It again was never meant that way. I was hoping you would follow the train and come right back at me. I was ready for a beat down. Or at least some hostility. One thing I have learned is that you have to "see" the other side. You have to "see" what the WAS is. Just because my post count beats yours does not mean I am smarter or better than you. I am posting in the "newcomer" section. Everyone can see it. Yes.. I would like things to not be the cut and dry stuff that most people will post. But I don't fault you for doing just that. I appreciate that you took the time to post. Most people won't. You did. My walk here has allowed me to "play" both sides(W/H). I am most likely going to learn from the "reaction" to what I typed out. I am so much better at things "here" than I am in RL because I can digest it and not have to think on the fly. This is why a wall of text is fine with me. I can't explain it any other way than it is just the way my brain works.
I understand that it wasn't meant as how I took it Forest. You can have the same situation the same words, and four people are going to have four different reactions depending on the damage or programming they recieved as children.
You just saw my damage by the way I reacted. To a degree, I can also see yours by your reaction to what I write.
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See.. I like that. Just not sure how to broach that subject or what to suggest. When I come home.. I am the "Go Boy" meaning I "Go" get dinner.. I "Go" to the store.. I just "Go". By the time I have finished "Go Boy" it is time for her to go to sleep. We used to talk just before she went to bed. But then the son kept coming in. And she would "snuggle" with him. Plus it was way past bed time. (For him)
So work your magic and give me some simple terms there. If you were in that situation with me.. what would you want me to do?
I wish I had magic Forest. I just have some practical suggestions that may or may not work. Hmmm, a transitional signal that would make it clear to your wife.
Well lead time is good Forest, you know we women are like electric stoves in our responses, not a gas flame...there is no instant on. So, say an hour before your "go to" time stops, touch your wife, grab her hand, kiss her neck, stroke her hair ( whatever will get her attention and fulfill a need for touch there) and say something about your intent. Look her in the eye and tell her " Hon, I'd like to share your day, could you be ready for some time for us ,in private and peace by the time I get back? I really love the sound of your voice when we share our lives that way."
Use Gary Chapman's love languages here. If gifts are one of her primary love languages, bring her a little gift back from your trip to the store. It doesn't have to be expensive, just thoughtful...Hershey's kisses, a scratch and win ticket...use your imagination. If that doesn't work, perhaps you take over or share in the bedtime ritual for your child so it's a clear signal that it's time to wind down for all of you. Or, you set the mood. You turn the lights down low, light candles, put out a nightgown/robe for your wife.
If it isn't working do something else until you find what does.
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Ok.. I made to big a deal about the porn. So just for the sake of discussion lets limit it to my "drinking". 90% of my drinking happens after she has hit the bed. Not recently.. but before all "this" started. Again.. it is a cycle. We are almost where we were in early 2007. The porn use has just cropped up recently. I question somewhat your perspective of the "Boy in the man". To be honest with you.. looking back.. she liked the "Boy" more. Again.. I get it.. just not sure I totally am on the same page with you.
Oh don't get me wrong Forest, we love that boy too! We love the zest for life, the spontaneity, the exuberance, the unselfconciousness, the fun that the boy brings to the man. We just don't want him in control, because little boys are not good at navigating the adult world.
What's the alcohol for Forest? Is it to let your walls down so you can feel or is it to numb out? If it's to numb out is it to numb the pain of disappointment or neglect? Think really hard on this.
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I was gonna grab your whole statement. But.. this I think encompass everything. I know that I need to "Know my wife". But I have to apply that same thought to her. She should "Know Me".
I understand that by being a man I have to bear the burden of doing "more".
Things from my POV at this point are pretty even.
Yes she should know you too.
Forest I have to say from the description of your wife by you, it sounds to me like there is some depression going on ...the way she's painted here, she barely seems to have an interest in life, she's lackluster, self contained, a shadow.
Depressed people are totally narcissistic, focused only on themselves, they can't focus on anyone else, they can barely get up in the morning let alone focus on anyone else's needs. They're so deeply caught in their own pain. Depression is anger turned inward and ulimately is a disorder based in severe lack of self love.
Forest you are not required to "do more", because you're the man. Perhaps right now you are simply because marriages are not always equal. Somedays you give 80% and other days she does.
Marriage is a partnership. We both bring things to the table that the other cannot. The perception that your sex obligates you to do more is not entirely accurate. Who told you it is so?
Forest , you need affirmation too, if only you give it to YOURSELF right now. Please believe me, it will help over time.
Remember a change in your behaviour - cannot help but change hers too.
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When should I expect "something" from her?
If she is depressed, it could take some time. Figure a couple weeks to get assessed, 3 weeks to see if the meds are helping, and then three months or so before the world seems a friendlier and pinker place to be. Then the hard stuff starts with figuring out the beliefs she has about herself and her place in this world. The meds will help but they won't do it all...and sadly some have the effect of killing libido.
How much do you and can you love Forest? Enough to love her unconditionally through this. To keep giving without expectation of receiving? To throw her a lifeline and even walk the same path to self healing? What does it mean to you? Because it won't be easy.
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Take away how much "time" is involved on my part. I mean damn.. I am posting and pouring my heart out to try and grasp at "something". I have said everything to her I have said here. She even said to me the other night that I see you posting on DB.com. She knows my user name.. she can google it up.
Forest your pain and distress comes through loudly to me. I wish I could help you relieve it.
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There has to be a win-fall somewhere.
"Oh Forest I'm so sorry. I can see why you're hugely disappointed. I hope you don't use the phrase "get some" with her?"
The words in "" came from her.. and her thoughts on what I want.
I see. Wow! Do you know what that tells me Forest? It's not about you. It's about her. It's about how she views herself. She believes her only value to you lies in the sexual.
Do you know how I know? About four months ago, I was in so much emotional pain I had an R talk with my H. In it I said to him, " What was I to you anyway? Just a f*ck toy?" He said " You think so little of me!" I said, " No, I think that you think so little of ME!"
Do you see a parallel?
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BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
"Marriage is a partnership. We both bring things to the table that the other cannot." That's teamwork! Partnership has more to do with "equality" and "independence" - and I don't think this is what marriage is abouti,i,e, being an "equal partner" - you simply are "unequal", so deal with it, play your part.
"If she is depressed, it could take some time. Figure a couple weeks to get assessed, 3 weeks to see if the meds are helping, .." I'd get to the "code" first. An then there are ways to take care of the physical or the chemical side other than those "meds".
"Marriage is a partnership. We both bring things to the table that the other cannot." That's teamwork! Partnership has more to do with "equality" and "independence" - and I don't think this is what marriage is abouti,i,e, being an "equal partner" - you simply are "unequal", so deal with it, play your part.
Ok, you define it as teamwork. Works for me! We are interdependant but yet very individual within a marriage, IMO.
"If she is depressed, it could take some time. Figure a couple weeks to get assessed, 3 weeks to see if the meds are helping, .." I'd get to the "code" first. An then there are ways to take care of the physical or the chemical side other than those "meds". The typical path is as I described in general. Yes there are alternative methods...see the work of Dr. Amen.
BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
Dang I want an edit button! I forgot to color my response in the second half!
BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
"You can have the same situation the same words, and four people are going to have four different reactions depending on the damage or programming they received as children."
So what you are saying is that "someone" needs to "see" the hurt.. and respond to it? I clearly could have just let my post stand.. and you may not have ever posted again. Where would that leave us?
"Well lead time is good Forest, you know we women are like electric stoves in our responses, not a gas flame...there is no instant on."
But.. I have to be "instant on". And I have to maintain that "heat" for a long time. How can you expect me to be "instant" while you warm up? This seems quite unfair. And I suspect it leads to my thought that I need to be twice as good.
Her LL is now Time. It was Gifts. Or maybe a combination of "Giving Time". Again.. this is confusing to a Physical LL person. I need to "see" action. I am still waiting.
I like your idea.. and I have done some things that would fall into that category. I think the reason that they failed was most likely my "mindset". I am having a really hard time this time. Simply because I told myself if I was ever here again.. I would walk. Right now.. I am questioning if "this" is worth it.
"If it isn't working do something else until you find what does."
What would work for me is if she did something.. anything.. that even showed me she cared. It would have to be an action. This is my 4-5th time around with this. I am still waiting. I know that is not the smart thing to do. But.. the next "different" thing I am gonna do.. is call her bluff.
"What's the alcohol for Forest? Is it to let your walls down so you can feel or is it to numb out? If it's to numb out is it to numb the pain of disappointment or neglect? Think really hard on this."
Based on your question.. I have to say it is to feel. But to me that implies that I use it to "numb". Either way I still think that I understand where she is coming from. I still think she has no idea where I am coming from. If I made choices while drinking.. I would not be posting "here".
"Forest I have to say from the description of your wife by you, it sounds to me like there is some depression going on ...the way she's painted here, she barely seems to have an interest in life, she's lackluster, self contained, a shadow."
But you are reading what I am saying.
What I "see".
I don't know that she is a "shadow" or depressed.
She is just clearly not the person I married.
She has become someone I do not really even like.
The sad part about that is that most likely I am the one that had a hand in making her that.
I have not "seen" the person I married.. in I don't know how long. I feel I have given an honest shot at it. But.. I "see" nothing. I mean.. she told me to take the money and run. For the 4-5th time.
"Because it won't be easy."
None of this has been "easy". From my point of view it has been easy on her.. because she has had her way. I have left her alone. I have changed my ways. I have stood up.
When does it become her turn?
When does she make a post on DB.com.. looking for answers?
"Do you know how I know? About four months ago, I was in so much emotional pain I had an R talk with my H. In it I said to him, " What was I to you anyway? Just a f*ck toy?" He said " You think so little of me!" I said, " No, I think that you think so little of ME!"
Let me be clear.. I don't think lightly about my f*ck toy. I don't want anyone else messing with it. It is the most important thing in my life. I went to the store.. I picked out the best one I could find. I researched it on the internet and it was the best one. The action of you being my "toy" is a true show of love. I know that sounds harsh.. but I just can't show you any other way. You think less of me for looking at you that way. You can't "see" the value.
How is it any different than you telling me that I need to "wait for the oven"?
You defined your "value" on what you thought he wanted from you.
I would say.. you assumed to much.
Based on your comment above I will assume that your comments were not well received.
I won't tell you how many times I have heard the same thing from her.
"Do you see a parallel?"
Yes.
Relax Eat Think Act normal React.. Smartly. Do something different. Emulate. Do Work.
->My wife walked away with thinking that the C said "Forrest needs to change". Did he actually say this or did she just think it? If so what did he say you need to change?
->To a point he is correct. He or she? If there's any truth in it why not just happily agree and do your part? Then after you've made the "change" ask for your turn.
Perhaps the only reason she agreed to go was to fault you? I remember when I got my W to go to MC she kept bit*hing all the way until maybe the 10th session when the counselor called her bluff and pointed a big finger back at her and she walked out in a huff. So I think there's no use of MC unless BOTH are committed from the start to do whatever it takes. If its merely a finger pointing session or a one sided attack its unlikely to produce results even after 10 sessions.
"You can have the same situation the same words, and four people are going to have four different reactions depending on the damage or programming they received as children."
So what you are saying is that "someone" needs to "see" the hurt.. and respond to it? I clearly could have just let my post stand.. and you may not have ever posted again. Where would that leave us?
No, what I am saying is that depending on who you are your PERCEPTION of events/words/actions is different. The PERCEPTION needs to be confronted with a reality/truth check.
"Well lead time is good Forest, you know we women are like electric stoves in our responses, not a gas flame...there is no instant on."
But.. I have to be "instant on". And I have to maintain that "heat" for a long time. How can you expect me to be "instant" while you warm up? This seems quite unfair. And I suspect it leads to my thought that I need to be twice as good.
Forest, now you want to argue what I suggested? All I'm saying is take sex differences into consideration it's the way we women are "built". It may be unfair, but it is what it is.
I personally expect nothing of you Forest. If you let me as your beloved wife know early in the day by flirting with me, being suggestive, letting me know that you want to make love with me...it gets my mind going in the proper direction. That's all I'm saying dude. The brain is the primary sex organ. Forest you do not have to be twice as good and exactly what do you mean by the word good? Competant, considerate, sensitive, performance...etc.?
Her LL is now Time. It was Gifts. Or maybe a combination of "Giving Time". Again.. this is confusing to a Physical LL person. I need to "see" action. I am still waiting.
So you have discussed it. Your primary and secondary languages, and dialects thereof? Good. I understand you want change and reasonably so, IMHO. I wonder...is there something else going on...hormonal, fear of pregnancy, discomfort etc?
I like your idea.. and I have done some things that would fall into that category. I think the reason that they failed was most likely my "mindset". I am having a really hard time this time. Simply because I told myself if I was ever here again.. I would walk. Right now.. I am questioning if "this" is worth it.
I understand. That's a decision only you can make.
"If it isn't working do something else until you find what does."
What would work for me is if she did something.. anything.. that even showed me she cared. It would have to be an action. This is my 4-5th time around with this. I am still waiting. I know that is not the smart thing to do. But.. the next "different" thing I am gonna do.. is call her bluff.
Can you recall any small actions she has done to show you she does care? Sometimes we miss or don't recognise the little things. I know I have missed many of those acts of caring with my H.
"What's the alcohol for Forest? Is it to let your walls down so you can feel or is it to numb out? If it's to numb out is it to numb the pain of disappointment or neglect? Think really hard on this."
Based on your question.. I have to say it is to feel. But to me that implies that I use it to "numb". Either way I still think that I understand where she is coming from. I still think she has no idea where I am coming from. If I made choices while drinking.. I would not be posting "here".
Ok, so you drink to lower your inhibitions , bring down the walls. She may not know where you're coming from, not many mind read with great accuracy. Perhaps that can be addressed in counselling in a neutral environment?
"Forest I have to say from the description of your wife by you, it sounds to me like there is some depression going on ...the way she's painted here, she barely seems to have an interest in life, she's lackluster, self contained, a shadow."
But you are reading what I am saying.
What I "see".
I don't know that she is a "shadow" or depressed.
She is just clearly not the person I married.
She has become someone I do not really even like.
The sad part about that is that most likely I am the one that had a hand in making her that.
Not necessarily Forest. More than likely a lot of old crap in her head is defining who she thinks she OUGHT to be, including the opinions you have of her, with those being the least of it.
I have not "seen" the person I married.. in I don't know how long. I feel I have given an honest shot at it. But.. I "see" nothing. I mean.. she told me to take the money and run. For the 4-5th time.
Forest, as someone that was once clinically depressed, it sure as heck sounds like your wife is. She's got self esteem issues big time going on, in my non professional and humble opinion.
"Because it won't be easy."
None of this has been "easy". From my point of view it has been easy on her.. because she has had her way. I have left her alone. I have changed my ways. I have stood up.
When does it become her turn?
I would genuinely like to make a recommendation for you both, but I cannot. Although if you look at a past post I made to MsRae you will find search terms that will guide you to a valuable resource. You will have to poke around a fair bit. I suggest you take the time.
I will say, it will be her turn when SHE defines who she is, when she's emotionally healthy and has addressed all the wounds that are just wearing bandaids, and YOU with her.
When does she make a post on DB.com.. looking for answers?
"Do you know how I know? About four months ago, I was in so much emotional pain I had an R talk with my H. In it I said to him, " What was I to you anyway? Just a f*ck toy?" He said " You think so little of me!" I said, " No, I think that you think so little of ME!"
Let me be clear.. I don't think lightly about my f*ck toy. I don't want anyone else messing with it. It is the most important thing in my life. I went to the store.. I picked out the best one I could find. I researched it on the internet and it was the best one. The action of you being my "toy" is a true show of love. I know that sounds harsh.. but I just can't show you any other way. You think less of me for looking at you that way. You can't "see" the value.
Forest, you're making this about you and very personally when I stated that THIS ISN"T ABOUT YOU! It's about how she views herself. If she only sees her value as sexual, she feels DEVALUED as a person! Feeling that your only value is sexual means that you could be ANY woman with a functional reproductive system. It means she could wear a paper bag on her head and it wouldn't matter. It means she's a thing - an object.
Yes I understand that you value your "toy", but if that's all you value about a woman, is means the rest of what she is, is devalued.
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The action of you being my "toy" is a true show of love.
Yes I understand that to men this is often true. You equate sex with love, however we also know you can split/box off the sex and it can be just sex ...a booty call.
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I know that sounds harsh.. but I just can't show you any other way.
There are many ways to show us you love us. Making love,is the pinnacle when we are in harmony, and it is deep and soul nourishing.
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You think less of me for looking at you that way. You can't "see" the value.
No, we like to know we are desired and desirable. We think less of you if that's the ONLY way you look at us.
How is it any different than you telling me that I need to "wait for the oven"?
Forest, if you want to bake bread that sucker needs preheating. That's all.
You defined your "value" on what you thought he wanted from you.
Forest I defined his evaluation on me as only being sexual, because the rest of what I had to bring to the table I felt/believed didn't matter one bit. Only my reproductive acts mattered and the children borne from them.
I would say.. you assumed to much. Too much or not enough?
Based on your comment above I will assume that your comments were not well received.
As I wrote, he took it as an indictment of his character. When it was really about my pain and distress in being so easily dismissed and discounted.
I won't tell you how many times I have heard the same thing from her.
"Do you see a parallel?"
Yes.
BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
