Beatrice, thanks for your response. I think I half expected ow was still around which is why I asked the question in the first place. I don't know what I think anymore. I told him I deserve better and I know I do. I am at the point of closing the door forever but there is this small part of me that wonders what is going on and especially with the conversations we have had in the past few days. I am so over this all. I seem to get it altogether and then back he comes and stirs it all up again.
Believe me, I have been there and got the t shirt and film rights. I think we have to let go, if they do this recyling as so many do. For our own sakes. As you say, we get it together and then up they pop again.
I dropped the rope and closed the door. It isn't necessarily 'forever' but it has to be unless and until they sort themselves out. We cannot heal with these people dropping in and out of our lives on a whim.
The MLCer takes a long long time to finish with OW.
You are a strong lady, and will make it either way. We have to step away from abuse to see it for what it is, and recover. As long as we go on giving them 'chances' nothng will change. Your h has to change, and only he can do that. Do you really want to continue in some sort of emotional tug of war?
I imagine you and I feel like the same emotionally today.
This is really hard to navigate and live.
Even though the conversations are a bit different and we are different people from you and H, my H and I are having the exact same actions and results.
Your recent experience mirrors my latest (within the past 60 days) to a T. I, like you, need to figure out the best way to move forward.
After reading about your conversation with H, I believe that you were given a glimpse of H out of the tunnel, a brief trip outside btw. From the moment that you received the birthday invite until YOU asked of the OW's whereabouts, your H was poking his head out.
IMO, things are not all that great between H and OW....there is a reason she moved out and chose a suburb a good distance away. He will guard the real reason, you may never know the truth. He is not ready at the same time to give up on what he perceives is a worthy relationship.
He is not very close to the end of this MLC thing. He is still being defensive and protective about the OW and that relationship. This is the problem.
In my case this is a definite. I and everyone else hear and see the turmoil OW causes my H, at the same time he see her negatives and psycho behavior he is still hanging on to it. I have to wonder if their hanging on to OW is also a drug to them and they are addicted to it.
Beatrice is right. She has spoken to me on your last thread and she has a lot to listen and adhere to. You and I need to make a plan and put it in motion with or without our H. They have had enough time to make things right. They appear to want to while they fall very short at actions and choices and this game they play is devastating to us and our families. I know as long as we enable this behavior they will continue on without facing the problems and making the changes. NOTHING WILL CHANGE
Our Hs have been entertaining with these OW for a very long time. Beatrice is right. They will take a very long time to get over. Some may not be able to.
Your H became very defensive at the very moment he felt cornered by you. You have done nothing wrong. He is wrong. He is not ready to continue. He felt pursued and for the most part scared by you because you were getting too close. Things were at his instigation, which was fine with him....it was his idea. Turn the table and when you presented yourself to him he panicked. He is still very selfish and wants to call all the shots. This is where I feel my H is. I fear that this will not change.
They say that once you start to see honesty and humbling that this is closer to the end more so than any time previously. They need patience not rushing.
This may be what is happening in both of our sitches. They will remain holding on to the MLC for as long as they can. Do we sit and be patient and nurture when they seek us. OR Do we close that door and lock it.
The problem is we have no idea if they are truly emerging or not. We could be prolonging the journey. We could be helping it to finish. If we knew at what place this was we would know what to do. This is why they tell us to leave them out there.
I think you should not initiate any further contact with him. Let him stew. Let him make the moves. If he is interested he will not be able to stay away. He will pop by either through a visit, skype, text.....whatever he feels comfortable with at the time.
Your H has copped a very cocky attitude, this is because he is feeling pressured to choose YOU. I have lived this, this is from my experience. I am not putting a gun to his head and neither are you to yours. This is a great example of their state of mind. Paranoia describes it well.
I am planning to do just this with H upon his return. I have no plans to speak to him. I am planning to avoid him. I know for a fact he will seek me. I know him.
Leave your H alone to think. I would not remind of a Wed. dinner. I would let it go. IF...he initiates....then your H IS emerging. If he initiates, I would go. I would put all my negativity away for the evening and muster up a wonderful fun personality. It might be fake, I would make it work. NO MENTION TO HIM OF THE OW. THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT CAN ONLY BE DISCUSSED IF THEY BRING IT UP.
From now til then go about your day with stuff you like and be busy and upbeat. If H pops up take it one at a time. If your busy, ignore. If your curious, speak. If your speaking, be kind and happy. If he shows up in person, be welcoming.
I also don't want just a friendship with H while he is with any OW. If this goes that way here, my H will be told that a friendship is not possible. The real reason is that I do not condone his choice or behavior.
(((((Cas)))))) I am standing beside you. I hope this was helpful.
Sanderika
ME48/H48MLC T 33y M 28y S16 OW 8/7/05 Bomb 8/16/05 Sep 9/05 H f'd D 10/3/08 D pp'd 1/20/09,7/24/09,12/4/09 D dismissed 2/5/10 H served me D papers again 9/4/10 D dismissed 9/26/11
Sanderika, the reason this behaviour is so familiar is that my h also did this. It was more dramatic with him, because in between times he was very mean. But I decided to put a stop to it last June, backslid a couple of times [to the extent of exchanging texts, but have been totally without contact since our divorce a few months back.
And you know, I feel so much better. I am finally starting to be really OK. We get locked in to their drama. Everything you say is true. We can never know whether our actions are enabling, prolonging, or helping them. The point is that it has to be about what is best for us, after all this time.
I believe that if and when they "get it", they get it, and until then there isn't a lot we can do except protect ourselves.
Beatrice and Sanderika have given you excellent feedback that is hard won from their years of dealing with an MLCer. In reading your posts, two things struck me: (1) your H is VERY confused and (2) you need to take care of yourself.
From out here in the ether, my sense is that H’s admissions to you last week followed by your recent interactions with H triggered old fear behaviors. It appears to me that these events progressed too quickly for H to process them in a healthy way, so he reverted to his “survival” behaviors. Cas, I hope you don’t mind if I share some excerpts from the book “The Neuroscience of Human Relationships: Attachment and the Developing Social Brain” by Louis Cozolino. I think this information puts the behaviors we observe with our MLCer into a context that we LBS’s can better understand. Cozolino does an amazing job of integrating neuroscience and psychological research findings with his own observations from his practice as a psychologist. I’ll try to summarize some of what he wrote below:
“Resiliency --- our ability to cope with life’s ups and downs --- is closely tied to the extent and quality of our support systems. We appear to be capable of coping with just about anything when we are connected to those for whom we care and who care for us. But what happens when we experience trauma at the hands of those we love and depend on? Interpersonal trauma is an especially difficult challenge, particularly for children, because it creates competing response within them: They simultaneously want to cling for support and push away for protection. It is precisely this approach-avoidance conflict that can make interpersonal trauma so damaging…….When interpersonal trauma occurs early in life, this approach-avoidance conflict can become a consistent state of being, around which our personalities are formed……For a child, the experience of simultaneous impulses to run toward and away from a parent is crazy-making………If you need to feel connected in order to heal but are too afraid to trust because you become fearful and dysregulated in relationships, you are stuck. This “Catch-22” keeps many people in a constant cycle of loneliness → approach → terror → avoidance → loneliness, and so on. Many people come to therapy for years but are too afraid to trust their therapists enough to share themselves openly. They desperately need to establish a R in order to heal, but their fears overwhelm them and they flee back into a safe isolation.”
The author goes on to talk about two areas of the brain that whose size and connections can be altered during development by traumatic experiences (e.g. parental neglect, shame-based parenting, abuse). An area called the “amygdala” is where emotional memories are stored; the body’s “fight-or-flight” responses to fearful triggers in childhood or adulthood are initiated here. The “hippocampus” is where conscious memories are stored. If this area is functioning, individuals are able to think about perceived threats in the environment and respond in a thoughtful and reasoned manner. Using the example of a fearful memory, “the hippocampus is required for the conscious memory of the experience, the amygdala is necessary for the visceral response to fear. The sight of a dog that once bit you might elicit a bodily response via the amygdala, but” if the hippocampus was damaged from this experience it “would leave you with no conscious memory of WHY you were afraid.” Research has shown that adult women who experienced childhood abuse have reduced left hippocampal” size “and increased dissociative symptoms” (the ability to “leave their bodies).
“Rejection and abandonment plunge us into states of fear, anxiety, and shame”…..and, “it is the fear of abandonment, dysregulation, and shame that often keeps us from being able to love………Based on the way our brains operate, evolution appears to have been far more interested in keeping us alive than making us happy. Overall, negative emotions trump positive ones and weigh more heavily in our evaluation of people and situations (Cozolingo cites several research studies throughout this section to support his statements)….The amygdala is quick to learn and slow to forget. Learned fears are tenacious and tend to return when we are under stress. Fear is not easily forgotten, whereas learning NOT to fear is fragile and often dissipates over time. We don’t even have to be conscious of a stimulus, either in the environment or within us, in order for it to become a conditioned cue for fear……..” a brain “pathway to the amygdala becomes activated in response to “unseen” threats and controls reflexive and autonomic response (i.e. “fight-or-flight” responses such as increased heart rate, sweating, and muscle tension). …our amygdala is attending to things around us to which we are completely oblivious, guiding our thoughts and behaviors accordingly; it teaches us to fear without us even being aware of what is happening. Because the amygdala can respond in under 100 milliseconds, our fear networks can move through several processing cycles before a frightening stimulus even enters conscious awareness……the role of the amygdala is to remember a threat, generalize it to other possible threats, and carry it into the future. “
In therapy, the psychologist works to establish new patterns of brain activity in the areas of the brain negatively impacted earlier in life. Cozolino gives an example of a depressed woman (“Sasha”) in her mid-30s. Her parents were research scientists who were proud, efficient, unemotional and very concerned with appearances and their reputations. They “focused exclusively on how Sasha behaved and performed in school. She grew up competing for the little attention their parents had to offer. (Sanderika, is this reminiscent of your H’s childhood experience?) Sasha’s parents seemed concerned only with avoiding being shamed in the eyes of others, so it was no surprise that Sasha’s daily experiences were full of shame. She described finding it everywhere, in each interaction , reflected in the eyes of everyone she encountered.” ………During their work together, their discussions would “invisibly shift into an evaluation of her worth as a person. I would notice that her face would become less expressive and her body would grow still. Soon she would stop interacting and simply nod her head, grunting in acquiescence from time to time. She would then stare at me, as if from a great distance….Each time this sequence occurred, there was a turning point in our conversation, some trigger that resulted in a shift from something she wanted to do for herself to an external test she felt doomed to fail. Clearly, this pattern was burned into her networks of attachment through countless futile attempts to please her parents. When this emotional state became triggered, I became a judging parent. With this hair-trigger shame response, Sasha’s moment-to-moment experience filled with negative evaluations of herself and those around her.) Her experiences with her mother served as Sasha’s unconscious assumptions about all R’s and all people. My work as her therapist was to disconfirm this expectation and help her to discover a newfound sense of trust in R’s. To give you some idea of the work and the time involved in this process, it took her more than a year before she could ask my permission to leave the session to use the restroom. Even the sensations from her bladder would catapult her back to childhood --- and, in her mind, to her bedside --- not knowing what to do.”
I know this was a really long and involved post, but I thought that understanding some of the biologic basis of our MLCer’s responses might give us some level of understanding and peace.
Cas, I think that you H DOES want to move toward you. He told you that himself. The main question is whether or not he can do that on a timetable that meets your needs. You have been incredibly patient. “Going dim” for the past 2 months really seems to have elicited your H’s giant step toward you. Right now I would be kind with him but I wouldn’t make any sudden moves toward him. His body and mind are on high alert right now. H will probably react negatively to any demands placed on him now. Let OW place demands on him. He will react very strongly to those demands………..and be good to yourself for the next week. Things could change during that time. You may have new information in another week.
Cas I am so mad with your H on your behalf.. to go so far forward leading you to believe his wants some form of reconcilation and then to back pedal faster than ever is just cruel IMHO!
I agree with the other ladies, again dont chase go back to your own life behave as if you are done with his stupity.. I wouldnt remind him about wednesday as honestly I'd want to feel wanted and pursued not to feel I was taken out by some one who I had persuaded to take me.. If it took that much persuading then hes not ready, if on wednesday he turns up trumps with a proper proposal for an evening out then that is up to you to decide if you want to go..
My only parting words are PUT YOURSELF FIRST ALWAYS from now on hun! He may not want to move too fast but you need to not let that be a reason for him to abuse your love and wanting to give him a chance.
____________________________
W 47 H 47 M 24 T 30
Once lost but now found and happily married again!
Hello All, As a support group, you are amazing. I am off to work so I will respond to each when I return.
As a general comment....... I have come to the conclusion that H was speaking his mind over the past week and he does want me in his life because this was different to anything he has expressed before. He said things like, be patient, i am trying, I am working on..... etc. I did say in my posts (and it was good to read that) he was making no promises. We agreed this was a day to day proposition.
I gave H ample opportunity to say he was with/apart from ow. He didn't take the lead and therefore I was left with no option but to ask straight out because I knew I wasn't interested in risking myself once again. I can't win in this scenario. I will get upset when he takes her to family dinners or to concerts or spends his birthday with her. I can't live with this type of behaviour anymore and I think he knows that and that is why he didn't mention ow until I was insistent.
I learnt a lot when I visited his house. H said he wasn't going Wed night and said he wasn't going to swimming anymore. I don't care. However, what H says and wants can be very different. It took surprisingly little effort to change his mind.
Since leaving his place I have made no contact and I decided I wouldn't. It's up to H to initiate contact. I did post that I was feeling cynical from the outset and I know why. Of course, if there is an issue H will point the finger at me.
If he contacts re Wed I will go but I don't think he will. He wants me in his life as a fall back and I've told him I'm not available in that capacity.
And yes, Sanderika, the situation with ow is strange. Why did she move out and to another suburb? My only thought is that perhaps she got public housing but I wouldn't have thought this would have been the desired option compared to living with H.
Anyway, off to work I go. Thanks for your support.
I've been reading some of these posts about very early reconnections with wayward Hs and something occurs to me that might help.
I'm well over my D now, and over the entreaties of my Xhusband to reconcile. He doesn't meet my criteria for goodness in my life now (and we have no shared children) ... but I am ready to find a new healthy permanent relationship and I've been doing a lot of research, dating and talking to friends, male and female about this stuff and there are some fundamental skills and resources that are really helpful for starting any new relationship and keeping that relationship strong into the future.
The first is to understand that men and women are different. I strongly recommend you read or refer to Mars and Venus on a date (there's a web-site and bulletin board for John Gray/Mars Venus stuff as well as the books... the board is a bit yukky, a lot of pop-up advertising, but it's good stuff for learning how men and women are different.
Its important to remember, that while you might feel as though this is the man you know so well and he knows you and it makes sense to act in your usual up-front way and ask "hey, what the heck is going on" ... your man has been through the wringer and he's not going to jump back into any relationship that doesn't make him FEEL great. Men (in general - and particularly in life transitions - don't want to talk about what's going on; what all they are doing wrong; what the problems are in their live; they just want to FEEL good.
Women are programed to find a man and then conceptualise a long term future with that person. We don't even know we are doing it. It's ancient stuff. We want to be looked after and protected. Men want to look after us, protect us and make us safe. But they want a woman who is strong on the inside and soft on the outside. They want to know we can look after our own FEELINGS. They don't like it when we dump all our FEELINGS AND FEARS on them, because then they feel like they have to fix them.
One thing I've really learned about men over the past 12 months or so is that they don't think about the FOREVER stuff we do. They are content if one day is good, then the next day is good ... it's when all the good days blur into each other and that's where they'll make their place.
Quote:
He said things like, be patient, i am trying, I am working on..... etc. I did say in my posts (and it was good to read that) he was making no promises.
HE's giving you all the hints here that he doesn't know what he wants, but clearly you are one of his options ... he's asking you to be patient (going to his house and putting the "what's your game" question is not "being patient")
This was really evident to me a few weeks ago. I've been dating a good (although I suspect not-quite-right-and-probably-a-bit-dangerous-for-me) man for 6 months or so. We live at opposite ends of the country and we both have mobile, remote jobs, so we only see each other for about 1 week per month. We'd had this really intense week together that was smokin' and we both felt the deep emotional connection. I had to leave the country to go to work and he was going back to where his children live before returning to his job. We'd been texting all afternoon, but he called me just before I got on the plane and he sounded all depressed; said his ex had had a melt-down at him about the kids; was changing his plans to spend more time in the city he was in .... just drama ... and I got cross.
In my head I made it all about me. "Far out buster, we just have an amazing time together, I'm ready to talk about one of us relocating, and I was going to talk to you about that now; and all you can do is bring us both down." I didn't say that, but I got off the phone pretty quickly and dwelled on it while I was travelling for the next 12 hours.
I got to work and wrote him an email where I poured my heart out - and without realising what I was doing, I effectively said I wanted to up the level of commitment ... in a really nice loving way.
24 hours later, I got an email back from him saying he wasn't in a position to provide the commitment I wanted.
By then I'd found CONTROL of MY EMOTIONS and I decided to handle it from the get-go like all the liturature says we should. I wrote him a short note back, thanking him for his honesty. Told him it had been fun and I wished a gorgeous life for him - then went complete no contact.
I went back to the reading and what i'd don't is made "making a commitment" my idea. Men need to think "commitment" is their own idea. Hell, I guess we all need to think that. I still blame my ex for making me return to Aus from an amazing job on the sub-continent 20 years ago so he could have his "commitment" (should maybe deal with that one!)
The no-contact lasted a bit over a week. He texted me and called me and told me he missed my voice and didn't realise how much he wanted me until I wasn't in his life anymore. I continued to keep my EMOTIONS in check and as much as I wanted to I waited a day to return his call.
He apologised. Said he was angry when he got my email because he has so much else going on in his life and if we make a commitment to each other or decide to relocate it should be after we've talked about it and not by e-mail. All fair points really.
So we're slowly reconnecting and he's talking about the future and I'm validating him.
The flip-side is now that I've got control of my emotions - and I'm being rational about the whole thing - I've got some space to really think about if it's the first/year/sex/chemical thing I'm in love with or this man himself.
Good idea not to press the Wednesday night thing. If you mention it, you'll be persuing. LEt him bring it up ... or not ... and be OK with the outcome either way.
There's also some interesting stuff around you should read about using more feminine energy rather than masculine energy. Masculine energy is the doing energy. It's the giving, fixing, manipulating, task and outcome oriented "doing" stuff. Feminine energy is the receiving energy. We modern women spend a lot of time working from our masculine energy - we need to at work to progress issues and get the outcomes we want on projects. We need to to run a house and do the business associated with living in the modern world - but we would do well to use less of it in our personal relationships with men.
It's possible to tap into your feminine energy and relax into a receiving postion. It makes men wild.
It also doesn't hurt to read up on some of the stuff written for women who are dating and searching for mr right (Christian Carter, 9 mistakes women make that drive men away, Rori Raye has some crazy stuff about being a Modern Siren, and there's a gorgeous page on Face-book about Feminine Energy and using it in your relationships.)
Look at this from all angles. We are not born with these skills or the knowledge - but as we learn them, our relationships with ourselves, men and the world really change.
Take care, V
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Sanderika and Cas, you are getting some good advice here. GAG's posts about the nuerological aspects of psychotherapy are fascinating, and helpful, and they are consistent with the writing in Journey from Abandonment to Healing' about what happens to us when they leave.
I have been reflecting some more on why I think we have to drop the rope and go dark, for our own sakes. Firstly it should not be simply as a reaction. It has to be a 'take a deep breath and do this'. Now I agree about all the deep emotional and psychological things that are almost certainly going on with our h's. . But, and it is a big but, until we fully drop the rope, and face our life without our h's we remain essentially the same person we were. Yes, we have been through h*ll but we remain attached to the idea of our marriage, in some way. Otherwise we would not still be putting up with this terrible behavour. Actions are very important as an indicator of a person's state, and for whatever reason our h's are still in lalaland.
Part of our journey is changing, and while we emotionally hang on to our h's in any way, we do not fully make the huge life transitioning change that their leaving started to propel us into. The fully letting go has been strange, lonely and scary. I have been very very dark before, but I never fully let go. Now I believe I have, and I feel different, after a few months of it. Much much better, in a way I didn't expect.
We don't have to be mean, we don't have to stop loving them, but I think in order to change in the way we need to, we have to let go. Until we do everything for our own sakes, and stop being around for them, trying to support, fix, sympathise, empathise, all the reasons we give to ourselves, we remain part of the problem, in a strange way, not part of the solution. We think we are part of the solution. We aren't. It isn't our fault, it is the way they are currently.
They may never come out of it, and we need to live our lives fully. Interestingly, since I dropped the rope I have been much more content to be on my own. I don't want a new relationship, I don't want my old marriage. I just want to be the person I now am, and get to know them fully. I can now see how very messed up my h is, and how impossible a relationship would be until he fixes himself, and even then . . . Hmmm.
