what it really looked like and I confused it with condoning bad behavior). Forgiveness is NOT condoning bad behavior. But it IS mandatory to our health. So is not obsessing about everything the WAS does/thinks/feels.

I could not whine about what H was doing to us when he called. (B/C he would not call if I did! Seems obvious now...)

I had to be calm and upbeat. I could not lash out at him. My first goals (baby steps) were to be able to talk to him on the phone without fighting. Sometimes I had to end the conversation first b/c I feared he would irritate me too much with his self absorbed cluelessness. OTher times I DB'd and ended the talks first b/c I was busy with my new cool life, that he COULD be a part of, if he was lucky...someday...

The issue isn't being "right"; it's being happy. So Lose the score card (for or against yourself, it's counter productive) and start doing what works. What were you like when she fell in love with you? Can you recreate some of that guy? Can you joke around at all, or have some banter? Can you have 5 minutes of conversation that isn't stress filled?

You will have to show her that marriage to you NOW, would be a vastly improved one and to show that, you will have to behave differently.
If the opportunity arises naturally, one way to say it would be "If I had it over to do, I'd do some things differently"...and move on to a new topic. Don't dwell on the R unless she does and even then, unless she's clearly telling you something, (as opposed to merely probing) you have to just say that things would be different and give a specific choice you'd make differently. Do NOT repeat the old behavior of pursuit/pleading. Do NOT challenge her choices, or question them anymore, b/c it only makes her reinforce them to validate them. Instead, if she ways you were whatever...weak, indecisive, and IF you agree, you can validate and say "I'm working on that" and make it clear that a problem being worked on, is no longer a problem.

You have the right to contact with your minor child (I Know this for a fact). Establish what works for you both, and your call will NOT have to take place when you are working, but it will before the child goes to sleep. If you were a bartender with late hours you would not call her at midnight when she's got school the next day, obviously. But what you were asking for was reasonable. BUT if you cannot resolve it quickly together, then Let the L's handle this.

I know involving lawyers often is expensive AT FIRST...but in the long run, a few hours of a lawyer's time will work to your advantage. How? B/C You'll establish boundaries, show her you have a spine, especially when it comes to your d. You won't cower if she threatens you with legal action b/c you have your own advocate. You are showing her (AND YOUR DAUGHTER--THIS MATTERS SO MUCH) that you are going to fight for time with her b/c it is good for HER and YOU.

Calling your L whenever you need to, for now, demonstrates that you won't be pushed around and both of you will be motivated to give a little so in the long run, you'll have fewer hassles and be more motivated to act like adults. The money well spent now will save you both money down the road AND will save you heartache AND possibly lay the groundwork for friendship and co-parenting. Mainly it will save you a bunch of bad stuff down the road. I hate to tell you this but if you Had hired a L earlier in this process, you may have prevented your w from moving away with your d in the first place...


So, become a man only a fool would leave. Some of the description you gave earlier of the marital relationship sounded as if she was parental to you. That's not attractive to a woman, especially after she has a real child.
The more manly and adult like you are, the more you'll contrast that image of you she has, with the new you. You have to counter those negatives, b/c she's using them to justify her choice to break up the family. WHen you whine or cry it only reinforces to her that you are not an equal in the M, but more of a child for her to care for. She already has a child; she wants a partner.


Let her have the time and space it takes to see that you are growing up fast. Most women when pressed, will admit that they want to know that if they needed to be cared for, their man could do it. Let me expound on this b/c someone else asked me to re-post it and I can't find my old post on this so I'm re-doing it here. It applies to your sitch and might help you with cultural differences & seeing the male female R in a new way.

I'll put this in purely basic terms, & suggest this analogy based on a study done about 20 years ago.

Men & women were asked what 2 things were most important to them in a spouse. Men said "attractiveness, and peace in the home" (Some say that meant the man wants to be attracted to his wife physically and know that other men are, & 2) he wants no nagging/criticism at home.)

Women said the two most important things to them in their partners were "fidelity and security" which to most analysts meant no cheating and feeling secure & safe. Safe means not just safe from bad guys but safe and [i]financially secure too[/i]. For instance, Is the man a good, reliable provider?


Now, Keeping the study's results in mind and using the caveman example...A couple lives in a cave with their newborn. When a woman has a mate and a newborn, she wants to know that when her man leaves the cave, he will return with meat and whatever other food they need. That he will "provide" (don't think that the term "good provider" is irrelevant today. It may be sexist but it's real for many women). The woman wants to know that no wild animals will break into the shelter while he's gone, b/c he's built it well enough rocks. She misses her mate but she feels safe. The man wants to know that the while he is gone, no others are invading his cave, that his child is cared for, (is his), and that he is welcomed home to the cave, w/ warmth & affection & nurturing and that the berries and food they gathered before, have been well cared for & managed..

Is it possible that To her, you were either staying in the cave hoping she'd go out hunting & gathering, or that you may not return with meat, or return at all b/c you might "freak out" or lose the meat to an animal who frightened you or b/c you were too "weak & confused" to decide (your words...).

Modern examples of the caveman going out hunting and gathering are earning a good salary, showing ambition, managing the finances and helping with the baby & the home projects, taking pride in the yard or home, etc.

So to her, perhaps, she's been shouldering the duties of the man and the woman. (I am not saying she's right but I am saying you have to understand exactly what she saw so you can start showing the opposite. to counter the negative images.

If She was raising the daughter, and was doing most of the child care, and also working full time (?) & earning money and you said you were having trouble keeping it together emotionally, that doesn't build a sense of safety in a woman, and once we have children that "good provider" thing matters even more.
So being with a man who might "lose it" at any moment undermines our feelings of security.

Sidenote--If your family challenged her mothering in any way and you did not fully and openly support her, and stand up to your family in the process, you can be sure she felt betrayed, & saw you as a weak disloyal h....sorry but many of us can say "been there, done/seen that"....

Hope this doesn't overwhelm you but helps to clarify how she might see things and what you need to work on for your own action plan.

[25yearsmlc]

bits,

thanks.

[2stepboogie]

25yearsmic:

Again another great post.

I wish you would have been around when I first started, although I must admit I have been lucky enough to have some “heavy hitters” stay with me throughout this process, BUT as is the rule in the Army…….What is the maximum capacity of any vehicle or aircraft? ONE MORE!! LOL

[LITB]

Indeed a couple of great post by 25yearsmlc.

MyKarma, she gave you some excellent advice. Advice that we all can utilize. Hope you are doing well today.

[alamo76]

Sidenote--If your family challenged her mothering in any way and you did not fully and openly support her, and stand up to your family in the process, you can be sure she felt betrayed, & saw you as a weak disloyal h....sorry but many of us can say "been there, done/seen that"....

Hi 25yearsmlc, your comments are hitting home for me, especially the part above. During the birth and 3 months after, my parents who were visiting from Asia were seen as a parenting threat to my wife and I didn't support my wife enough in this regard. Till this day she still hangs it over my head. I can do all the opposite of all her issues and complaints about me, but I'm not sure if there'll ever be a "solution" for this.

[25yearsmlc]

Sidenote--If your family challenged her mothering in any way and you did not fully and openly support her, and stand up to your family in the process, you can be sure she felt betrayed, & saw you as a weak disloyal h....sorry but many of us can say "been there, done/seen that"....

Hi 25yearsmlc, your comments are hitting home for me, especially the part above. During the birth and 3 months after, my parents who were visiting from Asia were seen as a parenting threat to my wife and I didn't support my wife enough in this regard. Till this day she still hangs it over my head. I can do all the opposite of all her issues and complaints about me, but I'm not sure if there'll ever be a "solution" for this.

Stand up for your wife now-- to your parents. Better late than never.

[alamo76]

Sidenote--If your family challenged her mothering in any way and you did not fully and openly support her, and stand up to your family in the process, you can be sure she felt betrayed, & saw you as a weak disloyal h....sorry but many of us can say "been there, done/seen that"....

Hi 25yearsmlc, your comments are hitting home for me, especially the part above. During the birth and 3 months after, my parents who were visiting from Asia were seen as a parenting threat to my wife and I didn't support my wife enough in this regard. Till this day she still hangs it over my head. I can do all the opposite of all her issues and complaints about me, but I'm not sure if there'll ever be a "solution" for this.

Stand up for your wife now-- to your parents. Better late than never.

Sad to say, in my situation, that may be a moot point now. This was almost 3 years ago, and my wife has already moved out and filed, and will have nothing to do with me (as far as I know), let alone my family.

[♪CS♪]

WOW! Simply WOW!!! Karma read that post carefully, after you have read it, read it again!!

Simply one of the best post I have read on this forum.

Just want to echo this statement. This post breaks down DB'ing so well. As much as we all read it, a good clear reminder is always appreciated.

Great to hear from a success story! Hope you stick around 25.

[Redo]

25yearsmlc : The first thing i should say is thank you so much for taking time to write the post. I really appreciate it. Yup, i'll be reading this post a lot of times.

I'll try to answer some of your questions. This will also help me evaluate where i am.

180's GAL : In the past i have always been needy and desperate with my wife. Not anymore at-least when i talk with her. When she has crossed the line on some of the divorce issues, i did let her know that I am willing to take it to the next step if she does not stop. She did. My GAL. Not much at the moment socially. But i have been working out more and set some goals for myself in terms of my higher education.

Lawyers: Yup, this was a big mistake i did. Thought i could handle this myself as i thought lawyers might only add more stress into our situation. Also, my in-laws suggested that we try to do this without lawyers and i yielded to them. Right now i have let me my wife know that i do have a lawyer now and will use her if she crosses some of the lines when it comes to daughter.

My personal improvement: Sad to say i have slipped back to me being scared and not hopeful about the future. I am not needy anymore. But there's a loong way for me to go here.

Books: Yup i have read the DR book. I have also read the NUTs book which i believe has helped me a lot.

standing up for wife: Yup, i did fail her once when my parents were there. But what happened after that was that my wife villified my parents totally by not even letting my daughter talk to them totally. Even then i went with her decision, but started bottling up emotions and got depressed. What i learnt from all this is the necessity of having good boundaries. I did have any.
The biggest problem was that my in-laws played a big part in our lives and wife always wanted me to be like her dad. When she finally realized that i could not be like him, she felt betrayed and hence the D.

All i know now is that as you said: I need to deal with my co-dependency behavior and learn to be happy myself.

Thanks again for your insightful feedback.

[Redo]

25yearsmlc: This is in response to your second post (i saw it only after posting for the first one).

Yup, I wish i'd come here the first time wife left in 2009.

In regards to the women requiring the security, i think for most part, i think i did my job.

Wife never worked. We made sure my job would provide for us so that she could spend time with daughter. I rarely missed any of my daughter's appts even though she had child eczema issue. Even before daughter was born, my wife knew that I would always take her side when it came between her and anyone else.

I could be totally wrong in my analysis, but there were certain things that just fell into place.

1: Yup when it came to relationship (esp with my wife), I always and always operated with the fear that if i dont make her happy, she might leave me. Th reason being that my parents fought a lot and being a singleton did not develop any conflict resolving skills. Also, we got married when i was in grad school. I guess i never got to grow socially.

2: Wife's family is huge and very social. Quite a contrast with my family. All of wife's family is in the US and i have 0 family in the US. So wife's family began dispensing relationship advice and wife wanted me to follow it. The basic advise was always "just make her happy". Complicating matters i guess was that wife always wanted me to be like her dad. I thought i could change myself. I later realized that i could never change fully to become someone else. Too late because then wife felt like i betrayed her and broke my 'promise'

3: Since wife always thought i was very poor in handling relationship issues, i introspected myself, went to therapists and figured that it was because of my childhood issues. So i opened up to her, told her how i grew up always scared when my parents fought etc etc. This happened after daughter was born in 2008. I hoped that wife would understand why i always had a tough time dealing with things that for her was piece of cake. Instead now my wife actually started worrying that our daughter might turn up like me and so wanted nothing to do with my parents and started distancing from me slowly. Looking back, i should have developed a friends circle and sought their help than my wife's.

4: Parents came right when we were expecting. It all started with a silly argument between my wife and mom. My mistake was that i got upset with both of them. Wife felt that i never supported her. Later on things just worse because either wife stopped talking with my parents. I guilted myself because i was the only child and did not want to see my parents in that situation. Later after daughter was born, wife and my in-laws told my parents that they could not talk with my daughter. I think that was the final nail that drove me to depression. But even then i still had my job and never shied away from take share of house duties and helping wife with daughter. I was hoping that wife will soften up if i did that. Instead it just got worse.

Sorry i have rambled a lot.
But after the NUTs book, i realize where and how i went wrong. I did not take an adult responsibilty for my family as a man. Instead i just waited for my wife to take charge and followed. She hated this and felt that she could never rely on me and wanted out...