Hmmm, I may have to try "His Needs, Her Needs" too. Have you read through 5LL?
Same topic, different approach slightly. 5LL is probably more "practical" in that it is about EXPRESSING support/love to your S; HN,HN is more "theoretical" and says "typically, men and women have these needs that, if not fulfilled, will result in them looking elsewhere". So they're really complementary (for example, 5LL will list "words of affirmation" as a manner in which someone understands appreciation; HN,HN will list "conversation and affection" as needs.
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I always shared her goals, but I learned the hard way that I wasn't showing that to her in the way she needed to see it.
That's the problem--I can't communicate in a way she understands, and she can't tell me what she needs... ("if I have to tell you, it doesn't count").
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I've already seen differences in just a few days. Detach, validate, no R talk...Detach, validate, no R talk...
Trying, man! Trying!
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The most important thing I can tell you right here and now is that your M can be saved!
Like Mulder in the X-files, "I want to believe!"
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You mentioned your W's great emails while she was gone to the States. Was there any other time the two of you had written each other Do you think she communicates better in person or emails? How about you? I gathered you might not be a big talker.
Unfortunately, I tend to be a pretty bad listener, although I've gotten MUCH better. The thing is, we have a long history of text communication--we dated long-distance for three years in college, writing letters; she wrote me a letter every week (this was before email, for you young pups!). And in the past we have communicated almost better via email than in person.
That's why I was so frustrated by the communications working well and her returning and being so distant!
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Had she even hinted in the emails that she felt "done"?
NO. Her emails during that last stretch contained things like "I know what I want: more sex with you..." and "I have not even begun to love you" and "THANK YOU for saying that! This gives me such hope! Big wet smooches!" We had been having troubles before, and then this seemed very hopeless, and then CLICK! she shut down. WEIRD. I keep wondering if there was an OM in that time frame, but haven't seen evidence and she has reassured me that "although she might have had an affair if she had the opportunity, she hasn't yet."
She had a hormone test after getting back to the states, but it turned out normal.
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Oh, and in that sentence, insert "I want passionate sex!" (Don't shake your head. She does want to experience passion!
I know--and I do too! I even found a box and receipt for an, ah, "personal gratification device" in her bathroom before she moved downstairs. It's SO frustrating for BOTH of us to want sex and yet be unable to do anything about it! She even seemed somewhat into the kiss we tried before backing off and saying "aaah, this is confusing!" So I know there's somehing there.
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Listen to her carefully.
She wants "tempting". Not just in love/sex, but in EVERYTHING--"My partner should tempt me to adventure."
It's this "tempting" thing that confuses me. I never really learned to flirt. I can OFFER her adventure--but she's not interested. It's the flirtation/tempting thing that I'm having trouble getting.
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She is saying, "Make me happy......in spite of how I feel!"
Yes she is.
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Going back to college at 40 might have been a lot of fun at first, but let me give you a thought from what may be the mind of a woman in MLC. She is seeing all these twenty-year old girls preparing for their futures. Maybe she started to secretly compare herself to the younger women. Maybe she got a crush on a younger man and then felt guilty or even lacking. Maybe something triggered a MLC. She sees about half her life gone and she wants more than what she presently feels.
This is EXACTLY what happened; similar themes have come up in conversations; she wants "college friends" that go out and party together; she saw one of our good friends get picked up for a London law job and stay out until 5am partying with her coworkers, all these young people fired up with enthusiasm and drive.
But hey, I did too--getting my butt kicked by early-20s physicists who had forgotten more than I knew! It was a really exciting time. I miss it a lot.
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Please be careful while GAL. There are a lot of women out there who would not think anything about hitting on you. Although it might help your ego, it would not be worth things in the end.
It's a mixed bag, because actually my ego, or lack of same, is one of the real problems. When I think about it rationally, I am a CATCH-- fit, attractive, funny, successful, educated to the doctoral level at a world-class university, and good at everything from flying helicopters to taking starring roles in plays. BUT I have NO confidence with women. W actually said in therapy that she wished I would flirt more (with other women!) and that if a mistress would give me more confidence, that I should get one. Needless to say, I have no interest in this (and I don't THINK it was "if he gets a mistress, I am clear to pursue OM", but it's academic since I'm not interested anyway).
So the dance classes and such have been almost for the express purpose of learning harmless flirting in a fairly consequence-free environment so that I can be better at flirting with/tempting W. If I am at risk for an affair, it is NOT from that--it's from my best friend here, my first-ever girlfriend (from age 14, lol) whom I am good friends with and has been supportive through this. However (happily) I love her husband and son to death, would never do anything to hurt them, and have monitored our interactions VERY CLOSELY to make sure it's healthy. It is.
Had an interesting observation today in terms of basic world outlooks for my W and I. I favor activities where I can know I'm doing it RIGHT (say, dance classes or rehearsed stage shows). She favors activities where she CAN'T know she's doing it WRONG (say, open dance-how-you-want in a club or improv). I think that's a fundamental thing, and it's colored some of our interactions. I'm not sure what to do about it yet, though.
Hm, more thought necessary. Today's going ... okay, if neutral.
Hoswald Your last post was brilliant, flirting. Why didn't I think of that!! A common complaint in my sitch and elsewhere in the forum is the lack of sparks. I wonder if flirting will do it. It also made me think of something else. It's a common saying that all women want attention. Well in nature this is not necessarily true, the female of the species may have many suitors but will only accept those she finds worthy. I think this holds true for women too. Saying that women merely want attention implies that even the biggest loser will have a chance at picking up that hottie at the bar. Which we all know is not true. Instead women seek attention from quality suitors. WAW most likely no longer believe their H are quality and thus want to escape and become susceptible to other suitors or OM. The principles of DB make you a better person and thus quality. High confidence and self respect is definitely a quality necessary for winning over women. Just some stuff to think about.
Yeah--curiously, though, I'm in the situation where she seems to believe I *am* quality and has said this to our MC, me, etc ("he's a great guy... I would write a recommendation letter for him to any other woman in the world"). Her take is that she doesn't think SHE should ever be married--that she "is too much affected by my opinions" and that being married to someone else at all mean she will try to suppress her own personality and dreams.
And, of course, she just views me as a friend now. Hm.
So I have to flirt with her without pursuing her while simultaneously convincing her that marriage offers more freedom and options, not less, while both demonstrating my high value and making her feel an equal. Simple
Had actually a really fun day with her today, spending easter at an arcade playing video games together (her idea!). We had a blast, now going to spend the evening watching movies and such. It was really fun... but still my clumsy efforts at flirting fall on deaf ears, and she still switches between "I feel like I have to run, to get out NOW NOW NOW" and "well, I'd really like to get the new windows in before winter hits." I'm getting rollercoaster backlash on a daily basis
And all told, I'm doing really well "for myself". She's leaving for a week or two on Wednesday, and I think I'm going to be just fine... I'll have more trouble if we decide she's leaving for the whole summer, but one thing at a time, one thing at a time...
I think somewhere in the process of being married and caring for a family it is easy to slip into boring, predictable family-man-land. It might even be what our Ws need or want at that time. We have to put hobbies and friends on the shelf for awhile. And it can be tough to pull ourselves out of. But Gentlemen, think about what we all mention here - we are musicians, songwriters, pilots, actors, divers, people with interesting jobs and interests who are getting ourselves back into shape, training at night or running the Boston Marathon. (cue the Rocky music) And we're committed to the hard work of making our Ms work.
Speaking just for myself here - what I have been missing is the swagger.
By the way hoswald, if you fly helicopters get your W up there! Think about it - a VERY cool date night where you are in your element and in control of the situation. That's what SCUBA was for me, back in the day....
StillLearning: <tired_soldier_voice>nah, man... I don't do that stuff any more</tired_soldier_voice>. The pilot lifestyle turned out to be a big stressor for me and W actually, one of the reasons I left it (and left the career to follow W... only to rejoin when she couldn't/wouldn't get a job... TWICE, which is why I get very frustrated when she talks about how constraining my career has been for her).
However, I have tried to get her doing SCUBA, to absolutely no avail. Or indoor skydiving, to absolutely no avail. Or ANYTHING. Which is why her big complaint that I "don't tempt her to adventure" is so frustrating.
She says that I have "too much impact on her", and it's frustrating... like when she showed interest in doing amateur stage acting and I said "aw, man, I'd be so jealous if you got a good part"--which was meant as admiration and which she instead took as "YOU MUST NOT DO THIS", stopped pursuing it, and then held it against me for years without telling me. Or when she wanted to go on trips and I said I would miss her, which she then interpreted as me saying she couldn't do it, and then resented me for it. Um, sorry, I thought missing your life partner when she was away was a good thing? It didn't mean she couldn't go... what was I supposed to say, "oh thank god you're getting out of here for a while"?
No idea where she is in the M right now. Very fun weekend and still no spark that I can see, though it was great to see her laughing and having fun. My lamish attempts at flirtation and compliments seem to vanish into a black hole, though.
Good consult w/Jody; that was quite pleasant actually. Didn't quite answer all the questions I wanted to ask (ran out of time) but good to know I was on the right track with most behaviours and just a bit off on a few others.
This next week-and-a-half separation may be good (bit nervous as we have a MC session the day she leaves and sometimes those can be rough--don't want her to leave on a bad note). I'm still trying to avoid a long-term separation if possible.
Jody's three recommendations in my situation were:
1) Let her know I 'get it' (validate, give compliments ("hey, that's impressive") rather than praise ("I'm so proud of you"), and have more fun (confirming what I have already noticed: "Hey, you wanna do X?" is MUCH LESS EFFECTIVE than "Hey, I'm gonna go do X, want to come along?" and then doing it whether or not W does).
2) Act like this time of "just being friends" is good for both of us ("breathing space"). Do things together, but NOT romantic and NOT as "dates". Mixed feelings on this since she also gives "I want to be seduced" vibes sometimes, but we'll press with it and see what happens.
3) GAL stuff, with a focus on initiating social contact (with friends, coworkers, etc), aiming to build social confidence. Ha, this one is really tough for me! But also one of the biggest things I can learn to do... IF I can do it! Takes a surprising amount of effort for me.
We'll see, though--as mentioned she's leaving for about 10 days this Wednesday which will give me some opportunity to practice GAL stuff on my own. Could be fun, could be scary--or both!
I believe flirting is essential to a sexy MR. You can go on line and google in "how to flirt" and get all kind of "tips", but the biggest “trick” is to use your own personality to make her feel [u]ATTRACTION[/u toward you.
I think one of the sexist thing a man can do is give a wink at his woman. He can watch her from a crowded room and when she looks his way....and he gives her this little knowing smile....and winks. But many women feel that if she tells him how it thrills her for him to wink at her.....then is ruins the effect. Maybe that is what your W meant, IDK.
The point is to make sure you are not boring! It's nice to be friends with your S, but it's better to be attracted to her. Anyone can be her friend, but you want her to be sexually attracted to only you, and nobody else.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
