Well, I thought my attempts at DBing were going well, and indeed she was the one who brought up wanting to talk about the relationship tonight. But since the context of the talk was her rights during a separation including how much "alimony" she should have access to, I'm not certain my efforts have really been rewarded adequately.
I handled it very well, but I have to admit I'm pretty numb. Considering the conversation was immediately followed by both of us cooking dinner, I'm shaken.
Doing better than expected, though. I didn't burst out in tears or break down, just listened and validated what I could validate. Imagine I'll be a wreck tomorrow.
Hmm. Ok, worst and yet most hopeful night in a while. She's seriously contemplating a separation except she's not sure what it'll really solve. But here's the part that gives me peculiar hope:
"I get more and more sure I'm going to leave. And the more sure I'm going to leave, the better I get and the more I feel like if I can feel that way, I can probably stay. And then I think about staying and I feel powerless and like I have to run, and so I want to leave again."
One of her themes is the idea of learned helplessness--that she doesn't have any control over her life. So I feel like if we can make her feel like she has control, she's more likely to stay. But... she's still researching how much alimony she'd get, but assures me she'll try to be fair (heh). Although she did say "I don't like being this person. I don't want to be this person."
Anyway, at the end of the hard conversation, I laughed and when she asked why, I said "because even after that, I want to kiss you."
"Wanna give it a try?" she asked.
And so we kissed, first time in a long while. Not long and not particularly passionately, and then she called it off because she was confused (we have a conversational "safe word" which means "OK, this conversation stops RIGHT NOW" after some lasted too long).
So no idea what to think. We meet with our MC next Wednesday, and I have a 1-session DB phone coaching on Monday (more if it turns out positive). Probably won't sleep tonight--GOOD LORD this is confusing.
Well, after last night's threatening to call a lawyer and see what her alimony rewards will be... despite the POSITIVE stuff that happened in that conversation, I'm pretty numb. I think that after me funding four (!) advanced degrees for her without her ever working a serious job, I'd owe significant pay. I expressed worry that I might lose the house and she said "oh, I'd never do that to you"--sure, but seven months ago she was swearing she'd love me forever and two months ago said that if she left she'd just take the car and her laptop.
So I'm numb. I couldn't even manage to cry, which is my usual response; I'm not entirely sure if that's a step up or down. But I'm proud of how I held myself during the conversation.
She said during MC that using my money while only providing companionship and sex (I even do most of the cooking) made her feel "like a whore". What does it make her if she uses my money while providing nothing but pain?
Another thing--took a small sample of the guys in my year group in my office... man, ALL of them are having trouble to a greater or lesser degree (one divorce, one "staying together for the kids but nonfriendly", one "she's freaking out as retirement approaches"). This is even more common than I thought, and disastrous. Good lord. What is the world coming to?
Glad that you found the DB board during this painful time in your M. I encourage you to try to post as often as possible. It helps you and it keeps members interested in your thread.
I will try to share some personal feelings that I experienced that might be similar to what your W is facing. The most important thing I can tell you right here and now is that your M can be saved!
Whenever I hear a woman say that she is "done" in a M, I immediately search for signs of depression. So, you can see that in reading your thread, I was thinking she could be depressed before you even brought it up about her having a history of depression. There are many flags that are waving in regard to her being depressed, but I will try to touch that more in another reply. (Hope I don't sound arrogant, b/c I'm really not.... )
Before I take up a lot of time talking about thyroid, sex, and other hormones, you can tell me if she is on any type of HRT. Also, does she have any other health problems and does she take medication for depression daily or just when she can't coop?
I know this is a lot of questions, and I hope you don't mind sharing. I had some of the same feelings that you say your W is having. When i look back at my stitch, I can see that I was in bad shape, much worse than I ever dreamed. It was a combination of health problems, depression, void of several types of hormones, and years of much stress. Maybe most folks go through that, but I can tell you that it did not help my M problems! In fact, it played a big part of tearing it apart.
I never want to sound as if I am shifting everything I did wrong over to my health problems, b/c that is not the case. I had an EA with a man I met on the Internet. Lovely, huh? So, I take responsibility for my behavior. What I am saying about the health situation is that if she is having similar problems....it can cause her to become very vulnerable to seeking "emotional connection" elsewhere.
My M survived my EA. I give most of the credit to this board, right here. That's why I stick around, in case I can pay it forward.
You mentioned your W's great emails while she was gone to the States. Was there any other time the two of you had written each other Do you think she communicates better in person or emails? How about you? I gathered you might not be a big talker.
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...two weeks later when she came back to help with the move, she wouldn't kiss me
She felt no chemistry! Had she ever acted like that before? Why would she talk one way in emails and when show time came in person....no action. Had she even hinted in the emails that she felt "done"?
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her individual therapist has implied that "once you feel done, it'll never change."
That IC is wrong, and is not helping your W to say those things.
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She has a history of depression but assures me that her therapist says she's not depressed now.
Sounds as if she needs to drop that therapists! Only through medical tests can any doctor know for sure a person's mental health condition. She is either not telling you everything straight, or that therapist is causing her harm, IMHO.
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she said "this is comfortable and livable, but it's not enough. I need a REASON to stay."
And this has become her theme song. She is saying, "I'm unhappy, I'm drained, and don't have the energy to change things. Make me happy!" Oh, and in that sentence, insert "I want passionate sex!" (Don't shake your head. She does want to experience passion!
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"By the way, I haven't had an affair, although I admit I was tempted
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"this is comfortable and livable, but it's not enough
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if marriage is just like friendship but with fewer options, why do it?"
Listen to her carefully.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
We went for a walk around a lake and then dinner, and ... if she'd totally given up, she wouldn't have gone with me and had fun conversations, right.
That is a plus for the M. Many couples in crises do not have a friendly R. So, use those things to your advantage. Don't push for more right now.
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But if she was really interested in fixing things, she wouldn't be so tense all the time and feel a fight-or-flight reaction constantly.
One of the problems here is that she doesn't want to work to fix things. She feels drained and sees little hope, and really I think she's just dropping it in your lap to do it all. She is saying, "Make me happy......in spite of how I feel!"
That fight or flight felling....or how that brings up old memories of when I was a WAW. I felt trapped in an old, dead M with an old H who made me feel old.... Sometimes, I had to almost take off running out of the building b/c I felt the air had been sucked up by some invisible object. It's horrible living in that condition and it's not always as simple as just making the choice not to be like that way. When you reach the point of wanting to literally "run", it has become rather serious.
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Which is it, and ... well, how can I help?
Sadly, it is both. And, when she does decide to stay in the M, there will be more days of having to deal with those feelings. They don't stop just b/c we've decided to do the right thing or b/c we don't want them.
What you can do right now is to make sure you are not applying emotional pressure to her. No expectation from her. That puts a heavy burden on you. Can you do it? I bet you can b/c the requirements are lots of love and lots & lots of patients.
Another thing you can do is find out all you can about the type of depression she may have at this time in her life. However, maybe you've researched that subject in the past.
Be careful about trying to encouraging her to do things. Sounds crazy, but she'll take it from a stranger better than from you. For example, trying to encourage her to finish her studies (if I understood correctly). Being depressed will certainly cause her to lose momentum. It is actually putting pressure on her, instead of encouragement.
Going back to college at 40 might have been a lot of fun at first, but let me give you a thought from what may be the mind of a woman in MLC. She is seeing all these twenty-year old girls preparing for their futures. Maybe she started to secretly compare herself to the younger women. Maybe she got a crush on a younger man and then felt guilty or even lacking. Maybe something triggered a MLC. She sees about half her life gone and she wants more than what she presently feels. Perhaps she observed other couples (in person or in books) and they seem to have so much passion for life and for each other. Especially in novels! Oh, the hero always know exactly what the female is thinking....feelings....desires, etc. She doesn't have to tell him a thing b/c he just "knows"! They are not only lovers, but soul mates. Sound familiar?
Some people may laugh at the idea, but IMHO, books and movies has had a lot to do with the misconceptions that some women have about men.....especially thinking men should know what they want without being told. Only in books do you find that to be true!
So anyway, while being her cheerleader is wonderful....it may not be accepted in the spirit given. It's hard to explain and I've been there as a WAW in crises. My H would compliment me and it would have a negative impact on me. The OM could say the same thing, and it would thrill me. I did not have my heart open to my H. I had it open to the OM.
I think that not having that chemistry, that sexual attraction for the H causes the W to act cold. Some become bitter and hateful over time.
I remember having so much resentment and feeling that my life had been wasted during the years M to my H. I wanted to experience real passion and excitement before I died!
I went through years of wanting this and that in our MR. Then I reached a point of feeling nothing. I had no desire for anything. I felt as if something had died in me. That was a big red flag, but I didn't know it. I had become vulnerable to something....anything that would cause me to feel excitement so that I would know I was still alive. Enter....OM.
She is not the only one vulnerable. You feel lonely and rejected and that put you at risk. Please be careful while GAL. There are a lot of women out there who would not think anything about hitting on you. Although it might help your ego, it would not be worth things in the end.
Well, I hope I haven't scared you away with all this chatter. Take good care of yourself. Let us know how you're doing.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hos... you are a smart man. I'm enjoying the dialogue between you and gb90. Great stuff.
So... detach.
You are very involved in the analysis of your M and W. This is good stuff and enlightening. As other's would say around here... how's that workin' for you?
I found that detaching did not change my love for my W. So no fear. What it did, was allowed me (or caused me?) to go through the emotions that needed to happen, in order for me to move forward. I still am M and will be so unless the future provides otherwise. And I will continue to DB in a way that effects positive change in myself.
And with all the analysis and journaling you are doing here, and vent... vent HERE, where it's safe. You can do as sandi says, "Listen to her carefully."
Reading DB and DR and other resources are great. Even better is doing the work sheets! Create a plan. Plan the work and work the plan... man...!
Hey hoswald, hope you are doing ok today. I can relate to your situation. First, I'd say you are getting good advice here. Second, some thoughts:
Graduate programs can really screw with people's heads - the stress, the feeling of not being quite in the "real world", and the uncertainty of what comes next, and where that might be. I've been there, and so has my W. You and I are similar in age too.
And you seem to have noticed something I noticed with my W. When she is unhappy she will tell me what's missing in her life. But if I try to "fix" that, or provide what's missing, well, it usually doesn't work. Sometimes thats not really what she wanted, or the way she wanted it, or she didn't want to have to point it out to me. She couldn't accept compliments or dates or gifts when she didn't "feel close to me", didn't laugh it my jokes - but she could easily accept these things from others. SHe would say she'd lost respect for me, or didn't feel close to me, telling me to "be a man" - her way giving me the flashing red warning light I think. She especially hated me complimenting the way she looked. I had to build the attraction first, which is a work in progress.
For me, I first had to stop doing some things that were unattractive, weak, or otherwise driving her for the hills. Man, this was not easy and I had to take some measures I hadn't considered, but that's what it takes.
Then, I starting building up some old friendships and doing the GAL. Tried to be less co-dependent. I noticed that when other people liked being around me or complimented me it sorta had an effect on my Ws attitude, in little tiny ways but it did.
I hit the gym - getting in pretty good shape - helped my confidence and she noticed.
That let me give my W some of the freedom she wanted. And I took some for myself.
My W also wants adventure. Because of our young kids that's a tough one for us. But one thing I've noticed if I plan "adventure" for the purpose of making her happy she feels pressure and obligation. It has to feel spontaneous or relaxed for her. So, right, how to plan something spontaneous - there's a question. I guess for me it meant tackling the attractive/confident things before trying to do something to spark the attraction.
Anyway, you're getting god advice. And you're in the right place. When you feel bad, maybe come here and journal some. You'll get some good feedback.
Sandi2, today is my 4 month anniversary on the board. So I went back and re-red my original posts. Hoswald, I was getting this same advice back then. There will be ups and downs, but after some work and some time I have more ups and fewer downs now. Feel free to vent in our general direction....
)
Sometimes, I had to almost take off running out of the building b/c I felt the air had been sucked up by some invisible object. It's horrible living in that condition and it's not always as simple as just making the choice not to be like that way. When you reach the point of wanting to literally "run", it has become rather serious. 
