Thanks everyone for your brilliant feedback and encouragement about this evening’s “kinda sorta date” with XH: dinner and a movie. I took advice from Sanderika AND Rabbit and wore a black long-sleeved cotton shirt with a deep V-neck trimmed with wide black lace, UNDER a light grey knit cardigan that buttoned up the front. I un-buttoned the top 2 buttons, so that the black lace peeked out from under the cardigan. I gave myself a facial today so that I was dewy-faced.
XH was kind of sedate again and initially seemed to make a bit less eye contact. We leaned into each other throughout the movie to chat softly, but that was the extent of the opportunities to brush up against XH in flirty ways. We saw “The Adjustment Bureau” which gave us something to talk about over dinner. I took my cue about how to interact from XH’s demeanor so decided not to go for laughs or heavy flirting this evening. We ended up talking about some substantive stuff ---- more so than when we were a couple. The movie raises the question of to what extent free will exists, so after the movie we talked about free will a bit. I asked XH what 3 events in his life had had the greatest influence on his life. He said: his twin sister’s death, some business issues he had about 15 years ago, and his first D. I told him my top 3 life-changing events were: my father’s death when I was young, the poverty I experienced as a result of my 1st D, and my decision to attend graduate school.
I asked XH how he was doing with his mother’s health. XH got a little cross at that point and said “I know you think that I need to address issues with my mother”. I kindly looked into his eyes and in a very calm, kind voice said “Would you please do me a favor? Would you please try not to read my mind? You have done that in the past and you haven’t been correct. I have actually been thinking that you seem much more at peace in your R with your mother now compared to one year ago. I am asking you about your mother’s health because you’re a friend. That’s what I do with friends.” I was surprised that XH replied by looking me straight in the eye and saying in a calm and genuine way “I will try to not read your mind”. That was a change for XH. He wasn’t defensive at all in response to my statement. Not sure if XH remembers he left our M because he thought he knew I would never leave my university position to save our M, so he didn’t bother telling me how unhappy he was.
We talked about his R with his mother a bit. As we spoke, XH got tears in his eyes…….so sadness is bubbling just beneath the surface. We also talked a bit about BMF’s mother who had a terribly critical nature throughout BMF’s life. I said “It’s pretty clear that BMF has been trying to achieve the love he never got from his mother in every dating R he has ever had”. XH nodded and agreed. I said “Yes, BMF had a very critical mother, but he has been a grown adult for many years and he is capable of sorting that out for himself so that it doesn’t have to haunt his life anymore”. XH nodded his head in agreement………..so XH is not defending BMF’s bad behavior with women.
I told XH that I participated in a D support group (first time I ever mentioned this to XH). He seemed interested and asked if I was attending or leading the support group. I told him that the members mentor and provide support to one another. XH told me that his former business partner’s M counseling is not going well. I asked “Is his W going to individual counseling? If she’s so unhappy, why isn’t she going to counseling?” I also told XH specifics about my current financial concerns. He listened.
As we walked to our cars, XH turned to say good-bye, we hugged, and I kissed him on the lips sweetly. He looked a little surprised but reciprocated. We chatted a bit more and XH said he might not be able to play TT this week because of a scheduling conflict but that he would e-mail me to let me know. We got into our cars and drove away. XH honked as he drove past me.
Since leaving the restaurant I have been trying to figure out why lately (last few get-togethers) it feels as though XH and I haven’t clicked when we get together after it DID feel as though we clicked just a couple months ago. After thinking about this a bit, I’m pretty sure XH isn’t his normal self lately because of his mother’s declining health. XH indicated that he had visited his mother Friday night and also said that BMF’s work is very busy and that BMF is now dating a new woman. All of this makes me think that GF#2 isn’t around and that XH must be kind of lonely since BMF is probably spending less time with him.
Writing this down has helped me piece things together. I hope that these debriefings give others ideas of how reconnection can occur.
Ok so maybe loneliness has triggered his need to connect more, thats not a bad thing, Mr Rabbit also had to get lonely too before he started to think, and ironically you dont have to be on your own to be lonely.. You have us to bat things around and pass the time of day with albeit every few days and if his BMF is busy well poor Mr GAG has been "billy no mates" and has given him time to reflect. Ok some of his sadness will be the impending expectation of his mum, but as you asked him not to mind read you must honour him as well!
Funny we ended up having some pretty unintentional meaningful conversations those first few nights out, perhaps its because general chit chat seems so less meaningful when you know what the whole picture is? Also you need to expect pull backs when youre getting some where, funny they offset something good they give you (dinner date) with some thing they cant do (TT) but I bet he will be there its just him stepping on his back foot to test it still works lol.
The fact you have been able to keep up this constant pleasant contact shows he cant let go, even if he is convinced he needs too he cant. Now what ever you do now keep it smooth and calm dont ripple those waters by getting excited, if anything I expect you feel a bit bemused, I certainly did, in one whole evening you connect, get pushed away, connect and then side stepped? Dont let one minute of your dinner date change your life for the time being..
This is gonna be a slow brewing cuppa but I reckon its worth the wait
____________________________
W 47 H 47 M 24 T 30
Once lost but now found and happily married again!
Rabbit's reflection makes lots of sense here GAG. XH is still definitely drawn to you. There are quite a few positives from your night and it appears you are clearly in that more relaxed friendship zone. Unfortunately, it's probably going to take a while to move further along. Will reflect some more.........
Rabbit, there were SO many nuggets of wisdom in your post, as always…….I love your colloquialisms (e.g. “billy no mates”).
Originally Posted By: Lost Rabbit
… but as you asked him not to mind read you must honour him as well!
Thanks for this ^^^^^ reminder.
Originally Posted By: Lost Rabbit
Funny we ended up having some pretty unintentional meaningful conversations those first few nights out, perhaps its because general chit chat seems so less meaningful when you know what the whole picture is?
I think you are talking about you and Mr. R here, right? This ^^^^^^^^^ was a REALLY, REALLY important insight for me. Thanks! As I was visiting with Mr. GAG I felt as though the conversation just wasn’t fun and lacked the chemistry we’ve always had……but you are right, that I can’t really compare our first “dates” now with our first dates years ago, because even inane conversation can be interesting with someone new. In our previous R we didn’t talk much about feelings and values because we were busy doing. In your situation Rabbit, do you remember how this phase transitioned into the next for you?
Yes. Patience and calmness. Thanks for the reminder.
Originally Posted By: Lost Rabbit
………if anything I expect you feel a bit bemused, I certainly did, in one whole evening you connect, get pushed away, connect and then side stepped?
That’s ^^^^^^^^ exactly how it has been feeling. Thanks for validating that.
Originally Posted By: dolphin_05
….it appears you are clearly in that more relaxed friendship zone.
Cas, right now I don’t feel very $exually attracted to XH or anyone else for that matter. I feel as though I am checking HIM out too. I need to know if he is worth investing more time in, so I am watching and listening too. If he were to become more considerate and fun, my feelings would probably change. I’m wondering if he might be going through GF#2 Withdrawal??? Hard to know.
Update: So…..after the dinner/movie Sunday evening I e-mailed XH a quick thank you. He responded 10 minutes later “Hey Back! P&P (pizza n' peroni).... one very tasty meal. Good place. Mr. G”
Then today XH e-mailed me “Hey…I can't make Wednesday..... could we go for Thursday? I am going on vacation for one week on Saturday …………. I will plan to see Mom ……….. before I leave ……….. If you can see her while I am gone, that will hold her…until I (return). Thanks!”………So this is the very first time since the bomb that XH has asked me to visit his mother while he goes out of town. That’s new for him. I replied that I can play TT Thursday, wrote “Where are you going on vacay? Someplace warm I hope!”, and told XH I could check on his mother. He replied “Thursday is a go. Going to Cancun…80 degrees. The opportunity just presented itself….had to go!” I replied "Lucky you! Bring me a pair of maracas, OK?"
So………I have no idea who XH is going with but I maybe I can find out on Thursday. I am a bit frustrated about the vacay, but in my situation XH has not indicated he wants anything other than a friendship with me so I don’t really have a good reason to be irritated.
I scheduled a session with Jody this Thursday to get her take on my situation now. I haven’t talked to her since X-MIL was given 6 months to live. I’m confused about how this affects my DB’ing.
As I was visiting with Mr. GAG I felt as though the conversation just wasn’t fun and lacked the chemistry we’ve always had……but you are right, that I can’t really compare our first “dates” now with our first dates years ago, because even inane conversation can be interesting with someone new. In our previous R we didn’t talk much about feelings and values because we were busy doing.
I agree with this. In the beginning the chemistry is built as your learn more and more about your date and you establish your similarities and differences and you begin to determine the potential of each other for future. In our cases, this 'fun' part has occurred years before and the suitability assessment phase has already been covered. This means that there's bound to be more meaningful conversations based on shared family and friends, familiar routines and experiences. And that could also answer your observation on the lack of $exual chemistry. You are busy assessing and analysing changes and responses so that it almost becomes a business transaction and the spontaneity is diminished.
I just spoke with Jody. In response to the point you raised about not feeling $exual chemistry, she raised a very interesting point. She said that because Mr. GAG is in MLC, she doesn’t recommend $exual flirting. During MLC, men’s hormones are changing and so their libido is reduced….. and in Mr. GAG's situation, his grief over his mother’s impending passing will negatively impact his libido too. I got the sense (although Jody didn’t say this directly) that she might make at least a slightly different suggestion if the MLC H was not middle-aged. This perspective made a lot of sense to me.
I'll try to post a synopsis of our discussion in the next few days.
I'm playing TT with XH tonight. I'll try to post about that too in the next few days.
Cas, thanks for your feedback about flirting with an MLC male.
Well..........I chatted with Jody yesterday. I’m sharing the notes from our session because they may be of help to others out there.
I started out by asking Jody how XH’s mother’s poor prognosis impacts my DBing. I had stepped up my flirting last fall, before his mother’s health declined. Jody said that XH doesn’t’ have the emotional reserves to deal with our R or any romantic R now. I need to make sure that I’m doing things primarily for my R with his mother, and not because of my R with him. She said that a friendly, supportive thing to do would be to provide respite for a best friend and that I should do the same kinds of things for XH that I would do for a best friend.
I told Jody that XH has not been angry with me for some time, even when I’ve done things that a normal person might be irritated about (e.g. borrowing and not returning his ladder for 6 months), but instead seems to be directing his anger at his sister. I told her that I have been going “above and beyond” in my thoughtful gestures to XH and his mother. We talked about how I had probably been building my “love bank” (ala Gary Chapman) with XH by doing these thoughtful things. Jody said that when we keep the emotional balance in our R’s tipped on the positive side, then we have a little leeway (a margin) to be spent on little glitches that don’t max out the R. She said evidently XH feels that I have a good credit reserve. I’ve paid it forward. If I look at it from that perspective it may help me to feel not so taken advantage of.
Regarding XH’s vacay to Mexico, I asked her if I am allowed to ask who he is going with? She said that instead of asking who he’s going with, ask a more generic question like “Tell me about your trip. What are you planning to do? Are you excited about it?” If he’s going to feel comfortable about giving me details, he will.
Regarding the evening that XH changed pants in front of me she said THAT was a significant step and it acknowledges the past nature of our R, and indicates that that is “in bounds” with our present R. Jody recommended flirting verbally --- establishing some banter. She said to make our interaction not so $exual in nature. With flirting you should make someone feel more vital, more attractive, and more competent than they were feeling before they spent time with you. It might be something like saying, “Clearly your mother so enjoyed what you did for her today” and then looking in his eyes and saying “She’s really fortunate to have you”. Look in his eyes and say “Thanks for letting me be part of this” and then walk away. When I do something like this XH is left thinking about how he feels about himself. I will have left him feeling good and he will associate me with feeling that way. This reminded me of something Jody had told me earlier: MLC men will want to be with someone who makes them feel good about themselves….someone who makes them feel big.
Because XH is in MLC she doesn’t recommend $exual flirting. During MLC, men’s hormones are changing and so their libido is reduced…..and in XH’s situation, his grief over his mother’s impending passing will negatively impact his libido too. I got the sense (although Jody didn’t say this directly) that she might make a slightly different suggestion if the MLC H is not middle-aged. This perspective made a lot of sense to me.
The advantage of not being $exual is that I won’t be disappointed at the outcome. He won’t feel pressured. If you provide more of a variety of contact there will be a greater chance that XH will respond to at least some of it. Sometimes overtly $exual flirting can feel like you’re trying to exert power over that person. It makes them feel vulnerable. Experiment with various approaches. Try to figure out what creates a connection or a bond. Those things will probably fluctuate over time too so don’t expect the same things to work all of the time. Sometimes we’re horny and sometimes we’re not. It might not have anything to do with the R.
Emphasize FUN. Ask XH “Do you want to get out and do something to unwind?” Use words like “unwind” and “have fun”, rather than “de-stress” because words like “de-stress” have negative clinical connotations.
She said to look for evidence of developing auxiliary connections in our R, like collateral circulation in coronary arteries. These may not be the one precise end result that I think I am seeking right now, but the convergence of these connections may collectively lead to the end result I am looking for. Look at and try to figure out what kinds of energy have been creating new auxiliary connections with XH (e.g. less defensiveness, more honest communication).
Jody compared the place where I am with XH now as being at a slot machine that I have spent a LOT of time putting quarters into. She said “Wouldn’t you feel terrible if you decided to give up and some other woman came along and got to be with the new XH that has been emerging? She said, “Stay to the end of the book. I think there’s a few more chapters.”
I played TT last night with XH. We switched nights at XH's request since he had plans on Wednesday. There was a second TT game in the room where we played, so it was noisy and not private and we didn't have a chance to chat as much during the game as we normally do.
I had purchased a little leprechaun hat and "wig" that I put on my cat. I took photos and showed these to XH. He laughed. At some point during the evening XH put on the little hat/wig and I took photos. I told him that I would send them to his business partner (which I did and copied XH ---- business partner replied this morning but XH did not). Then XH said, "Would you like a photo wearing the hat/wig?" So he took a couple photos of me in the hat/wig.
I played poorly because I am in the process of trying to change my game. Blech!!!! It's frustrating, but there were some good exchanges and I think XH can see a glimmer of the level of play that may be possible between us in the future. There were some pretty funny volleys that we both laughed about...........At one point I took Jody's advice and asked XH "So what are you planning to do in Mexico? Swim with the dolphins? Check out the ruins? Lay on the beach?" XH said "I just plan to relax" and wouldn't elaborate further. He looked tired as he said that, so I validated him by saying "You deserve to take a break. You've been so busy taking care of your mother all this time. I hope that you have a good time". XH didn't look very excited about going to Mexico, so it makes me wonder WHY he isn't excited. XH dropped the bomb a few days after we returned from a lovely trip to the UK (he was very cranky on that trip), so he IS capable of going on a vacay with someone whom he intends to ditch right afterward.......and one week ago he made a comment about how going on a vacay with someone isn't necessarily the way the re-energize a R. He made the comment in reference to a colleague who is having M problems and is going on vacay with his W. At the time I thought he was referring to OUR pre-bomb vacay, but now I'm wondering if he was talking about the person he is going with to Mexico????? XH has asked me to watch/visit his mother while he is out of town and I told him I would be happy to do that. This is significant because it's the first time since the bomb that XH has asked me to do that, even though I've offered several times before. I'm thinking that I should send photos of his mother to XH when I visit to keep the thread going while he it on vacay.
I didn't suggest going out to eat after TT because I've learned from past experience that I need to plant that seed at least a few days before we get together. When we turned to hug each other before saying goodnight, XH leaned in to kiss me on the lips and I reciprocated. It was a sweet kiss, like our previous kisses (this was the 3rd in the last 3 months), but if he is dating anyone I don't think they would be happy to know that he was kissing his XW.........and now that the sweet kiss seems to be acceptable to him I would think that transitioning to a more passionate kiss would be easier when the moment is right.
