No more links to previous threads. No more looking back.
Thank you everyone for helping me get to this new level of awareness, self-confidence, personal effectiveness and fulfillment.
Last time we spoke Islander, TrueGrit, ZenGypsy and Mach1 had all been helping me craft a reply to my WAW who had sent me an email saying...
Quote:
So what are you thinking lately ?? Gonna sign the papers or drag things out?? I know your hopeful and all but you did say you would grant me my wish and we would remain friends!
Also you said I could have the motorcycle but then one day you said you couldn't come get your bike??
The weather is getting better and I would like to take lessons and save on gas to ride it to work but need the key and title or are you gonna not keep your word with that also?? I know we had some good times together and tough times but I want to only remember the good times and remain friends wanting us both to be happy!!
I will always love you and always remain your friend unless you do things to change that!
If you think the counseling will help me I'll do it but it would have to be next Monday around 445 on my way to work !
Based on my trusty adviser's recommendations, I sent her one email with a few short lines about scheduling her appointment as she stated, as well as not standing in her way pretty much exactly as Mach described.
Then I sent her a separate email with a few short lines about the motorcycle which is a separate matter.
I am feeling good about my response. I am feeling good she is coming back to the DB coaching table for a second round, I have no expectations for where any of it will lead...
And most importantly I am now moving on for myself and I am ready to explore what truly living for myself actually looks, sounds, smells, taste and feels like without being polluted by the fears of other people.
More to come. MUCH more.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
How does it really feel. Losing my home and family again.
Losing another woman. Losing the woman that I loved. Losing all my hopes and dreams. Losing everything that we believed in and truly deeply wanted. Together.
Now Never. Ever. Again.
How does that really feel. How are you feeling now? Now that everything you had is gone.
Right now I am feeling like I have lost another home and family, I have lost another amazing woman, because I was not fully present, responsible, focused and caring enough about myself and the people who I love to do ALL the work required to support us.
Instead I had my stories and excuses. Instead I had all my empty promises.
Instead I had a lot of pretty words that I never fully backed or even actually believed.
What happens when you "fake it 'til you make it?" You just end up being fake.
When I am just going through the motions trying to look good and have other people like me instead of actually doing the work so that my loved ones can rely on me...
When I feel so little self-esteem, so small and insecure and powerless that I can't even be honest with myself let alone my wife or anyone else I care about...
Then there is a problem.
Then I end poor and lonely. Then I end up without my wife, my best friend, my lover by my side.
Yes. It takes two to build a relationship. But it only takes one to totally destroy it. In my relationship with L----, In my relationship with R----, In my relationship with my kids...
I have done by far the lion's share of destruction. I was 100% at fault for the things I personally took on and failed to deliver. I let my wife down. I let her kids down. I let my kids down. Me. I did that. I did all of that myself.
And now I am alone again.
Michael here there is some truth. Maybe not the whole truth, but enough of the truth to remind me that my attitude needs to be adjusted...
I want you to remember this feeling and this moment the next time you do not feel like tackling the job at hand or doing the work that is required in order to support yourself and help take care of the people who you love.
I want you to remember this feeling when you are thinking of all the countless hours L---- logged in at work over the past four years while you were "trying" to build a business on your computer.
Just remember all of this, ok?
Remember how all of this loss and pain and agony and suffering and despair truly and deeply feels. Remember the intensity. Remember all the moments and opportunities you had.
Now think of another man bringing the bacon home to the woman who was once your wife.
Bringing HIS bacon all the home deep and intimately inside of her and the two of them coming and working together the way you always wanted to but again and again and again failed to deliver.
And now think of all the countless other men and women who actually bring home a paycheck every couple of weeks.
The people who do not soar through life on borrowed time in other people's fancy airplanes while borrowing gas money from their mother and pretending they're high flyers.
Remember you are just a simple gardner, Michael. A man who has always been so profoundly blessed yet once again got careless with his crop.
A man how failed to take care of business.
You did not make good decisions. You did not plan ahead. You did not do your daily maintenance and repair...
Just talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk.
Are ya done, son?
Will you remember this time?
Will you remember all of this tomorrow or today or tonight or the next time you just don't feel like doing it?
Or the next time you feel it isn't worth it?
Will I remember that I am worth it? Will I remember to care enough?
Do I care enough right now? Have I got myself some leverage now? Have I got some bigger reasons now? Have I got ENOUGH reasons and power now?
Am I ready to live well? Am I ready to be steady? Am I ready to be consistent? Am I ready to truly love? Am I ready to be real? Am I ready to be myself?
Yes.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
Was just thinking about Country's comment to me when I went over the top on one of my posts to him. He said "Whoa! Better put away the crack pipe, Busting!"
That made me laugh out loud especially since I saw that he was right so I figured I'd take it as a learning opportunity here on my thread rather than cluttering up his.
After my wife and I got married a yogi said to me:
"Beyond breaking bad habits is maintaining a good one. And beyond that is living in a constant renewal that deals with all habits good and bad to be habitually non-habitual- and that is the best of love and marriage."
Looking at my communication habits, the way I interact with people sometimes, often impulsive and emotional rather present and effective...
Gotta get that smack crackin' monkey off my back!!!
Today's new mantra:
"With every breath, I am the possibility of being aligned with my own Highest Power."
Pure. Natural. Free.
Wahe Guru.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Seriously, no offense taken. One of the best uses of this board is to let out the emotions we are feeling, rather than letting those emotions out in our real lives, creating much greater problems....
BITS
Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
After my wife and I got married a yogi said to me:
"Beyond breaking bad habits is maintaining a good one. And beyond that is living in a constant renewal that deals with all habits good and bad to be habitually non-habitual- and that is the best of love and marriage."
Sounds pretty smart, for a bear at Jellystone Park...
Feeling sad right now. Was feeling angry earlier. Uncertain before that. Today I also felt playful confident, connected, loving, helpful, peaceful, productive, effective...
Honest, genuine, happy...
Happy with myself.
It's all good. It's all God.
With every breath I am the possibility of being aligned with my own highest power.
Sweet dreams DBers.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
Hope you are feeling better today! Just wanted to stop by and check in!
YOU ROCK!!!
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
Not doing so great today. Now that I've signed the divorce papers it is really sinking in and hitting me harder than can be described.
And I think it's horrible - not at all comforting - to know that SO many other people over the years not just on these boards but every freakin' day everywhere are experiencing similar loss and pains in their relationships.
I really believed my wife when she said it was forever. I really trusted her to work with me through anything that came up.
I don't want to keep on going on about it and making myself feel even worse than I already do...
Don't want to continue feeling sad...
But go*damit I believed in her!!!
Well, it's just me and me, now.
Again.
"The pain isn't there to make you sad. The pain is there to make you more aware." - Osho
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
While I don't profess to know much about DBing, I was told that that D is just another title. It doesn't mean you have to stop DB. I think you have to stop thinking about promises made while you were together. That will just eat you up inside. Concentrate on you and what makes you happy. Once you reach that point, she will see it as well. YOU are what is important right now.
I have never heard the phrase "prayer list." Sounds powerful.
I'd like to ask you more about it, but if my question is too personal, of course you can refuse.
Is your prayer list simply a list of people you are praying for, or is there something more to it than that? How often, when, where do you pray? What feelings does it give you when you pray?
And how do you start? How do you finish? Is there a place or position you find best and like to stick to as part of a routine or ritual? Or is it something that works better for you whenever or wherever you feel a need?
I need more practice praying. In fact, just a few minutes ago at the gym, I was feeling that I really want to love and connect with people in more ways than I've doing. It sounds like having a prayer list might be a solid place to start.
In the past, I have usually only given lip service to my prayers, and haven't really spoken from my heart. I can see now that is another thing I need to immediately improve, starting with grace at every meal. Whereas I used to be tentative in my prayers, as the new and improved Alpha Male all I have to say about it now is that fortune favors the brave.
Dear God,
Thank you for the opportunity to hear You and Brian speak to me in a way that I could hear and in my time of need.
Thank you also for VS2D's winning ways and words as you and I both know the baseball metaphor hit home. Please help her find an expanded sense of your truth and her identity so that she can transcend being verysad2day.
God bless Country, and Zen and Mach and True for their recent attention and compassion to me and so many other people on these boards. I have been uplifted and given strength by their wisdom and companionship and for that I am truly grateful.
God please give a special blessing to all the moderators here whose tireless efforts often go unappreciated and unnoticed. Hold closest in your heart Virginia, DBmod, The Jake of Beans, and every other coach and moderator doing your work here on these boards.
And oh my God please continue to bless Michelle. Hold her, protect her, and continue to shower her with all your ever lovin' glory and abundance.
And God only You know as well as I know how important it is to me for you to continue to bless my family, my children and especially my L----.
She needs you now more than ever.
Ahh-men. Ahh-women.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
I'm sorry to hear that you are in a bad way. It's expected tho so don't beat yourself up and think if only...woulda, coulda, shoulda.
Brian is SO right. You can continue to DB even if you get the D. What can you do for YOU right now that will NOT be more of the same? You have done alot of work to get yourself healthier; mentally, physically. A D is just a stupid piece of paper. Are you going to let it define who Busting Mode is and has become? I know for me, I've worked too hard to let it define me and my STXH is the one who is missing out. If we had any contact other than financial stuff, he would be like who is this person. Having said that, I still try to let my actions shine thru in emails since that's how he chooses to communivate with me. I am always suggesting and/or recommending things instead of being the control freak I was. I ask for HIS recommnedations or suggesstions now too. Not sure if he's noticing, but it feels good to ME that I see I respond in a different way and it doesn't feel forced.
You will get thru this small, bump in the road. You have to come to the point where you understand that the M you have known is dead and gone. That can be a positive because it wasn't working. Now you can possibly reconnect with yourself and who BM really is and maybe with Beckie. She may think she is controlling the D and you, but YOU are in the drivers seat of YOUR life. No one steers that but you.
It's Friday and I hope you are going to enjoy your weekend.
YOU ROCK!
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
Zen your words are so inspiring and your timing is impeccable!
You are an AMAZING woman!
Thank you for being YOU!
You are very kind Busting....
Enjoy your weekend and stay the course my friend.
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
A prayer list is a list of people that I pray for everyday. I really don't have a set time to pray, I just do it whenever I have a few minutes...Like if I am driving from point A to B. I haven't turned my radio on in a month! It's also a great time to be silent and let God speak to you. Since I've started walking to lose weight, I pray during my walks. No need for an IPOD when you have God to talk to!
When I pray, I just tell God what I feel in my heart. I lift up my concerns to him. One of my motto's is "Let Go and Let God". It reminds me that I don't have to face anything alone and that God will always provide. When you are hurting, lift that up to God and he will give you peace.
Nothing is too personal for me on this board. My goal is to gain skills that will enable me to be a better person (for me) and am willing to do anything to get there. My other goal is to be a positive influence on others and to encourage and support. You can ask me anything and I will answer.
A prayer list is a list of people that I pray for everyday. I really don't have a set time to pray, I just do it whenever I have a few minutes...Like if I am driving from point A to B. I haven't turned my radio on in a month! It's also a great time to be silent and let God speak to you. Since I've started walking to lose weight, I pray during my walks. No need for an IPOD when you have God to talk to!
When I pray, I just tell God what I feel in my heart. I lift up my concerns to him. One of my motto's is "Let Go and Let God". It reminds me that I don't have to face anything alone and that God will always provide. When you are hurting, lift that up to God and he will give you peace.
Nothing is too personal for me on this board. My goal is to gain skills that will enable me to be a better person (for me) and am willing to do anything to get there. My other goal is to be a positive influence on others and to encourage and support. You can ask me anything and I will answer.
Brian...re-read what you justed posted to Busting....
You are on your way more than you think! NICE job!
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
Just making a quick note here to remind myself that my redemption for 30 years of mistakes and poor decisions can now be found in staying on course everyday towards achieving my 60 day goal.
Doing this do-able thing I have now set out to do will give me back all my confidence and more. It will restore my power, my swagger, my mojo, my juice, my thirst, my joy...It will give me the freedom of full expression, self-respect, validation... and the best chance in the world of healing myself, being truly, deeply, madly, profoundly, absolutely congruently and consistently balls to bone happy with myself...It will finally give me the time and space and grace and freedom to start building awesome new relationships with everyone I love...
And as a side benefit, it will undoubtedly make me the brightest and most attractive flame in the eyes of my True Love.
Just putting it out there as a reminder to me and God.
60 days.
Actually, it's 67 days until May 25th when I stand triumphant on the top of my Mount Everest. So I've got one extra week of preparation before my 60 day blitz.
Hey! Ho! Let's go!!!
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
WAW is waiting for the divorce papers I have signed. I have not yet sent them but told her that I would. I have been debating whether or not to include a letter when I mail the papers to her on tuesday. She is scheduled for a DB session by herself on monday.
She hasn't heard from me in a couple of days and just sent me this message:
----------
Hey Michael how are you? Are you mad at me? Or just dealing with us in your way? Hope your ok? Love Beckie
-------
Not sure what to make of it or how I might respond. at first I was thinking of admitting I am angry because that is how I am truly feeling and it's a feeling we rarely show each other...
But I'm not really sure what to say.
Think I'll just try sitting with it for awhile, but if anyone has any insight or suggestions I'll wash your car for you!
Mike
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
leave out the disappointed part. She already knows that. But, who am I to give advice? I can't seem to get this right. Small daily goal reached: No phone call or text.
me:51 H: 48 No kids together M:14 years seperated:Ask him to GET OUT 3/21/11 Piecing 09/14
I'm thinking how Mach asked me the other day something about what do I need to say vs. what do i want to say.
My need is to to be the best husband I can be.
Right now it appears my wife is feeling so uncertain about her life she is needed to walk away on our life in hope of finding some kind of peace or certainty within herself.
I feel I need to tell her that right now I am here for her, though we can't really help each other until we re-establish trust and show some kind of desire and ability to work together.
I feel that no matter where it leads it is a healthy step she is taking by talking to our counselor, and I would rather not risk either of us saying or doing anything to upset each other before she has had that call.
What do you think?
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
I dont think you should respond to her at all. SERIOUSLY. She wanted you to sign the papers. You did. She is waiting for them. She is obviously VERY confused "love Beckie". What does she know about love right now. I think more than anything, she is questioning what her life is going to be like without you, and she wrote those words to vet a response out of you so she knows that you are still there for her. But she already knows that. Let her go to the counseling session and see what happens after that. You may have a long weekend ahead of you, but don't let your fear of not doing something change YOUR course. JMO, I seem to have a problem taking my own advice.
BITS
M:34 W:28 SD:9 D:6 (pr) M:3 T:6 Separated 1/16/11 ILYBNILWY 10/25/10 PA discovered 11/12/10, began about 10/1/10
I am not who I was, I am being remade, I am new...
She is obviously VERY confused...Let her go to the counseling session and see what happens after that...don't let your fear of not doing something change YOUR course.
Thanks Islander
Originally Posted By: cat04
Busting,
With you, I have seen extreme highs and really low lows.
Busted!
Originally Posted By: cat04
You have to try to stabilize yourself a bit...
Try to find a bit of balance.
Thank you for that, Cat.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Practice not touching the hot stove for a while.
It isn't that hard, you just have to force yourself sometimes.
That was very well put.
Admittedly, I have come up with 100 different variations of how I could respond, and it interfered with my sleep last night.
She has also made a request for me to send the keys for the Harley I have given her, so I MIGHT respond and tell her something about that, but if I say anything at all, it will not be until Sunday night.
We'll see how I feel about it tomorrow night.
Thank you so much for helping me get back to neutral and stabilize myself.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Okay despite this new development right now I am still feeling really good about myself and surprisingly in control.
Given all the personal work I have done over the years I have no idea why it is surprising that I am feeling in control, but there you have it.
Right now I am also thinking there are at least 5 major things that have happened in the past 4 months since Beckie first said she wanted a divorce.
Even by itself, any single one of these things could potentially make all the difference in the world to our relationship, but for whatever reason I have not yet been unable to share with her.
So I'm just gonna bullet point them here for future reference, and know that I will still be able to tell her at some point in the future.
I do know I am no longer feeling afraid or insecure about the divorce actually going through, and to me that is a VERY good sign of the confidence and self-respect I am regaining.
Here's the facts I have seen that Beckie is not aware of:
1. I am now earning enough income where I can pay all of our monthly expenses myself and she never has to work again unless she really wants to. (She doesn't yet know I am earning that much money, though she recently said it wouldn't make a difference if I was).
2. Our counselor has helped me identify and transcend the debilitating beliefs about my self-worth that were not only affecting my ability to satisfy my wife in the ways that she desired, it had affected every relationship that I had ever been in with every other woman, too. With that out of the way, I am free to be me, and to naturally be an even more passionate and attentive lover like she has always wanted me to be.
3. The divorce cry was a massive wake-up call for me.
4. We have both increased our levels of confidence in ourselves and are both holding higher standards, too.
5. The whole fiasco with customs and immigration and has helped make me a lot more caring and responsible about the things that matter most.
6. I have realized it is not that we don't fit togwther or that we cannot come together, the problem has been that we have both been UNWILLING to work together.
7. I have become a cutely aware that sometimes she's insecure and I am stubborn, sometimes I'm insecure and she is stubborn. And awareness can be curative.
8. I have realized how much I truly love and adore her.
9. I have learned a lot about respecting her feelings, hearing her desires, and trusting her intuition.
10. I am feeling much better about myself, and wow, once again surprisingly, somehow even more "in love" with her.
How that can be I really have no idea, I just know it's how I feel. I truly want her to be happy, and I know that she must do this in order to be truly happy and at peace within herself.
I have control.
I know I am her man.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
So it looks like I am now being invited to step up to a whole new level of awareness here. Right now I'm feeling really great and I'm also very excited about the possibilities and doors that are now being opened for me...so I'd love to hear what you all think.
Especially if there is any 2x4s or bricks or pricks out there that could potentially burst my bubble!
So once again, here was wife's last message to me:
Quote:
Hey Michael how are you? Are you mad at me? Or just dealing with us in your way? Hope your ok? Love beckie
And now here is the latest version of the response I am planning to send Beckie later on this evening:
----
Hey,
I'm not mad at you at all. You totally have my blessing and support to do whatever you need to do to feel whole and happy within yourself. How are you and the kids?
Michael
------------
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Thought I had it all figured out there for a minute.
"What is my purpose in communicating that she has my blessing, friendship and support?"
Wow.
Interestingly enough, I'm finding that in some ways I am actually in agreement with her choice. Or at least I was until I read your post.
A few minutes ago I could clearly see how it kind of made sense that she was leaving me to feel more true and whole and happy within herself.
That made some kind of sense to me because I felt it was very similar to my need go away and work all those times doing what I felt I needed for myself in order to be whole and happy within myself.
But know you have given me a completely different view. And it feels really strange because I'm almost afraid to even acknowledge it, but I'm starting to think the difference between me and her is, I never even considered leaving our marriage, breaking my promises to her, or totally abandoning her to get my needs fulfilled.
Granted it may very well have appeared to her that way, but for me the truth is the moment we got married I was committed to her for life.
Well now I'm confused again, thank you very much.
But that's a true thank you, True, because when I am confused I know it means I'm about to learn something new.
You think I should totally ignore her communication, refuse to agree to a co-petition for divorce, and let her serve me legally for divorce?
Here's my insecurity coming through now True, please don't leave me hangin' here. Tell me what you think I should do. Not that I am certain I will do it, I just really value your opinion and the opinions of other folks on this board.
Taking a hard line approach with my wife is definitely something I have considered, as opposed to "loving her the way she is asking to be loved" and acting solely on the belied that "if you love something set it free"
Hmmm. I wonder if their is some kind of unconscious fearful pattern or habit here that I could help her to be free of and still have her as my happily married wife...
My goodness this is hard!!!
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
An hour later and now I'm back to where I was before TrueGritter said anything. Now I'm once again feeling the best thing I can do is be supportive and make it easier for her to leave. That's the way she is telling me she wants to me to show my love for her right now.
Jesus this is hard.
But thankfully we have Cat:
Originally Posted By: cat04
Busting,
With you, I have seen extreme highs and really low lows.
You have to try to stabilize yourself a bit.
...Try to find a bit of balance.
Practice not touching the hot stove for a while.
It isn't that hard, you just have to force yourself sometimes.
Okay. It's not that hard to keep my hand off of the stove. It's not that hard to slow way down and protect myself from being burned or hurt.
LTFU meets STFD
Lighten The F*ck Up Slow The F*ck Down.
I have control. I'm a good man. I deserve to be happy and calm and clear within myself.
And now I have absolutely no problem at all taking whatever time I need to figure out whatever is best for me. No matter what I have promised others, or what others have promised me.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Just found this little gem on one of TG's threads...
Originally Posted By: Truegritter
I posting this here and in MLC because there is some GREAT advice getting pulled up from older posts...
That got lost with the passage of time.
I am not putting this here to start a debate because as I have reconciled all this against my own experience I find we all are really saying the same advice and have the same goal ...
Help the LBS find their way.
In hopes of clarifying...at least the way I see it:
MLC (fog) vs WAS
And…Bo Peep doesn’t work.
Leave them alone and they’ll come home. Patiently wait until they decide to come back?
Denial? Yup.
But not the way it's been descibed in the past IMO.
Denial that you are afraid to look in the mirror and answer the question.
Is my W leaving because she can’t stand me or
She can’t stand herself.
Most likely WAS is the former or maybe it runs along a continuum.
SO if you think all the man up tactics you try….the “don’t put up with crap behavior” tactic is going to change anything…
You want your W to respect you? You are entitled to it? Why?
Look at the man you were in your M. Before she decided to disrespect you.
NOW you are going to try tactics to show her she should respect you.
NOW your respect is measured by demanding she respect you and how she reacts or doesn’t react to your demands?
You’re Bo Peeping.
If I do this…she will respect me. What if she doesn’t? Where are you?
Unless you have the courage to look in the mirror and be honest with yourself then you will be the victim of your W’s decision to leave you and her continued choice not to come back to you.
Until you respect yourself… she won’t respect you.
She thinks its Holloween and you got your “I am not a lazy, a$$hole, fill in the ______ husband” costume on.
Manning up ain’t got anything to do with HER. Your NUTS are not a function of her. You are not entitled to her respect unless you deserve it.
Don’t get me wrong I believe in boundaries I just think they are tools to help you gain your sanity and find your way.
In the end, you should not attach your self worth or respect to how someone respects your boundaries.
They will or they won’t and then you live with the consequences. Both of you.
MLC? Crisis?
Does it exist? I don’t care if anyone thinks it exists. I know that some people have emotional/spiritual/inner conflict crisis in their life.
Some people in crisis might have a mental disorder that IS recognized by mental health professionals. So call it what you want. It is a challenge in your M.
Is it an excuse for bad behavior?
No.
Is it a reason?
Yup.
Are some LBS in denial? Yes. Unfortunately, they are here on each of the boards on this forum.
MLC vs WAS ----> Answer the question for yourself. Is your S leaving because they can’t stand YOU or THEMSELVES? Or somewhere in between? Are they engaging in self destructive behavior? There is a difference.
What if Little Bo Peep was a real b!tch and didn’t feed or take care of her sheep? Would they come home? Even if she went to look for them and tried to put a fence around them. Would they stay under those conditions?
Is it (crisis) an excuse to be in denial… not to see it for what it is and not to look at oneself?
Absolutely not.
The first advice given in MLC is no different than anywhere else:
Live your life, look in the mirror and be honest with your own failures, you can’t control another person, only yourself. Detach. Protect yourself legally, financially and emotionally and live your life like they are not coming back.
In the end, your success is defined by your choices and how they align with your core. If your S wants to be with THAT person.
Then your M has a shot.
If not, then you can live your life without them and call yourself a success regardless of their choice.
Now let me repeat that last just to be sure I've got it...
Originally Posted By: Truegritter
The first advice given in MLC is no different than anywhere else:
Live your life, look in the mirror and be honest with your own failures, you can’t control another person, only yourself. Detach. Protect yourself legally, financially and emotionally and live your life like they are not coming back.
In the end, your success is defined by your choices and how they align with your core. If your S wants to be with THAT person.
Then your M has a shot.
If not, then you can live your life without them and call yourself a success regardless of their choice.
Truckin' Got my chips cashed in Keep truckin' Like the doodah man Together, more or less in line, Just keep truckin' on...
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
You think I should totally ignore her communication, refuse to agree to a co-petition for divorce, and let her serve me legally for divorce?
Bust she is going to want it either way I am afraid.
Originally Posted By: Busting
And now I have absolutely no problem at all taking whatever time I need to figure out whatever is best for me. No matter what I have promised others, or what others have promised me.
This is good advice to give yourself.
I am not telling you to sign or not sign the petition. Like I said before if she wants it she will get it this way or the hard way.
The hard way IMO is you fighting her tooth and nail and where is that going to get YOU?
Protect yourself. Legally. Financially and emotionally.
You can do that without being an a$$hole.
I say choose what is best for YOU.
I think it is good that you see that you cannot control her and can let her go and do what she wants.
That doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
She thinks you're mad at her because what she is doing she knows is wrong.
At least wrong in the sense that she is your W and is the one breaking her promise.
You are not obligated to relieve her of this guilt. It is hers not yours.
Ignore her if you feel that is best for you. Or talk to her calmly and without trepidation.
I would not talk about your feelings with her or R or anything that doesn't involve necessities about your kids.
She knows that you don't want this D.
When you lay down your guns she can't fight you anymore. That is for YOU not her.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
By not agreeing to the D, atleast now, you will buy yourself a little more time. You need to decide if that is what you need, and only you can decide that.
BITS
M:34 W:28 SD:9 D:6 (pr) M:3 T:6 Separated 1/16/11 ILYBNILWY 10/25/10 PA discovered 11/12/10, began about 10/1/10
I am not who I was, I am being remade, I am new...
I doubt this will make you feel any better, but with the way it was setup, you asking her to go, her not asking on her own, I doubt the session would have done much anyways.
Words are not going to penetrate her right now. It is all action. They notice it more than you thing. DO IT. Don't SAY IT.
BITS
Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
Another sleepless night, especially since she emailed me back a little while later thanking me for the session and saying she wants to attend after all:
"Thanks things do feel weird now not sure what's going on with me but I do hope the session helps me sort things out!! Hope all is well with you! I worry about you! Glad your not mad at me I just feel this is what needs to be at this time and hoping to not regret it!! Love you always forever friends beckie"
So we're back to limbo land and rollercoasters but every day I'm getting stronger and taking better care of me. I'm learning to detach and rise above the drama. I'm learning to be direct, open and honest with other people. I am learning to be myself.
I am aligned with my true nature and everything is everything.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Just caught up. I'm not very active on the weekends.
I have to tell you that I came across a reaffirmation of sorts in a book that I am re-reading again. This may help you in understanding where Beckie's thoughts may be generating from. It indicated that sometimes people need to D and live seperate lives for a while in order for them to heal and possibly see what they have lost. A seperation for some is not enough distance. My C told me this is because the WAS still feels to immeshed (spelling?).
It sounds like she is starting to realize that she does have some accountability in this whole mess just like you do. She is at least willing to listen to what the DB Coach says which is a good thing. I'm sure she is scared to possibly face her own demons. Us LBS's know how hard that is but once you get over the hurdle and you realize the heaviness dissipates it's the most amazing start of the journey at least IMHO.
And remember...you have already started the journey and it doesn't matter how or why you did. The most important thing is you did it for YOU! Keep that going so that you can continue to represent and present yourself better every day.
Please let us know how things went!
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
I agree with everything in your post and am preparing for the possibility of her being one of those people who needs to fully extract herself to get some fresh perspective.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
So the good news is she showed up for her appointment yesterday and reported back her progress. Here is what she wrote in an email to me this morning:
----------
Hey
Not sure how I feel about the session she really kinda annoyed me but we really didn't have enough time to finish the talk! What did you get out of your sessions?
I think I was already cranky bc I was tired and feeling overwhelmed with work Kids and home lately work has been super freaking busy so it probably wasn't the best time to talk for the first time!!
Thx for the package you sent the kids. <Son 8> was really excited and enjoyed it immensely did you already send the papers too??
Well guess I'll talk to you later I'm off work tomorrow then back for one more on Wed. We leave Thursday for Florida I'm ready for a break !!! Luv ya
-------------------
And more good news is I spent hours crafting a really heartfelt response to her this morning...and didn't send it!
I think that is awesome progress for me taking the time to think before I act. I am SO grateful to have this forum!
So what do you think of her email, and how might you recommend that I respond?
With this small victory behind me I am now looking forward to relaxing a little bit and spending more time on other people's threads.
Cheers to all and please tell me how you think or feel I should respond.
Thanks.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Ditto to True! Very nice work Busting Mode! Your DB skills shined thru in that response.
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
Finding myself ever so slightly slipping today - not that I have done anything stupid or anything - just that I'm noticing my mind spending to much time listening to fearful thoughts and not enough believing powerful thoughts, so I figured I'd better take a little break and neutralize here for awhile.
Haven't heard back from Beckie yet after she asked me what I got out of the sessions, I'm thinking I MIGHT call her on her way to work in a few hours, haven't decided for sure on that or not...
Mostly I just want to capture and remember some of the more empowering thoughts and feelings I've been having lately. Like actually believing she's every bit as lucky, if not even luckier to have me than I am to have her.
Feels a little strange to me saying it like that, but the fact is I am feeling and doing WAY better for myself when I just keep on focusing on the great things I am doing and NOT checking my emails or her facebook updates every 20 minutes.
Gotta keep my head and heart out of the dangerous space.
SO what's true and awesome and wonderful and STUPENDOUS LIKE STUPENDOUS MAN is the awesome work I've got going on in my business right now.
Oh my gosh I'm so excited to see what will unfold even in the next few weeks. I mean I've been working on this stuff for years and I have no doubt now I'm mere inches from the motherload.
Ahhhh. That feels better.
Keep up!
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Patience is...waiting to see positive change, after you have positioned yourself for a positive outcome.
Patience is but one skill in the toolbox. We have to use the tools we have while acquiring and developing new ones.
My biggest challenge is positioning myself for success and evaluating if I have done so.
Thank you, Just. That was exactly what I needed to hear right now.
So Dr. Seuss once wrote a book called "My Many Colored Days"... For me, today is feeling awfully gray.
Just got off the phone with Beckie. We actually chatted for a good 30 minutes, but it really felt like all the sparks are long, lost and far away gone for her.
The worst part of it is, I am starting to feel a real loss of passion for her, as well. For me it has now been almost 5 months of daily DBing, and now we're closer to the divorce than when we started.
And although she is saying the last thing in the world she wants right now is to start a new relationship, I'm sure dating is just around the corner for her, and then I'm gonna have all those feelings to deal with as well...
<greatest of sighs>
Good news is, I was just over there on Country's thread again and said I'd post my goals, and thinking of that makes me want to b*tch-slap (AWESOME! I have never used that word before!) my negative mind and tell it to stop it's whining.
Just observe and state what it is. Be neutral. Gather information. Assess. Evaluate. Decide.
So to balance what I fear, here is what I want:
1. Ultimate Personal Goal: I am netting $24,000 per month on May 25th, 2011 2. Next Personal Milestone Towards My Goal: Finish marketing piece.
3. Ultimate Relationship Goal: An outdoor wedding ceremony on Georgian Bay August 9th, 2011 4. Next Relationship Milestone Along The Way: A commitment to get together and have some fun sometime next month.
So I've got my negative mind trying to protect me, telling me to bail out so that I don't get any more pain...
I've got my positive mind serving up creative possibilities, trying to get me feeling pleasure...
And I've got my neutral mind asking what is real, and reminding me of my purpose.
Right now my purpose is still to be the very best husband I can be.
So my decision is I need to call her and tell her that in the morning. For me.
Right now she appears distant but not completely unresponsive...I'm feeling I need to try reeling her back in a little and see where it might lead.
'twas a hard day today.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Pounded the following into my keyboard. after I had read it...
-----------------
Okay okay okay God stick a fork in me I'm done I get it!!!
I didn't hear her needs! I didn't listen! I wasn't there for her! I didn't appreciate her! I simply wasn't doing it for her even though I knew and even though she even kept on telling me over and over and over again! And still I didn;t get it even though I knew it! I knew! I know! I know I know I know I know!
WHAT NOW!?
Lord Oh Lord please help me be that better man and friend she needs right now!
Please help us find our way back into each other's arms!
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
Just got off the phone with Beckie. We actually chatted for a good 30 minutes, but it really felt like all the sparks are long, lost and far away gone for her.
The worst part of it is, I am starting to feel a real loss of passion for her, as well. For me it has now been almost 5 months of daily DBing, and now we're closer to the divorce than when we started...
So to balance what I fear, here is what I want...
4. Next Relationship Milestone Along The Way: A commitment to get together and have some fun sometime next month.
...Right now she appears distant but not completely unresponsive...I'm feeling I need to try reeling her back in a little and see where it might lead.
'twas a hard day today.
SHAZAM!!! Abra Cadabra! As we speak, so we create! Instant manifestation!
This morning all I have to say is...
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF CLEAR GOALS!!!
Last night I noticed I was teetering on the brink of despair. I remembered there is always a choice about the meaning that I give to things. I immediately put myself in a more positive frame of mind, and set myself another goal.
"Get together with Beckie in April"
Within 2 hours of setting that goal, Beckie and I were planning a caribbean rendezvous together for sometime in April! It was awesome we were laughing and joking about it and now she's all talkative and excited!
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF CLEAR GOALS!!!
This is another awesome win for me. Another example of her turning. Even if she decides not to go, I've definitely got her thinking about us again and smiling.
And more importantly I am smiling too because I'm believing she's gonna come and have some fun!
Woo Hoo!
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
That is great news, Busting! W wanting to travel with you is very positive. Keep the pressure off her but allow her to stay committed to the plans. Keep it up, man. You are doing awesome!
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
Hey my friend - just checking in to see how you are doing!
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
Took a little hiatus from the boards for awhile. Had some things that I wanted to focus on doing for myself that were...more important than DBing.
Yeah. And in so doing I discovered some things that are even more important to me than "winning" back my wife or "saving my marriage."
Last weekend I attended a personal development workshop called The Landmark Forum. It is something I have been wanting to do for years and finally got the opportunity to attend.
True to it's billing, the experience was transformative. Without question a landmark, a milestone, a turning point in my life. The forum has been described as "an inquiry into the realm of possibilities". So if an expanded world view with unlimited possibilities is something that sounds appealing to you, then I highly recommend you check it out for yourself.
During the forum, many new possibilities arose for me, and now, even a week later, things just keep on getting clearer, and more and more doors are opening.
During the forum, we explored the value of our words, and the power our words have to create and define our world. We saw the depth and impact of the meaning that we give to things, and how those meanings determine our course of action. We also learned how to let go of meanings that no longer serve us.
For example, before attending the forum I had two beliefs that were simply fatal to having any kind of healthy, long-term relationship.
The first belief was that women can't be trusted. And the second belief was that...I am always right.
Yeah. No wonder I am here.
I am so grateful for that insight. Now, I am being the possibility of "a clearing" in all of my relationships. I am being the possibility of enjoying an authentic relationship with L---- whether we get divorced or not. I am being the possibility of a transformation in myself and in our marriage, no matter what she decides.
Life is good. More later.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
On my walk this morning, I finally, fully shifted my focus.
I went from thinking "what is most important to her" and "what is she, wanting, needing, doing (and the dreaded 'who is doing her')to "what is most important to me."
I remembered that months ago I had already decided if I am going to be in a committed relationship, then:
I need a partner I completely trust. I need a partner who is able to keep her promises to me. I need a partner who I can work with and who is able to be happy with herself and her decisions even when things don't go as she expected.
And now I will add that I need a partner who knows the value of her word and how having a healthy relationship with anyone requires the ability to keep your word.
So it's been more than ten days since I have heard from the WAW. Ten days ago we talked about going away on vacation together sometime in April. Ten days ago she wrote "I'll figure it out and let you know" and "I will email you during my trip."
What happened was she got home from her trip 2 days ago. She still has not sent me an email.
Never mind for a moment that she has broken her marriage promises to me, she has not even kept the promise of sending me an email. Were it an isolated incident, it wouldn't be a problem. But I now see it as a repeating pattern and for me it is not workable. It does not fit with what I want for myself, for my life, for my marriage, it doesn't even fit what I want for her.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
12 days and no word from the WAW, yet I am feeling solid. No fear. Even she now has my signature on the divorce papers and she can file them any moment.
I'm still missing her like crazy, and still wavering more often than I would like between the possibility of being with another woman someday, and the possibility of never being with anyone else again unless it is my "Beckie".
Kinda weird but I'm really liking the idea of never being with anyone else, and just loving this one woman truly well for the rest of my life, giving myself over to loving her completely without ever expecting anything in return...
I know it's a pretty high ideal...
And yet the possibility persists and continues to feel good...
Best of all I am absolutely in the moment. Right now I have no decisions pressuring me, no actions I feel compelled to take.
Just fully enjoying my days, and waiting to see her next move.
Life is beautiful!!!
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
I have been off the baords for a bit myself. I wanted to stop by and see how you were doing. SOunds like you are really working on self-growth. That is HUGE; plain and simple.
Enjoy this time to yourself and for yourself!
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
okay so I've identified how my financial instability and my lack of confidence has directly impacted my wife.
so today I have a question and am once again asking for your help.
it has now been two weeks since I have heard from her. she has the signed divorce papers in her hand, could file at any moment.
right now she appears confused about what to do.
I am torn between continuing to wait until she initiates communication, or if I should break the silence with an offer of child support such as this message I am considering sending her today:
-----------
Baby I think this is the longest we have ever gone without speaking and I have no idea where you are at right now, so if this message comes across as being forceful that isn't the intent..
While I want to respect your need for time and space, I am also eager to support you and the kids every way I can.
For starters, here is a copy of an ad I ran in Craigslist recently. I will be forwarding you some of the responses I received. There are no strings attached to this and I will continue paying for it even if you file. Just let me know which one you want to hire.
Michael
--------
I was then going to forward her the applications I received and let her decide which one she wants. she has no idea I have done any of this.
what do you think?
send the letter or continue waiting until she initiates some kind of communication, whatever it may be?
Baby I think this is the longest we have ever gone without speaking and I have no idea where you are at right now, so if this message comes across as being forceful that isn't the intent..
While I want to respect your need for time and space, I am also eager to support you and the kids every way I can.
For starters, here is a copy of an ad I ran in Craigslist recently. I will be forwarding you some of the responses I received. There are no strings attched to this and I will continue paying for it even if you file. Just let me know which one you want to hire.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
here's a copy of the ad I ran in craigslist. I had offered her this several weeks ago but I think she felt it wasn't possible to find someone.
I have now received several applications in response to this ad, however I want to appear to my wife as helpful not pursuing and certainly not desperate.
Here's the ad:
Mother's Helper
Date: 2011-04-05, 5:52AM MDT
I am looking for a reliable woman with her own vehicle to help look after my 2 kids in Longmont.
I work nights as a nurse, and usually know my schedule 2 months in advance, so I can give you a fixed schedule of when I will need your help.
My daughter is 14, and my son is 9. Your duties will include making them dinner, making sure they do their homework, reading with my son at night, and occassionaly driving them to school, the rec center and karate.
Let me know if you are interested and we can talk more about the details.
Thanks Mach, I'm leaning towards just continuing to wait for her, but I am also more aware than ever how my previous failures to support her have really impacted how she feels about me.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
this is a service for her. I am not even in the country. it is something I offered to her on March 9th and here was her response:
------------
Thanks for the caring thoughts and offer to help! Of course D14 is against anything that has to do with you but I'm sure it still means something to her that you are thinking of her and trying to help her out! How was your (counseling) session?? Are you going to sign the (divorce)papers? I'm at work but you can email or try to call later if you'd like or call in am when I'm on my way home.
----
neither one of us said anything more about it at the time.
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
I'm speechless. You've nailed it for me. I am still trying to control everything especially in my thoughts.
And I even did write a book on knowing what to do in every possible scenario - ironically it is called "Set Yourself Free."
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comment. And especially your saying "please" at the end.
It demonstrates a depth of character and compassion in your response that I feel I am often giving lip service to in my communications, but not really demonstrating at the levels I am capable of.
That is not to say I am judging myself as being wrong or bad. It is only acknowledging there is still a lack of integrity showing up in my words and actions. A lack of congruence that makes things unworkable in my life.
Yet I know I'm on the path. I take an enjoyable amount of time tuning in and connecting with God / Nature every morning, I meditate and balance my chakras daily, and I am now being in the moment, now being fully present, and now being more aware of the possibilities - without all the attachments I used to have to "being right".
What I am working on is putting down the playbook. Being fully in the game. Being a stand for myself and others. Lightening up, relaxing and having fun.
Again, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comments because it seems there is another door you have opened up for me here. "Get centered so I can actually settle on my goals and actions for awhile." Yes. That is a big part of what I am up to now.
Being true to me no matter what anybody else believes.
Letting go of thoughts and feelings that do not serve me. Especially all my fears and desires to not only control the outcomes, but also my thoughts and feelings! Like a snake going round and round and round swallowing it's own tail!
But now I feel there is a centering, a balance, an "at home-ness", a sense of grace available to me that I have not fully embraced before. Now, in harmony with God/Love/Nature/Creation everything is clear and anything is possible.
In harmony with God. That is, in harmony with the Generating, Organizing, Delivering and Destroying principles of the universe.
There are some rules that can be broken. There are some rules that can be bent. And there are some things - MOST THINGS! that I simply can't do anything about.
With all that being 95% of God's will, and with all my 5% of free will, I know I have the option of either resisting or accepting.
What I resist persists. What I accept I can eliminate. And continue moving on.
As a conscious co-creator, I know I have the option of being happy no matter what! There is always a choice! So how do I get this elephant mind out of my living room and really lighten up and let things go however they are gonna go? How do I lighten up, be free and laugh far more easily and often?
How do I know when to hold up, know when to fold up, know when to walk away, and know when to run?
(Somewhere in the darkness. The Gambler he broke even.)
I am being the possibility of:
1) Integrity 2) Loving myself completely. 3) Things flowing naturally between us, without any fear or attachment to the outcome.
