The Roller Coaster Keeps on Rolling

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Denver -

Print this up:

Stop talking about the F-ing OM.


along those lines:

Stop F-ing talking about the OM.

Yes... she has me on eggshells. No doubt.

Really?



Re-read your own post about the last couple of days and point out when things started sliding south.

I told W that I believe that we have an opportunity that most couples do not... That someday we will be able to look back on what we have gone through and know that it made our M strong. That going through this will make our M stronger than we had ever hope that it would be.

That is beautiful...

and pressuring.

You're telling her what her future is going to be like, no choice on her part.

oh, AND:

I told W that I understood what she was saying. That I wasn't going to try and 'convince you' with words.

Conflicting.


Looking back Denver, you're success...came from enjoying the moments with her. Those moments build up over time.
Stop rushing it, and stop trying to convince her.

DB is right there is alot of good. Alot of it.

You need to assuage your own insecurities, not have her do it. Not be needy.
Take comfort in her actions, instead of needing her to re-confirm them.

At another point, I told W that maybe she should just reengage OM and figure out what she wants to do with that R before we consider anything else bw she and I.

I do not believe I have ever called anyone stupid here before.
Look Denver if it isn't advice you'd give, why take it yourself?

I immediately realized that I had reverted into some bad behavior. I apologized. I then told W that I was just upset and that i was feeling impatient with things. We talked a little, but W was clear upset and maybe even a little irritated.

The good? You recognized it and apologized for it.

The bad? She saw it, and your new Denver isn't as shiny. Willing to bet that alot of what followed was from her fear you're tricking her.

Consistency of change, until it is no longer change is your goal, because slip ups make them doubt you.


The OM and your wife.

As soon as you get used to the following idea the better off I think you will be.

Your wife and the OM had a relationship.
They had a relationship.
And when relationships die, it takes time to process them.
Anyone who hurries that up especially someone with a vested interest is poking a bear.

You have a vested interest. So you're trying to hurry her process along, instead of as hard as it is to do...comfort her, be there, you just want her to jump feet first into you and hurry the hell up.

So..lets say, you and your wife divorce, and you're all hurt and in pain, and lets say there is woman, who is glad it is over because she wants you to committ to her, be more than friends and can't understand why you still have feelings for your wife? Why can't you just get over her already?

How long you going to put up with her.

Funny thing is, even now, if my OM was hanging off a cliff? I might kick some dirt in his face before he fell.

But I am grateful, yeah that's f-ed up, he was there for her when I wasn't, and I am willing to bet Denver that besides that one point, you and I have similar feelings about the OM.

This isn't easy, it's never going to become easy. Easy is what got you here, you forget this path is hard, and your feet become bloody ribbons on the rocks.

I am beginning to wonder if it is possible that a R can just get so damaged that it can never be repaired.

Yup...

And I am confused. W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me.

Doesn't seem like your's falls into that category though.

[MrBond]

D,

It's perfectly natural for you to make the OM seem like a scumbag. But remember, your W was the one who made the decision to fall for it. She recognizes it was her choice and feels like the OM is a "victim" in all this.

More important than her looking at the OM like a d*ck is the fact that she should be more concerned about the pain she caused YOU. She has to express REMORSE for her actions. It seems like she's showing REGRET which is like saying, "hey I'm sorry I hurt you only because I was caught".

Remorse is when she's willing to alleviate your fears and insecurities and doesn't casually dismiss them. You were the hurt party and had to swallow alot of her sh*t when she was going out with the OM. I know the feeling. But in order for your M to truly heal, she has to understand, really understand from your POV how much you were hurt and empathize with you.

Have the two of you discussed MC or at the very least, reading about As and its affect on both of you?

[spellfire]

"do you want to go?" ... I responded, "do you want me to go?" ... W said 'sure!' ... I then said, "just want to make sure that you want me to go. I feel paranoid about smothering you."

Had to pull this part out. Try to be more decisive. This kind of wishy-washy temperature taking kills attraction. She wouldn't ask you if she didnt want you to. Take it at face value and just accept the invitation. You don't smother a woman by just being with her, you smother her with emotional dependency, constantly checking her temperature, and general passive agressiveness/approval seeking behavior.

[Denver_2010]

"do you want to go?" ... I responded, "do you want me to go?" ... W said 'sure!' ... I then said, "just want to make sure that you want me to go. I feel paranoid about smothering you."

Had to pull this part out. Try to be more decisive. This kind of wishy-washy temperature taking kills attraction. She wouldn't ask you if she didnt want you to. Take it at face value and just accept the invitation. You don't smother a woman by just being with her, you smother her with emotional dependency, constantly checking her temperature, and general passive agressiveness/approval seeking behavior.

Thanks Spellfire. You are absolutely correct. That's why I included that part of that conversation. I knew that I had messed up as soon as I had the conversation. That is how my entire week has gone and I KNOW that I am slipping in the confident and decisive part of things. It is so unlike me. I think that was my point with my last post. The insecurity of the R is beginning to really wear on me. I know that I shouldn't expect to be made to feel secure by W right now, but that doesn't make it any easier.

Thanks for checking in. I appreciate it.

BITS
Denver

[Paper]

Denver, I am far from any expert on this but after reading your whole post it seems you are giving her way too much of what she wants. She needs to feel your absence and lack of contact. It seems the DB principles would work well here to go more dark and let her need you. To want you once you are more gone. Now she has contact with you all she wants which is not good for her to feel the distance and need.

Just my 2 pennies.

[Denver_2010]

gr8 - W is not in contact with OM right now. My W is a professional vocalist with an entertainment company and a few different bands. OM is a horn player whom she works with on occasion. They were both at a recording session about a week and a half ago, and OM apparently was trying to avoid W. W felt badly about the situation, said that she felt horrible about hurting OM.

I agree. W is confused right now.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it.

Denver

[Denver_2010]

It's perfectly natural for you to make the OM seem like a scumbag. But remember, your W was the one who made the decision to fall for it. She recognizes it was her choice and feels like the OM is a "victim" in all this.

More important than her looking at the OM like a d*ck is the fact that she should be more concerned about the pain she caused YOU. She has to express REMORSE for her actions. It seems like she's showing REGRET which is like saying, "hey I'm sorry I hurt you only because I was caught".

In some ways you are correct. My W only feels regret bc she recognizes that she was 'careless' by starting to date while we were separated. She feels badly that she has hurt me, OM and SS by her decision that she acknowledges that wasn't well thought out.

W wasn't caught. W told me about 'dating' OM when we first began to talk about the possibility of reconciling. She didn't have to tell me and I probably would have never known. In some ways, I wish that she had chosen not to.

Remorse is when she's willing to alleviate your fears and insecurities and doesn't casually dismiss them. You were the hurt party and had to swallow alot of her sh*t when she was going out with the OM. I know the feeling. But in order for your M to truly heal, she has to understand, really understand from your POV how much you were hurt and empathize with you.

Have the two of you discussed MC or at the very least, reading about As and its affect on both of you?

We have been to 2 MC sessions so far. After hearing what W had to say at last session, MC suggested that we hold off on scheduling another until W is ready. W agreed, but told me later that she didn't want to go this week anyway bc it is her birthday... and next week I will be out of town for a trial. I hope that she is ready to go again after next week. We shall see.

Remorse? See above. W isn't remorseful for her decision. At least not in the way that you are talking about. To her credit though, she has been sensitive to my feelings about it. When she had to see OM at a recording session about a week and a half ago, she texted me that he was there, what he was doing while he was there, and when he left. She later texted me that I could ask 2 of her other co-workers about what she did while she was there if I had any doubt that I trusted her. I told her that I didn't need to do that and that I did trust her. But I did appreciate that she is thinking about my feelings and what I may be going through.

But she doesn't see her choice to date during S as an A. That isn't going to happen anytime soon. Quite frankly, I can deal with that part. It is not being able to feel secure in our R and knowing that OM is just in the background waiting that is killing me.

[Denver_2010]

Stop talking about the F-ing OM.

along those lines:

Stop F-ing talking about the OM.

I KNOW. I haven't brought it up since last Friday (april 1). W has brought him up the other times. I have only been listening to what she has to say and not responding to anything about OM. I have literally been biting my lip.

Yes... she has me on eggshells. No doubt.

Really?

Re-read your own post about the last couple of days and point out when things started sliding south.

When I started to show my wear and tear... my impatience and insecurity with the sitch. Right.

I told W that I believe that we have an opportunity that most couples do not... That someday we will be able to look back on what we have gone through and know that it made our M strong. That going through this will make our M stronger than we had ever hope that it would be.

That is beautiful...

and pressuring.

You're telling her what her future is going to be like, no choice on her part.

I know that it is, but it really seems that W is asking for, almost demanding, reassurance and validation as to why she should give our M another chance. Maybe not. Maybe you are right. F I don't know. And your statement below is correct too...

I told her that I wasn't going to try and convince her with words... and I tried to do just that.

It was a beautiful sentiment though...

I told W that I understood what she was saying. That I wasn't going to try and 'convince you' with words.

Conflicting.

Looking back Denver, you're success...came from enjoying the moments with her. Those moments build up over time.
Stop rushing it, and stop trying to convince her.

DB is right there is alot of good. Alot of it.

You need to assuage your own insecurities, not have her do it. Not be needy.
Take comfort in her actions, instead of needing her to re-confirm them.

That is exactly it. I am asking her for comfort and affirmation that everything is still moving forward as I would like it to. I know this. I knew it at the moments where I made the mistakes. I haven't been able to stop myself for the past week.

I think that maybe I need to try and post more here to get some of my emotions out.

And i am trying to rush it. When all of this went down in November, I set a goal of fixing M and getting W to move back into the home at the end of her 6 month lease. At that time, it looked like I would never meet that goal. But over the past 6 weeks, it started to look more and more like I'd make it just under the wire. NOW, it doesn't. And that is disappointing.

Should it be? No, probably not. It is just an artificial deadline. I need to recognize that and look at long term goals. Ok. Thanks Jack.

At another point, I told W that maybe she should just reengage OM and figure out what she wants to do with that R before we consider anything else bw she and I.

I do not believe I have ever called anyone stupid here before.
Look Denver if it isn't advice you'd give, why take it yourself?

Damn straight I deserve to be called stupid for that. Another moment where my mind was telling my mouth to shut the f*&k up ... it was like a car crash... everything moving in slow motion but I couldn't respond to what was coming out of my mouth fast enough.

I think that I dodged the bullet there though. I hope.

The OM and your wife.

As soon as you get used to the following idea the better off I think you will be.

Your wife and the OM had a relationship.
They had a relationship.
And when relationships die, it takes time to process them.
Anyone who hurries that up especially someone with a vested interest is poking a bear.

You have a vested interest. So you're trying to hurry her process along, instead of as hard as it is to do...comfort her, be there, you just want her to jump feet first into you and hurry the hell up.

So..lets say, you and your wife divorce, and you're all hurt and in pain, and lets say there is woman, who is glad it is over because she wants you to committ to her, be more than friends and can't understand why you still have feelings for your wife? Why can't you just get over her already?

How long you going to put up with her.

Not long. You are right... again.

This part...

"Your wife and the OM had a relationship.
They had a relationship.
And when relationships die, it takes time to process them.
Anyone who hurries that up especially someone with a vested interest is poking a bear."

Hurts like a mutherf*%cker... Sorry for the language DB. But that is the best way to express it.

I simply CANNOT understand and accept how W moved into another R so quickly after leaving me...

sometimes...

but other times... I do understand ... bc I know W's own insecurities and the hurt that I caused her.

How can I voice empathy for her feelings on this though?? Do I just pretend that I don't hate what has happened?? Sh!t should I invite the guy to dinner or send him here to these boards to get support??

Silence on the subject is the best that I can muster.

Funny thing is, even now, if my OM was hanging off a cliff? I might kick some dirt in his face before he fell.

That isn't all I would do Jack. But he would fall. You had me laughing out loud with this though. Thanks.

But I am grateful, yeah that's f-ed up, he was there for her when I wasn't, and I am willing to bet Denver that besides that one point, you and I have similar feelings about the OM.

This isn't easy, it's never going to become easy. Easy is what got you here, you forget this path is hard, and your feet become bloody ribbons on the rocks.

Why are you grateful that he was there for your W when you weren't Jack. I really want to understand this point of view. Bc you are exactly right when you say that we have similar feelings about the OM except for that one. I want to understand this.

I thought that I was past the shards of rock that would bloody my feet... I was wrong.

I am beginning to wonder if it is possible that a R can just get so damaged that it can never be repaired.

Yup...

And I am confused. W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me.

Doesn't seem like your's falls into that category though.

God I hope that you are right Jack.

As always, thanks Jack.
Denver

[JustStunned]

Denver, I wish I had something to add beside my support and prayers.

You've gotten very good advice.

Put it in to practice with patience. Difficult I know, but you've done this all before.

[rysmom]

could you come over to my thread and give me advice dmod. thanks