GAG, I've read along and I am sending you a big hug. I know the pain and where you are coming from. The resentment starts to build and it's draining when you feel that you are the one always looking forward, always thinking ahead, always planning, preparing, considering and doing. You do need time for you to just 'be'. You do need time to nurture and care for you. If that means stepping aside a little, just do it.
I know how much your heart must have dropped reading about H's time away. That was a blow.
Perhaps, as the others have said, it is time to pull back a little and again, let him recognise that you are not a definite in his life and he has responsibilities in this relationship, too.
It is gutwrenching to learn they can take a vacation whilst we toil away at home with jobs and for me a 14 year old who needs to go to school everyday.
This is their selfish side for sure. Those in the "me" mode don't care or worry about things they leave behind. They assume they will be the same when they return as they were when they left.
I have been think about you a lot. I have H issues that I am trying to sort out.
I think that TT went well this week. You are tired. XH knows you have been spending a lot of your free time taking care of XMIL. I have a feeling he didn't put too much negative thought on any of your mood. XH knows you are tired and XMIL is weighing heavy on you just as it is on him/them.
Another thing to realize.... XH will be/and is grateful for everything you do for him and his mother, he's a guy....they really don't go all mush with thanks and graces. A guy will think a simple "thanks" or "thank you" will do the job. XSIL on the other hand, you would expect her to carry on with words and hugs and be a lot more expressive. This is normal and typical.
In my sitch I have decided that I will not initiate a conversation with H upon his return. I am going dark on him. I am busy with my jobs and son and I really can't be bothered with his crap. If he wants to continue to be a dub than I am not going to have any concern. I can hold my head up high. I am being a good and responsible person.
You will have to see how the next week unfolds between you and XH before you decide how you should be to him after this vacation.
I hope MIL does not pass while he is away. He will never forgive himself of that one.
I hope he answers yes to your invite and follows through. It would be a big boost to your morale and will help with your thoughts of him at the moment.
(((((hugs)))))
Sanderika
ME48/H48MLC T 33y M 28y S16 OW 8/7/05 Bomb 8/16/05 Sep 9/05 H f'd D 10/3/08 D pp'd 1/20/09,7/24/09,12/4/09 D dismissed 2/5/10 H served me D papers again 9/4/10 D dismissed 9/26/11
I can't tell everyone how VERY much your encouragement has meant to me today. You all understand more than anyone else possibly can exactly what it feels like to be on this rollercoaster. Bless you all! If it is true that the MLCer feels more pain than we do, I can't imagine what that would feel like.
I am a couple days behind in responding to previous posts..........Please be patient with me. I have a partially completed response that I hope to finish tonight. In particular, Sanderika, I thank you more than I can convey for your generous sharing and encouragement.
I am posting now to let everyone know that XH replied to my e-mail at around 5pm today. As a reminder, here's the email I sent last night....
GAG: "Hey, Sorry if I wasn’t quite as much fun tonight as I normally am. Clinic revenues are down and I’m being hit with a lot of repair bills. I could really use a diversion to recharge my batteries and I bet you could too. You’ve been a wonderful son to your mother, but having a sick parent would take a toll on anyone. Any chance I could interest you in going out to have some fun? GAG"
Mr. GAG? "Hey ….Crazy day here!! Oh, you were fun….FUN to BEAT UP ON!! :O) But I know that there will come a time soon that the scales will tip to your favor…you are certainly improving! As far as fun outings, I will know tomorrow what the weekend holds for me and will toss some options out….I am assuming you mean this weekend sometime? Sorry to hear about clinic revenues up and down……but what a difference THIS job is compared to THAT other job!! Off I go…. Mr. GAG"
Soooooooo..........knock me over with a feather!!!!! I think this is the first time since last July that XH has accepted an invite from me that wasn't dinner after TT........and prior to December his acceptances were always guarded. His response to this invite sounds pretty normal. It's also noteworthy that he suggested getting together this weekend. I don't think he would have suggested the weekend if GF#2 was still in the picture.
Thank you Sanderika, Cas, Rabbit, Mila, Cyrena, Antonia, and Beatrice for your posts. Ladies I am learning a lot from you all, so thank you for your generosity in sharing. I plan to respond to your posts in the next couple days, but I have wanting to respond to some points raised by Sanderika’s posts (and commented on by others) because they have been very thought-provoking.
(((((((((((Sanderika))))))))), you have been incredibly generous with me and others on this board. Since you posted on my thread and on Cas’ thread over the last couple days, I have been trying to think of how to reply to you in a way that might give YOU something back. In one of your recent posts you described your H’s difficult R with his mother and how it devastated him when she died. It’s my understanding that death of a parent is especially difficult when there is unfinished business --- in your H’s case it sounds as though he never achieved the affirmation he sought from his mother. My XH shares that issue but I think that he has experienced some healing over the past year with his mother. Awhile back I read part of two books written by Louis Cozolino about attachment disorder. These books summarize how the brain is shaped by our relationships or the lack of relationships. Cozoino explains how critically important the infant-parent dyad is in shaping our brains and in developing future secure attachments/relationships. The first book, “The Neuroscience of Human Relationships: Attachment and the Developing Brain”, provides an overview of which developmental factors influence the way we form intimate attachments. The second book, “The Neuroscience of Psychotherapy: Healing the Social Brain”, summarizes the scientific evidence that the brain is an organ continually built and re-built by one's experience. As such, old neural networks (established during development (i.e. childhood)) have the capacity to be re-wired with the correct stimuli. We now know that psychotherapy and individuals’ interactions with others can reshape the brain’s circuits (rather similar to the way that Rabbit trains Ms. Mellie). If you are interested in this topic, these books are very good!
You’re clearly a very thoughtful and intelligent woman, Sanderika. Have you formulated an explanation in your mind for how your H can pinball back and forth between you and the OW for this long? Is there something about the OW that somehow reminds your H of his mother or his R with his mother? It seems odd to me that your H would WANT to go on vacation with someone who was acting “psycho”, but then it sounds as though his mother was “psycho” with him. From your description of H it sounds as though he wasn’t too happy about being bullied into doing this.
I know that you are in a very sad place right now. I am very sorry for that!!!!!!! (((((Sanderika))))))) I understand why you are planning to go dark. It is very hard to understand how your H can profess his love for you and then go on vacation with the OW. I’m curious, have you gone dark before with H? If so, what happened then? I agree with the others that is a good thing to do for yourself right now.
The second point I have been wanting to address is the question of “what is the best way to interact with XH to move thing forward”? In some posts on my thread, some have advocated frank $exual flirting and others have advocated nurturing a slowly growing friendship. I have been thinking about this for some time and would like to respond to this point. My XH seems to respond in a “flat” way to sexual innuendo…………..yet my sense is that my suggestive comments and overtures plant important seeds in his mind that allow him to think about me in a different way. Sanderika, in one of your earlier posts you wrote about your 14 year old son’s remark that you shouldn’t dress in an obviously $exy way and I understand what he was saying……..but I wonder if episodes like those are what allowed your H to begin thinking about you more in terms of a partner who is the entire package. Last fall/winter you and your H had a major R talk in which he confessed that he still loves you. Do you think he would have done that if he hadn’t seen the potential for him to feel $exually attracted to you? In my situation, I know that I HAVE seen progress forward since December when I began flirting with XH. Of course I don’t know what else was going on in my XH’s life that may have influenced his baby steps forward during that time.
I do think that both your H and my XH have attachment issues. They didn’t get the love from their mothers that they yearned for and have been trying to get it ever since so I think that nurturing is a big part of what your H and my XH need……….but I’ve also sensed my XH treats me less like “just a friend” since I started flirting and I think the most effective way for me to flirt with him is via casual touches and brushing against his body in seemingly accidental ways.
GAG - you are kind enough to say that we help you, but you also help me a lot. Thank you. I am not familiar with the books you cite, although I am very interested in the neuroscience of pscychotherapy, and will look them out. It makes so much sense to me - a real light bulb moment. This is my xh to a T. He has told me repeatedly and I think truthfully, that he actually doesn't like OW. He ends the r repeatedly, and always goes back. It is as if he cannot leave her alone. And yes, she is like his mother emotionally, and I thnk physically. She is not an attractive or a young woman, and when my h left me he told me that she wasn't as nice, intelligent or good looking as me - and this was at the begining of their r! Since then I have taken very good care of myself, and frankly I look good these days . .
There is some bond that he cannot or does not wish to break. I think it all became even more complicated last year when his mother died, quite unexpectedly, and he wasn't able to get to see her. We were tentatively exploring a reconciliation, although it was pretty rocky, and he suddenly pushed harder for the divorce, and got back together with the OW. He had had a lot of unfinished business with his mother, and she was still angry with him for leaving me and lying to her.
My ex-husband is one of the very mean MLCers - and I think he is carrying a load of guilt about what he has done. He is also terrified of psychotherapy.
Moving on to [some of] the MLCers dislike of overtly sexual flirting - it is something I have noticed with my xh. It is as if they HAVE to initiate and control the whole process of interaction with us, on their terms, and any sense that WE are manipulating them is totally unacceptable. Could it be that their relationship with their mother was one of emotional manipulation on the part of the mother. I am pretty certain now that this was the case with my xh. And then they move on to an emotionally manipulative OW. But when we appear to do it, we seem to be 'like' the women they are reacting to, subconsciously, in so much of their MLC behaviour.
I also note that there are MLCers who are able to contiue to be flirtatious and sexual with their spouses, so there is clearly another dynamic for some of them.
However, I also think that it does plant seeds intheir mind. But I think this has to be done with extreme caution.
GAG, gotta agree with Beatrice. Your posts are wonderful; both those about your situation and your responses to others. You are always so well informed and insightful. I love your references to books. I tried to buy 'I do Again' but will have to buy online.
I somehow missed your post about XH's email reply....wow! Here's some high fives for that!!! And right when you least expected it!!
I agree with the ladies. You give back as good as you get!
I've been reading along and am fascinated by the topic. Thank you all for sharing.
The maternal attachment issue strikes a chord with me also in regards to my H.
A question I have GAG, is there a time in childhood that it is more critical than others that a child could be damaged by lack of attachment to their mother?
The problem is is that I know very little about my H's childhood. I do know that his father died unexpectedly at nine, and his mother was never the same afterward concerning the family unit. She withdrew from them. I do know his mother did become overly protective and H was never allowed to play organized sports because of her fear that he would be hurt. He was not allowed to carry a pocket knife until he returned from the Army. He does have one older brother (by 3 years) that there is very little contact with.
I also wonder if H upon his return from the military rushed into marriage the first time to break away from his mother? H was engaged 3 times before he finally married the fourth woman he was engaged to. His marriage to his first wife lasted 7 years.
I also have to wonder if ow's rejection of H when they were 16 figures into any of this?
I know I won't ever be getting answers to these questions. That would require H digging and looking inside. In our 27 years of marriage H has never really opened up about anything concerning his childhood. His standard answer was always, "I don't remember." I wonder if he couldn't remember or tried very hard not to?
GAG, it sounds as though your XH keeps making positive steps toward you. You've been very patient and empathetic with him. I hope it all works out just as you want it to. Someday I hope your XH realizes how lucky he is!
Beatrice, thank you for your kind words. I'm glad that some of what I write helps people put together some puzzle pieces. I think that we all do that together.
Cas, what you wrote about initiating your skype convo with H gave me the idea to try initiating a "date" with my XH again. I will try to post the second part of my synopsis from "I Do Again" in the next few days. The pain point if "PATIENCE"! Cheryl was very patient, but even then, when she lost her patience and confronted Jeff, he ran right back into his man cave. She writes that there were many times that she said to herself "I give up!".
Seeking, a neurologist I work with mentored me in Cozolino's work. His general rule of thumb (based on everything HE had synthesized in those books) is that when there has been a traumatic incident in childhood (the unexpected death of H's father and change in mother's behavior) people get stuck emotionally and their coping skills get stuck at that stage. (I have often seen women who were sexually molested as young girls, wear Disney or Winnie the Pooh clothing even though they are in their 30s or 40s. That usually makes me suspicious that I should look for this.) Does your H cope like a 9 year old when he is stressed? How would you deal with a 9 year old?...........In our clinic, once the neurologist identifies the timing of the traumatic event he then uses "age-appropriate" strategies to communicate with a stuck patient more effectively.
