Alamo....Someone wise on these boards made an analoy about the WAS which has stuck with me and that is consider them like lost luggage. And this is my 2 cents....they have to get to their place in their own way and time.
Your W reminds me of my STXH. He has always put the blame on me. I destroyed everything while HE was the one who did everything to save the M. Interestingly enough, as my D gets closer, more and more people keep telling me how they feel my STXH is going to have a very diff emotional perspective of things. It poses a curious question since he hasn't shown ANY remorse for his decisions in the last year.
I think you have the right perspective Alamo and I commend you for setting those boundries etc.
BITS
M: 48, H: 42 Kids: 0 T: 20 yrs M: 16 yrs. (H's 1st, my 2nd) WAS/MLC: 12/7/09-I'm not the wife HE deserved Came home per L: 12/26/09, Left again: 2/6/10 Served: 10/21/10, D FINAL: 6/15/11
My post last night was timmed where it fell through the crack, I guess. Don't know why unless I took too long.
Quote:
For me I did it because I felt her assumption that I would do certain things needed to be straightened out. I needed that to be a boundary. But I'm not sure if this was the right circumstance/scenario/situation to bring this up.
Well Alamo, I don't think she had a clue that was what you were doing. I didn't catch it either until I saw this statement and went back to read where you acted on what you thought needed to be straightened out. No, the boundary was not made clear, IMO. You just come off as looking like a jerk to her!
Whenever you draw the line....you need to make sure she knows where it is and what it's all about. No guess games. No assumptions.
The sick feeling you're experiencing is b/c you are not use to standing up to her and being decisive and showing confidence. The first time is hard....but it gets better.
FWIW, I think the parent that is going to keep the child, should be the one to go get him. That way, he doesn't see it as if the parent was leaving him. He would always be the one to go "bye-bye", which most kids love.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
My post last night was timmed where it fell through the crack, I guess. Don't know why unless I took too long.
Quote:
For me I did it because I felt her assumption that I would do certain things needed to be straightened out. I needed that to be a boundary. But I'm not sure if this was the right circumstance/scenario/situation to bring this up.
Well Alamo, I don't think she had a clue that was what you were doing. I didn't catch it either until I saw this statement and went back to read where you acted on what you thought needed to be straightened out. No, the boundary was not made clear, IMO. You just come off as looking like a jerk to her!
Geez, I hope I didn't royally screw it up at an important point in her mind. Thanks for the 2x4, Sandi. I was ill-prepared and have to pay the price for it.
I totally wasn't the man my wife wanted to be with just now.
My wife comes to fetch our son, and she asks if I have her Amex card bill, because they have been calling her.
Now this is where it gets tricky -- you discern who did what right. Before my wife left last month, we had this discussion that she will be taking over paying her credit cards and that I won't have to do it anymore. I told her she has bills (I wasn't sure which) in my accounts stack where they normally are, to which she said she won't touch that. Today my wife said she ALSO said back then that I was supposed to take care of those bills of hers. I don't recall her saying that.
Anyway, the bill came in mid-Feb, she left Feb 26 and the due date was March 4. Ever since she left my wife would ask if I have any of her credit card bills, which in my mind I figured she was referring to those in the mail. So far only one has showed up in the mail, and I left that on the counter for her to take.
So today when she found out that her very late Amex bill was still in the finance stack (which I haven't used or sorted since she left; I do it differently now), she blew up. And...
I defended myself. I kept standing by my understanding of how she should've taken care of her bills when she said will start taking care of them, regardless of the bill that was still in the stack. We went back and forth quite a few times -- she said I should've taken care of the bill(s) in the stack and let her know, and I said I never heard her say that, etc, etc. It was a mess.
One time I said "Alright, this conversation is over. Call me or email me what needs to be done. I don't want to do this in front of him (our son)" He was close by the entire time...I think 10 minutes of listening to us arguing.
We come downstairs, and the argument starts again. But this time it evolves:
She starts telling me that I'm so much worse now. I've been nothing but a big jerk like suddenly telling her she needs to pick up our son (see yesterday); she feels like I'm punishing her, being unfair (again referring to yesterday's incident), and using the reason that she left the marriage. That's all she hears from me, and the lying as gotten worse too -- not telling her about the bills, and other things...and that I walk around all smug and acting, like, I didn't do anything wrong...my wife left me...she's wrong. I said I will take care of the Amex bill and pay extra for the possible interest rate hike; I am well aware that credit card payments are important to her. She kept bringing up the past times I screwed up her credit for late payments and she has to suffer for it again. I said I would take care of this bill. My wife then said that I haven't changed -- I didn't even admit that I could've been wrong...not a single "sorry".
And then she says that for someone who's trying to attract her back, I still lie and behave like a jerk. She told me she's not attracted to me anymore and haven't been for a long time. I said when did I lie? When am I a jerk to you? Who's the one coming in the house some days with a negative attitude? ...So that begins another back-and-forth. I said things are different now, and she says she doesn't see me getting over my addiction. I told her she's right -- it'll always be an addiction, but I have equipped myself to keep it away. So my wife says I can't trust you to be honest in telling me if you did go back to it. You even lied about not having any of my bills even though I have specifically asked you for them these past two weeks. ...During our marriage you didn't find me attractive enough (due to the porn), to which I answered that she was always attractive to me. "No you didn't," my wife replied. Then I basically said that until today she does not understand how and what addiction really is. The addiction and my lying was a trap... then she starts carrying our son and tries to grab some bags of clothes she was taking with her, and I tried to help, but she says no way, jerk. And again, I said who's the jerk? You come in this house and expecting you not having to have any consequences for leaving?
She storms through the garage to her car outside saying that I was immature. Then I said -- you guessed it -- who's immature?
By this time she's still struggling with her stuff and our son in her arms, so I opened the car door for her. She said "Ha-ha, you can open the door, I don't care, but you're nothing but a big jerk" That's why I lost attraction for you so long ago. You're still the same person. You act like I'm the bad person for leaving...if people only knew of the things you put me through. Do you remember Dave (our church minister), his sermon, saying that people usually think that the person who left a marriage is the bad one? Well, if only people knew what I went through with you. I put up with you for 6 years.
I told her no one thought, not even the church folks, she was a bad person. I said people know about what happened. I said I know she did live and had to put up with my crap for six years, and I didn't want her to go through that again...we can give each one last chance, because she can always choose to divorce.
Then she drove off.
I don't know what is wrong with me. I completely shattered the conversation, there were plenty of opportunities for me to be mature, remorseful, nice, and/or respectful to her...and I dropped the ball. Oh yes, my wife also said those exact words during our conversation when I finally said I was sorry about the card issue.
I'm not sure how I can recover from this. Not personally, mind you, but with my wife. She said I was acting smug, and all the other things she mentioned -- are these indications that my 180s or goals might need to be rehashed? I thought I was being confident, bold and firm, but my wife sees it as intimidating, prideful and more deceptive. I remember DB/DR said that if the results aren't positive after a certain amount of time, it might need tweaking or a major redo.
You are falling into old habits (arguing). You DO need to stand up for yourself and reinforce healthy boundaries, but along with that you also need to VALIDATE. I think this is the key point you are missing at this point.
A boundary is fine to enforce (parent needs to come and get kid for the sake of the kid for example) but when you interact with her you should not be fighting/arguing. You need to validate her concerns by reflecting back exactly what she says. Enforce your boundaries by your actions. Enforce them as gently as you can, but stay firm.
There is lots of information on how to validate on these forums.
Hang in there man. Keep doing this for you and for your kid.
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
Alamo, I'm new here but IMO your 180s and goals don't seem to be the problem. You had a real problem executing them when she started to push your buttons by insulting you, calling you "jerk" etc.
She has memory of the past behavior and now the credit card bill problem seems to her just like a continuation of the past.
The difference in opinion between you and W of your character is familiar. During our last (final?) MC session my wife's opinion of me was completely opposite of mine. I think it's her picking out behavoirs that support her view of me while I'm thinking of the NEW ME behaviors that I've been adopting. When I figure this out I'll tell you
Married 15 years 3 children 13, 12, 10 1st D bomb Jan 09 2nd D bomb Feb 11 I moved out June 11
Mike - You are absolutely right for saying that I've fallen into old habits of arguing. And I did it to my wife because I couldn't let go of MY guilt for standing up for myself the day before (when I had the stomach knot). I was wondering why I was more critical and negative-feeling all of yesterday, and then after the conversation, I realized I was externalizing my guilt onto others. I feel horrible about it and have tried to motivate myself to snap out of this childish guilt trip.
Would it be a good idea to apologize to my wife in a letter or something right now?
Country Song - I'm going to back off a little on the self-confidence part, because I think I've been trying too hard. I can see definitely see now how this might come across as fake and prideful/smug in my wife's eyes. I was also wondering if I might've been doing too much of "fake till you make it" or "acts as if" things, such as acting like everything is fine, etc.
Determined - She DID manage to trigger my response by using keywords like "HUGE jerk", "liar", "irresponsible", "never will change", and "porn". Because I felt guilt and externalized it, I was basically one sensitive ticking time bomb.
So I'm really wondering if it's smart to apologize to my wife now or not? I feel like I've step on her toes big time and not feel like, even now, I'm not taking responsibility for how I behaved yesterday.
Some of the things your wife said: seems like your wife and mine swapped notes. My wife said lot of the same stuff during one of the conversations. At the point, like spellfire said, i just listened, validated her, calmed her down, and then tried to set the boundaries by making sure she understood that the decision to leave was hers.
My wife is always telling me how she had to put up with my bullsh*t for 11 years. I think i have developed thickskin for her comments now.
I found this very useful reading one of the books. When she flys off on you, imagine her to be this little girl who is just throwing a tantrum. Then think of yourself as her mentor figure. Do you then mad?. Nope, you try to calm her down. I tried it and it works for me.
One interesting thing here though is what your wife said "And then she says that for someone who's trying to attract her back, I still lie and behave like a jerk. "
Man that says to me that she's ambivalent about her decision. That is good. But man, these discussions with your wife are good opportunities to grab and show her what responsible man you are. You can do it.
BITS M 38 W 36 D 7 Married 15 yrs W left for 6 months in 2009 W Filed for D 01/03/11 piecing now...
I didn't catch it either until I saw this statement and went back to read where you acted on what you thought needed to be straightened out. 