I am very impressed with your eloquent posting. I truly think you know the answers to those questions that revolve around in that smart head of yours. Somehow, I think you're going to turn this thing around pretty quickly.
I want to comment on your observation that this might be about forgiveness. Crap, why does this theme keep surfacing for me? My medium friend told me a long time ago that my lifelong "theme" was about forgiveness, so I'm finally taking his comment seriously.
What I've learned about forgiveness is that it is not only a decision, but something that you have to maintain on a daily (or even hourly) basis. I know you've made the decision to forgive your H for his A, but my personal experience is that you have to keep forgiving him.
The times where you have to make that decision again is usually based on fear--which I think ties in nicely to the rest of your post.
You seem afraid of the what ifs. I'm not saying you're being unreasonable at all, but just recognize it for what it is. You commented that you need reassurance from your H. Why not just tell him you're feeling a little insecure and want to hear the words again?
I also congratulate you for understanding why you're not totally giving your heart away completely. It's human, Sage. But what you posted is the absolute truth.
Nobody here would tell you that being duped would be the biggest crime--but if you feel it's preventing you from more intimacy with your H, it needs to be addressed and put to bed once and for all.
My final observation is this. Will keeping track of your negative thoughts REALLY keep those thoughts and actions at bay? I've typically found that clinging to them any longer than necessary is not good for me.
Why not correlate all the positive thoughts you have to positive actions--both yours and your H's? I'm thinking this would be a whole lot easier to digest and work from. After all, who wants to work from a point of negativity?
Just a thought.
Hugs.
UD
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: P.S. has anyone answered your question re the thread title? did I miss it? I'm pretty sure it's Asian Martial arts...but could it be Kung Fu?
Oddly enough, I used this mantra in a reply post to someone on newcomers--and Sage responded! It's a Buddhist teaching: When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
The teacher can be a person, circumstance or an experience, with the focus entirely on the student's timing and ability to learn the lesson at hand.
It has become very obvious to me that many of the posters on this BB have felt that call--which is why we're all trying so hard to learn this lesson and put it behind us once and for all.
What a concept!
You are correct that this philosophy is also taught within the martial arts paradigm. They tie together very nicely!
In Sage's case, I think she's well beyond the student phase (as are you) and in the position of being a teacher.
JMTCW!
Underdog
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: What I've learned about forgiveness is that it is not only a decision, but something that you have to maintain on a daily (or even hourly) basis. I know you've made the decision to forgive your H for his A, but my personal experience is that you have to keep forgiving him.
The times where you have to make that decision again is usually based on fear--which I think ties in nicely to the rest of your post.
Yup...they are definitely tied together. That's one of the reasons why I'm proposing taking a "temperature check" (by noting my ow/lack of forgiveness thoughts)....sometimes I"m so unconcious of how pervasive my negative thoughts are!
Quote: Why not just tell him you're feeling a little insecure and want to hear the words again?
Well....historically, my asking for reassurance has NOT gone well....it has generally made him feel as though he wasn't doing enough...felt judged...and reacted defensively.
Now? Well, he certainly has turned up the heat on letting me know that I am OK...so perhaps asking specifically for something would go better than it has in the past.
I'm also aftraid to ask because I think there's a big part of me that's afraid of what I'll hear if he's prompted...I'm STILL not sure I want to be married to you...you'll NEVER forgive me...why is this taking SO LONG....etc.
Quote: My final observation is this. Will keeping track of your negative thoughts REALLY keep those thoughts and actions at bay? I've typically found that clinging to them any longer than necessary is not good for me.
So....it's more like in the meditative tradition...noticing them and letting them float away (as opposed to clinging to them...). I've figured out that I have negative thoughts without even knowing that they are happening...and I firmly believe that my brain and body and emotions respond to those negatives! Counting them (like, literally clicking a counter) is a way of bringing them to the forefront. It really isn't about dwelling in them...in fact, as I mentioned in my post...it's when I have that big, old fantasy talk with h (where I tell him to get out!) that I know that I'm in trouble and close to crazymaking.
I do get what you're saying, though....and I think I can work from a positive place, too.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Just reread my first three threads from when I joined the BB. I had forgotten that my joining date was 12/13/03 -- Happy Anniversary to me!
So...what can I say other that rereading was my own very own rollercoaster ride. I'm amazed and oh-so-grateful at the support that I got in those very scary first days and (of course) that I get more than a year later.
My goal in rereading was to gather some nuggets -- to highlight the things that work and the ones that don't -- to get some of the benefits from all the brainpower I've been exposed to.
Something really, really scary emerged.... I've been STUCK in "h is doing really wonderful stuff for me but I'm still sad" mode since 03/03.
That blows. And is mighty embarrassing. And speaks volumes about where I need to be turning my energy -- 100%.
I dipped briefly into my first piecing thread -- thread number 4 -- which was the last time h told me that he wasn't sure he wanted to be m....and tbh, that R talk and his comments seemed almost directly related to my inability to enjoy, immerse myself in, be open to, etc. his love and commitment.
What's the difference in 9 months? WELL...I DO a lot better at not putting it OUT towards him...and I am making progress on questioning it, working through it...but simply put...it's been there for months and months....
I found a list of "issues" that I thought h might say about me if he were really mad...this was eye-opening: So....here's a list of behaviors that I would ascribe to myself or think H. would ascribe to me (note that these are the EXTREMES of behaviors -- I don't think I'm ALWAYS like this...)
Lacking confidence in our relationship Lacking confidence in myself as a loveable person Clingy Needing constant reassurance that everything is OK Needing reassurance that A. is over Comparing myself unfavorably to ow Critical of H. in terms of how he shows love to me Insecure Anxious Suspicious Nosy Untrusting Never satisfied Pushy Self-righteous (that A. is ongoing) Disbelieving in what is being said and what is being done Always questioning Mired in either the past or the future Afraid
And here's something from another post:
What I'm actually wondering is if it wasn't the unconditional love that ow gave him that H. craves. I've never been able to relax and truly love him -- I mean, really love him, in the way that he's wanted. I think partly because I always felt as though he was going to leave me so I was always "on guard". Now, of course, just when it feels almost impossible for me to love unconditionally, I think that may be the unblocker for us -- but it's SO hard for me to break free of my fears and insecurities.
Just reinforces the work I have ahead of me...
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: So....here's a list of behaviors that I would ascribe to myself or think H. would ascribe to me (note that these are the EXTREMES of behaviors -- I don't think I'm ALWAYS like this...)
Quote:
Lacking confidence in our relationship Lacking confidence in myself as a loveable person Clingy Needing constant reassurance that everything is OK Needing reassurance that A. is over Comparing myself unfavorably to ow Critical of H. in terms of how he shows love to me Insecure Anxious Suspicious Nosy Untrusting Never satisfied Pushy Self-righteous (that A. is ongoing) Disbelieving in what is being said and what is being done Always questioning Mired in either the past or the future Afraid
This is me to a t minus the ow/a stuff. I hope you are not mad at me. I seem to get fired up b/c we have a lot in common. Also this:
Quote: What I'm actually wondering is if it wasn't the unconditional love that ow gave him that H. craves. I've never been able to relax and truly love him -- I mean, really love him, in the way that he's wanted. I think partly because I always felt as though he was going to leave me so I was always "on guard". Now, of course, just when it feels almost impossible for me to love unconditionally, I think that may be the unblocker for us -- but it's SO hard for me to break free of my fears and insecurities.
And this:
Quote: Well....historically, my asking for reassurance has NOT gone well....it has generally made him feel as though he wasn't doing enough...felt judged...and reacted defensively.
This is all very similar to the interactions with h and me. He feels that no matter what he does, it's never enough. You had also mentioned that your h told you that he doesn't think you'll ever be happy. Are you proving him wrong?
My C also told h and me that he should NOT reassure me b/c that only feeds the insecurities. (Well, he quit reassuring me anyway.) I know that my h felt very hurt that I didn't believe what he was telling me so he didn't want to tell me anymore. He was hurt that I didn't trust him, and kept (keep) this wall up against him. OC, everyone wants to be loved unconditionally, no?? Especially by the person to whom you are married. They're supposed to be our best friends!
It's great that you are making progress by not "putting it OUT to him." What is helping? How can you continue to FEEL better on the inside even if you are *acting as if* you are fine with him?
I don't want to hijack your thread, but maybe this will help. In my case, part of the c-making is not necessarily to get the words, but to see that H could/would get really mad at me (and sometimes I would push to REALLY REALLY REALLY MAD at me), but he STAYED. For him to forgive me was the payoff.
How does it feel to you to truly adore your h, to love him, to be completely open to him, to not have conditions on him? Do you experience that sometimes? I do...sometimes...not your h. But, why oh why, is it only sometimes? How to feel that way all the time? Or at least more of the time.
I hope you are doing well. Yes, you do know what to do. I know that the old adage is "knowing is half the battle," but I think that's a crock! I think it is just the tip of the iceberg! The hard part is actually changing!! You have tons of insight! And you are making great progress!
Sage, Thank you for the post on my thread. I was also reading the Acorn response again... don't remember who's thread it was on, I think it was yours and she talks about getting out the After the Affair book and doing it. Would your H do this? Would actively working on it help you with your insecurities? And if your H won't participate, maybe you need to read it (again)? JMHO
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Wow, Sage, this feels sort of like a year ago (I joined a couple of weeks after you)...
What I mean is here I am again wanting to lift your words and place them right into my journal.
Quote: I'm not overtly asking for reassurances or bringing up the A...but my WITHHOLDING of joy, of complete acceptance of how good things are for us now, of love, of commitment, of calm is a way (in part) of reminding ME and of reminding HIM (I suppose) of THE STORY. You know the STORY -- where I was hurt and betrayed and on and on.
WHY? Because if I cling to the STORY...I get to cling to all the hurt. And I get to NOT QUITE forgive. And in some totally perverse (and untrue) way I get to feel a bit safer...
IF I don't fully forgive and it happens again, well, I won't have been duped.
If I don't fully forgive then maybe the fall won't be so hard or long.
If I don't fully forgive don't I get to withhold ALL that I am SO AFRAID of giving to him? Don't I get to do it "justifiably"? Well...I'd TOTALLY love you but you did this bad thing....
How convenient for me.
OUCH!!!....Oh yeah, this touched a nerve.
And Sage I think your action plan sounds GREAT...I know that when I first began self directed cognitive therapy and WROTE DOWN my negative thought content...I literally cried in shock to see HOW MUCH there was.
But I have found since taking up meditation that it is very helpful to be mindful of these thoughts, while as you know, only acknowledging them and letting them pass.
For heaven's sake...last night for the first time in a while I had trouble falling asleep (yeah we had a LATE party here on the weekend ). I heard one of our cats walk by the bedroom and for SOME reason started ruminating about the cat I had a as a child...how I'd let it get sick, hadn't taken it to the vet in time...
I was nearly in tears...and then I realized what I was doing!! Meditation worked like a charm.
I am the master of creating positive energy and love in my own environment. I am the source of love in my life. It starts with me! This energy radiates from me! It gives me strength, courage, wisdom and grace!
I NEVER fail to be amazed at the clarity of your thoughts and the absolute honesty of your posts. I often come to your thread .... to 'see' where I'm really at.
You say so well what I wonder...you have so often been a friendly, helpful stranger, when I lose my way.
). I heard one of our cats walk by the bedroom and for SOME reason started ruminating about the cat I had a as a child...how I'd let it get sick, hadn't taken it to the vet in time...