How do you trust someone who isn't sorry?

[Denver_2010]

Hi Hope - I'd go with option 2... it goes with everything else that you've been doing this morning, i.e., being happy, not bothered with H actions, etc. I know that it doesn't hold him accountable to anything, but do either of the other 2 options?

Be the change that you want to see Hope. I know that it is hard when you are not seeing results, but it is the higher road.

Lastly, no, you posting that stuff on FB was not wrong. Manipulative? Yes. Wrong? Absolutely not. FB is great for DBing IMO!

BITS
Denver

[JustStunned]

Hope, I spoke to my C sometime ago about manipulation. She asked me why I associated so many negatives with it, and then went on to state everyone manipulates to some extent.

I guess in the broadest sense if we didn’t manipulate people and situations to some extent we would never accomplish anything. IMO “changed since talking with my C” manipulation is one way we get somewhere, only if the destination is negative is the journey bad.

Someday soon I will use FB too.

[hope2011]

Thank you both. I just realized that everything he does is manipulative in some way (to get me to do what he wants, to get what he wants, to get others to think he's a better man, etc). So I post on FB... and it's all true... that's not so bad. I do need to stop beating myself and second-guessing everything. That is a huge work in progress.

I texted him back a simple "Glad you got there ok" text. If he responds, I'll be shocked. He'll "punish me" for not responding to him by not responding to me unti tomorrow.

[MrBond]

IMO you shouldn't have responded.

It isn't an "olive branch" or anything. It's a test to be sure you're still under his thumb. He wants to be sure his needs are met while not having to meet yours.

You shouldn't have responded until he actually sent you a couple more messages. You have to show him that you DON'T NEED him. The sooner you do that, the sooner he's going to get interested.

He will flip it back on you again, saying that you don't care, but don't listen to it!

Think about it this way. He's like a spoiled teenager right now and you are his parent. He can do whatever he wants, treats you however he feels, but when you leave him to do his own laundry, he'll whine and say how much you're hurting him and that you don't love him. Blah blah blah.

His actions speak louder than words. You're not doing anything to hurt the sitch or the M. All you're doing is not jumping whenever he snaps or doesn't snap his fingers.

Trust me. The next time he sends a message, don't respond until his third. Let him start wondering what YOU are doing and why you aren't seeing to his needs. See to yours first.

[hope2011]

Bond, I'm not sure that will work. H is very insecure, and egotistical. His biggest fear and weakness is being adored. When he joined that site, he felt alone, like I hated him. To be honest, I kind of did. He was a jerk, selfish, uncaring. But I wasn't the greatest wife either. I'm loving, kind but I'm not a maid. In fact, he does most of the cooking and shopping. I do cleaning and laundry. I've never waited on him hand and foot and he wouldn't care less if I stopped doing his laundry. He'll just trade me in for someone who he thinks does care about him. Putting up walls, not doing anything, going on domestic strike, yelling back, standing up for myself, fighting.... made it all worse and got me nothing positive at all. The only thing that's made a difference at all in 2 years is being kinder to him, winning over his trust, showing him my changes are real, not fighting him but trying to understand him. If I go back to past behavior, it will only show that my changes weren't real or permanent.

But then, I don't want to be naive or a doormat either.

He has been making changes too. His backslide the other night though really shows me his changes may not be permanent.

To be fair, he really has been trying, he has been kinder, he has been supportive. He has done a 180 himself in the past 2 months. But he's not listening to me, not letting me talk. I'm walking on eggshells. There is no R talk, no apologies. I'm having major trust issues that I can't get past. He doesn't seem to care that all this has broken my heart. I feel like I'm constantly auditioning for the part of his wife and if I pass, he reciprocates my efforts. If not, he pulls away. It's exhausting and unfair and makes me pull away more every day. So I am GAL'ing, building up walls even as I DB.

H responded by text that he had a hard time checking in because of bank issues but he got in.

Bank issues because he can't balance his checkbook. He mentioned before he left he may need my help cashing a check into his bank acct and help picking up the boys on Friday. Well, he didn't ask so how was I to know? He got himself into that situation, not me. I would've helped, had he asked and been kind and cared at all when I needed his help. Heck, I would've helped him anyway because I don't want him stranded. I'm sure tomorrow he'll ask for help with the boys. He rarely asks for help with them (because his XW would never help him at all with them), so I'm not sure how to respond if he does ask.

I responded "ok" to his text. He said he was ok so what else was there to respond to? I'm not going to apologize for a situation I didn't cause just because I didn't save him when he didn't ask for help. If I didn't respond, I'd seem cold and uncaring. So "ok" is enough. The ball is back in his court.

[MrBond]

Nope you're arguing a moot point. Re-read your post just now. You were actually contradicting yourself in the same post.

I never said to be confrontational, just don't respond right away. You don't want to walk on eggshells, then don't. Standing up for yourself and seeing to your needs means that you gain self-respect.

"I feel like I'm constantly auditioning for the part of his wife and if I pass, he reciprocates my efforts."

Wrong. He has to pass being a H to you. The reason why you think like this is because you've lost your sense of wealth. You are the prize to be won. Not him.

You're his third W. He's learned that if things get tough, then he should bail. You have to get him to WANT to fight for you. HE has to prove his worth to you.

"It's exhausting and unfair and makes me pull away more every day. So I am GAL'ing, building up walls even as I DB."

It's called detaching. But it's a delicate dance. You want to detach without totally resenting him if you want the M to survive.

[hope2011]

Nope you're arguing a moot point. Re-read your post just now. You were actually contradicting yourself in the same post.

I never said to be confrontational, just don't respond right away. You don't want to walk on eggshells, then don't. Standing up for yourself and seeing to your needs means that you gain self-respect.

"I feel like I'm constantly auditioning for the part of his wife and if I pass, he reciprocates my efforts."

Wrong. He has to pass being a H to you. The reason why you think like this is because you've lost your sense of wealth. You are the prize to be won. Not him.

You're his third W. He's learned that if things get tough, then he should bail. You have to get him to WANT to fight for you. HE has to prove his worth to you.

"It's exhausting and unfair and makes me pull away more every day. So I am GAL'ing, building up walls even as I DB."

It's called detaching. But it's a delicate dance. You want to detach without totally resenting him if you want the M to survive.

You are so right, on all of it. Thank you.

When I met H I was dating many guys and 1 even potentially seriously. I chose H. He pursued me, wined and dined me, he was Prince Charming. He got me and the novelty of having me has warn off. So 2 questions:

#1 How do I get him to see he's lucky to have me? I can't go date other guys (nor do I want to).

#2 Is this going to be a cycle that repeats constantly for the next 50 years? If so, no thank you.

I won't have a PA or EA or any type of A. If we don't make it, I won't even date at all until we're legally seperated and I feel done and spend some time mourning the M and learning about myself.

BUT.... let me say that while I may be extremely judgemental of those who have PA's or EA's.... I do understand how easy it would be to just walk away from a spouse who is a jerk to someone new who seems to appreciate you. Not that an OW or OM is a catch at all. But you get my point.

I'm grateful for past experiences, past mistakes that have made me mature enough to not put myself into dangerous situations or temptations. I am able to recognize that I'm extremely vunerable right now so I don't talk about personal problems to anyone but a few female friends (except here on the board obviously), I don't get into conversations with the guys at work (I am the only female there right now), I don't talk to ex's, avoid PM's on FB from males, won't even chitchat with the guys in the check out line. But.... I wonder what it would be liked to be loved for me and who I am, to be accepted and appreciated and supported. To have someone compliment me other than a stranger or a friend. To be loved, to just be loved. Without conditions, without demands. In my job, I have complete strangers around the world who respect me.... in my home, I'm alone. I do see how easy it would be to fall into the arms of someone who fills that void. But I won't. My integrity and vows mean too much to me. And as much as I am hurt and angry with H.... I would never do that to him. No one deserves that kind of pain. What's my point? Just sharing with those of you dealing with WAS's in PA's or EA's as to how they may have gotten there. Trust me, it's not escaped me that my H was here too.

Love shouldn't be this hard.

[MrBond]

"Love shouldn't be this hard."

Love isn't hard. It's easy to "fall" in love with anyone you meet on the street. It's temporary and ask anyone in a long term relationship, the "feeling" doesn't last.

What does last is the commitment. If you commit to staying with a person through thick and thin, those feelings come back on a cyclical basis.

Ask anyone who has been married for over 10 years and they'll tell you how the go from hating their spouse to loving them, then back again. It's the way it is.

[hope2011]

True. I was married for 10 years the first go around, I understand this. I got married, fully committed to stick it out, come hell or high water. Both times. My H is a runner though. All his "I want to be married forever, I regret the first divorce, I tried to save the 2nd marriage for years but she wouldn't give up drinking, I have never cheated on anyone in my life, I want a best friend to grow old with", etc... all that talk, I thought he meant it too. Now, even little arguments or disagreements and he's ready to run. Or rather, says he ready to run to hold that threat over my head to get me to comply with whatever. Probably a bit of both.

Ugh, all my posts this week are so angry. I'm in the anger phase, I know this. I am angry. He's been a complete jerk and he has had no consequences to it at all. None. He's broken my heart and couldn't care less.

This is where I messed up being in DB with the XH. He came back and my anger got the best of me and I couldn't DB. I questioned him, I got upset, I couldn't forgive him and I was a b!tch and he ran.

I'm trying hard not to do this again. H hasn't seen my anger, he's not privy to all my pain I type here. I am DB'ing. But it's soooo much harder living with him and DB'ing when I'm hurting. It has benefits too. I know I'm lucky that he's still here, that he's trying. But it doesn't erase everything that's happened and it's hard not being able to deal with what's happened, to not be able to talk about it or work through it. I don't want to punish him. I just want him to be sorry he hurt me and care.

I don't know if I can work through this alone and still DB but I'm trying.

I know when I treat him how I want to be treated, he reciprocates, he tries. So I am going to do more of that. And in the end, no matter what happens, I can hold my head up. If it makes me a doormat, then sobeit. I tried the raging b!tch path for 2 years in this M and before in my first marriage and it didn't work. At this point, what do I have to lose by being kind?

On that thought... I text him this morning "I hope you have a good day". He responded within 10 minutes "You too!". He never uses exclamation marks.

30 minutes later he called. Said good morning, may have asked me how I'm doing but I don't think he did. Asked about the dog. Said he was walking a quarter mile to his meetings from the hotel. I asked why, he said he didn't have money. I asked him why he didn't ask me for help, he said he was ok. He was cheerful. I offered to deposit some money in his acct so he has enough to get home on. He said he was ok. I asked how he was eating, he said hotel breakfast, lunch at work. I asked how he was going to pay for his bags on his flight tomorrow and he hadn't thought of that. I again offered to send him money, he said ok. It was a blow to his pride I'm sure. He may have said thanks but I don't remember. He ended the call when he got to his meeting. No ILY (he rarely does).

So now, I'm torn. Trying to be nice, DB, be a good person despite what he does. But kicking myself too. This is the guy who left me on the side of the road overnight in January. But I am a bigger person, I am a better person than that. I can't live with myself if I left anyone stranded. But at the same time... I wish he was the same. I wish he would treat me like how I treat him. I know me helping him, him being stuck is a blow to his ego. I know he's thinking about how he wasn't there for me. I know he feels bad but I don't hear the words, I don't feel my pain is validated. But I know he thinks and overthinks everything, and he turns his failures over his head a hundred times. So maybe part of me wanting to do the right thing and help him here and is some satisfaction that he's thinking about what he did wrong and maybe he'll think "I don't deserve her" and wake up and be the guy I do deserve.

A girl can hope.

I'm sick so my thoughts are scattered, sorry. Woke up with a fever and cold chills and am out of sorts. Sick and driving in the pouring rain to help H out of a situation he got himself into and I haven't said 1 negative thing about it.... I am a damn good wife sometimes.

[hope2011]

I guess my good deed was the right move. H called tonight. He started the phone call asking me how I'm doing and about my day. I told him I was sick, he seemed a bit concerned. Said he'd reschedule getting the boys so I don't have to go get them and take care of them while sick (thank goodness, they are a handful when I'm well). He said thank you for helping him with the money. He sounded broken, tired, lost. I asked if he was ok, he said ok. I asked him how his training sessions at work are going and he confided a lot. He's having a horrible trip, he's about to lose his job, he's stressed about money... and that's just the work stuff. I listened, I validated things he said that were true, I didn't criticize, I didn't enable either. We were on the phone only about 15 minutes. I ended the call first, telling him to go find something to eat. He said "I love you, take care"... which was weird. Trying not to read into that.

Now, I'm worried though. On the homefront, he's got 2 teenage boys spinning out of control and no matter how hard he tries to reel them in, his XW thwarts all his efforts. He's got mortgage problems, money problems, another job loss in a horrible unstable industry. And he's got marriage problems... another failure, another marriage in trouble, another thing falling apart in his life that he can't seem to get right or save. He didn't say that, that's all stuff he's collectively said in the past few weeks. He has problems, no doubt. Some his fault, some not. But we all have problems. My life isn't easier than his, in some ways it's a whole lot harder. He's at the breaking point though.