But I have already seen that when faced with proof, he can be influenced to believe something else, and this was even before we started having problems in our M.
Quote:
Right now, I have started working on reversing his mindset, am planting seeds, by appealing to his "idealistic" side. I do see it is starting to work, to be honest.
I understand where you're coming from - but you are still trying to manipulate an outcome.
Angel - this is his journey - you need to respect him enough to let him take it. Who are you to "plant seeds" to get the outcome you want? Unless he figures this stuff out himself - he's never going to make it out of the tunnel. You cannot do it for him. Trying to, will only lenghthen his process and rob you of your own.
Please try to detach - you could try by "planting seeds" about detachment in your own mind - because after all, this journey is all about learning how to change yourself and your reactions. the ones that got you here in the first place ... ya know??
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Please take to heart what Walking has pointed out--as long as you're trying to influence your H's thinking, you're continuing to try to control and manipulate him (and he WILL notice and resent it at some level). At the same time, you're not doing the work on yourself which would make it possible to have a healthy relationship with anyone that DOESN'T rely on manipulation, co-dependence, etc.
About the victim mentality, you might be interested to read an article by Lynne Forrest, "The 3 Faces of the Victim," available on the net. Essentially, the MLCer acts like a victim (and a bully, and a helper to the OW/others) because he has been victimized as a child, but has never dealt with--or, often, acknowledged--that victimization. He is not acting as the victim just to get what he wants from you or the OW (though that might be a welcome benefit) but because at a deep level his instincts are screaming at him that he is being mistreated or taken advantage of or not getting what he deserves.
If he came back to the M at this point, it would not work out. He would soon feel that he'd been unfairly forced to give up the OW, or that it was unfair that he was the only person whose happiness did not matter, or that he was being victimized in some other way (which would justify him leaving/finding another OW, etc). Until he deals with the childhood baggage which left him feeling like a victim in the first place, he will not be capable of making adult decisions. As long as he's thinking with his emotions and clinging to the drama of how pain-filled and victimized he is, nothing you say or do will change this reality.
Meanwhile, do you feel like a victim of his actions, decisions, coldness, rejection, etc.? If so, you need to do the same work that he does of learning to get off the victim triangle.
You're doing well, Angel, at a time when everything seems to be trying to throw you off balance. I'd just like you to consider whether you'd like to continue to spend your energy as you have been, or whether a new approach might serve you better.
Cyrena, thank you for the suggestion about the Forrest article. I read through it and realize that I am a starting entry rescuer and my H is either a victim or persecutor. I had an anxiety attack last night, and was the victim for a while, rapidly, the balance swung and now I am back to rescuer while my H is again the victim. He started acting this morning like the sky was falling. I ended up being the one to call and reassure him that everything will be OK. I ned to get out of that triangle.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
Just thinking here.... sometimes we all don't want to get off the triangle due to what we see as secondary gains. Being the victim obviously has the most to gain in terms of sympathy, that is why maybe I try to be one as well. also, it is a rest from needing to be the rescuer.
To get out of this I have to stop being the rescuer. My rescue instincts are again on high at this point. I have to be careful though that I don't swing on to the other side and become a persecutor just because I can't rescue.... I see now why I have to get off the triangle. Next time I do something or want to do or say something I will ask myself if it si being a victim, persecutor or rescuer. I am wondering though if all actions can be classified into one of these, for fear that getting off the triangle will end up in a paralysis....
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
I think you've done very well to recognize how various of your reactions can be categorized as rescuing, claiming victimization or persecuting. As for your final question, it's only the actions which perpetuate keeping in one of these positions that keep you in the triangle; getting off the triangle does not actually result in paralysis, but in feelings of relief and freedom.
Getting off the triangle could be equated with achieving detachment or with with ending co-dependence, since you have gained control of your fears and emotions. Don't worry, you'll get there in the end--for now, I think it's good to ask yourself whether you're trying to get certain results from acting from one of the positions, and whether you really need those "secondary gains."
Hi all, thank you so much for all the encouraging posts. I did not have time to check as both me and D12 had some crisis in the past two days.
On Monday, H arrived from vacation and ws in a bad mood. I kept away, but by evening, was so high strung I ended up having a panic attack. I did not talk too much with him on why and told him it will pass, but he was very concerned,
next day, H called me throughout the day, and finally was convinced that I was feeling more stable. By the time he came home, he was cheerful, in a rush to pack for his two week trip, but chatty and seemingly happy, did last minute groceries, took out garbage, cooked for D12, and did all our bills. I felt comfortable, and helped him pack, all the while with light convo.
At bedtime, D12 comes over and asks me to sleep with her. She then started crying, then blurted that she was so worried for mommy and daddy. She was afraid that "mommy is going to lose it, go crazy" because of the problems. She also said that our family did not feel like one anymore as we did not do things together (we do, but I think she sees the one sided interaction)
I felt my stomach sinking. D12 has a history of anxiety, manifested by not eating. It took 6 mos. of therapy last episode to get over it, where she became so painfully thin, and she was just 7 years old then. Since yesterday, I noticed that D12 has not been eating well again, and I had the feeling that she was headed for this.
I called in my H, told him about the situation. Although I felt like screaming at him, all I told him was to reassure her if he could, and that he is hurting her. I felt so bad for D12 that I could not even cry, and for a moment felt like just hitting H.
They talked, and afterwards he told me that he explained to her that sometimes, in a persons life, a crisis comes up where they beocme confused and lost, and thats where he is now. He tried to explain his MLC to her, I guess. he also tried to reassure her, saying that he was planning family trips and outings.
H then had to leave early this AM. He told me that he will make sure to contact us as much as he could, and asked me to be strong for our daughter.
When D12 woke up, she was still trembly and fearful. It took all my control not to cry, and I decided to just say anything at this point, out of desperation, to comfort her. I said that she should not worry, we were not heading for a D, and that we will try to work on our M. It seemed to work this time for D as she started slowly coming around, and by lunchtime, was eating a little.
H called during a stopover, and told him about my reassurances to D12 and he actually agreed. He said to just keep things as stable as possible till he arrives, and that we'll just deal with other problems later.
He called 4x total during his stopover, twice to just let me know how the lounge was like, and how he plane's business class (he got upgraded) was like. He also talked once to D12 to chat lightly. I felt some warmth emanating from the conversations, a touch of concern and caring. He also admonished me to take care of myself.
So right now, I feel like I am in a kind of twilight zone. Everything is so surreal, unnatural. I don't even know how I feel anymore. My world is literally falling apart but the pieces seem to be moving and gathering life of its own. Where it is headed, I do not know.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
The worst thing about marriage troubles is watching the effect they have on our children. Nevertheless, all marriages have to go through them if they are to evolve into healthy ones after the initial years of being-in-love have come to their inevitable end.
You wonder where this will end--try to reassure yourself that it will end in the best possible place: you will be confident, able to deal with any crisis, you will know your deepest needs and how to satisfy them, you will be an excellent communicator, and you will have learned compassion and understanding. Moreover, the better role model your daughter sees you becoming, the more she will follow. Then try to reject any "cheeseless tunnels" which take your energy in less useful directions.
Angel, this time is so difficult, both mentally and physically. For your sake and your daughter's, be kind to yourself and remember that you are undertaking a long journey: try not to expect to much from yourself too soon.
Does your D have a therapist or school counsellor she could talk to for some outside help? I think it might benefit her to be able to express her concerns to someone who is not actually in the situation.
Thank you Cyrena. The pain of knowing my D is hurting is even worse than my own pain.
My only consolation at this point is that H sees it also, and I am sure that at this point he is processing all of these, seeing the ripple effect of his selfish choices. I remember that Lorie once posted that we should remember that our H's are choosing themselves when they do such things as choosing OW, choosing to S or D. They do not see what hurt they are inflicting on others, until it stares at them in the face (maybe not even then, in many of the sitches I have seen).
Can you imagine the scars being left in our daughter's heart by everything that is happening? How she has been stripped of the innocence that still should be hers at this age?
I myself feel defiled, the freshness, the innocence, the idealism stripped from my marriage.
No matter what happens it will never come back again.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
It is so sad to see the innocence lost in this whole mess. My D16 feels that H has chosen OW over her. She feels OW has replaced her. I can see why she feels that way too. He is so distant with his only child and finds plenty of excuses to put on D16 instead of taking responsibility as a parent. Their relationship was so beautiful, and now it is in ruins and H has no clue.
It is selfishness, H isn't choosing OW over anyone, he is choosing himself and his selfish needs. The poor OW doesn't even know that either. My H can't even tell me he doesn't love me, so the OW will never have all of him, and he is just being selfish with his needs and wants, damn be all!
(((Hugs))) and Blessings
Lorie W47 H48 D16 M20 H gone 11/9/10 lives w/OW
When you forgive,you heal. When you let go,you grow. When you cry to God, you surrender. When you love unconditionally, you show others Christ's love.
My H does still value is relationship with D12, and I could see how he prioritizes her. I would say she is the reason why he is still here. With this happening he has been beside himself, calling and texting constantly.
That is why I have been mulling sending him a letter to explain what he is doing to her, and what she needs as far as I know, because I can see that he does not understand it.
I will share the letter I have been composing, and let me know if this is something I should send him, take out some parts, etc:
Dear H, I want us to stop for a moment and think about what our situation right now is doing to our child. Forget our own pain, forget our goals, forget what we want for ourselves.
Focus on the life we created, and what we wanted for her, growing up. How we planned to prepare her for what life hands out, how we envisioned her as an adult. The life put in out hands to nurture, to take care until we can set her free to live her own life, armed with the guidance and teachings that we, as parents, have given her.
Maybe we could start with comparing her with our own childhood, as that is all we have knowledge of.
Imagine yourself at her age. At that time, life was good, all you had to worry about was where you were going to play, where you will meet your cousins. You were surrounded by the love of a big family. Your biggest problems where that Mama and Papa would get mad at you for playing hookey again, not doing your homework. Once in a while you knew that the adult had problems with money, and you left solving that to their own, maybe once in a while it affected you because you could not by what you needed. Of course that was a bummer, but money problems get solved, and you never bothered your head about it.
In essence, it was the same with me. My parents had a different dynamic, and I did have some insecurities, but nothing that upset the feeling of permanence in my life. Our values were firmly entrenched by the Christian way we all lived.
But for both of us, what was the most important thing? Was it school? Friends? Cousins? Pets? Of course not. It was being part of a family. The core family – mom, dad, siblings.
Now, imagine what goes on in D's mind at this point. She used to be so happy, living in a big house, being doted on as an only child by loving parents. True, she does not have much family nearby, but we made up for it in other ways – traveling, family activities together, no expense spared. Suddenly, things change. At first she tells herself “it will pass”. But as time goes by, she feels the changes in her life, and is slowly waking up to the reality of what is happening.
And what is the most important part of her life? It is family. Mom, Dad and herself, together. We play different roles in her life. I am the fun parent, you are disciplinarian. I am the one who takes care of the school needs, you take care of her home needs. She does not even have siblings and cousins in the picture.
And the sad thing is that the most important thing in her life at this point, her family, is cracking. Those are her words.
She observes, listens to us. She feels that we are no longer doing things together as a family. She senses your pulling away, she gets hurt that you are not paying her as much attention as before, she feels and knows that someone else outside the family occupies your mind. She sees my pain, my struggle to be strong, to regain my life. She afraid for me, for my ability to withstand this great stress. Too early in life, she has started taking on the role of the one to understand and make allowances for her parents’ mistakes and weaknesses.
She is losing her innocence at a time when she should first be learning to be idealistic. She is learning to be cynical before learning to be appreciative of the world. She is learning about broken promises before learning about truth and trust. She is starting to lose her belief in love, starting to build defenses around her heart. She has started questioning the meaning of loyalty and commitment. She will soon start having trust issues.
She always has been shy, and afraid of being hurt, as you have seen in her reluctance to make friends in a new school for fear of having to move away from them again. She is afraid of instability as evidenced by her wanting a structured environment. She is not the resilient type, preferring to hide her pain and her true self, not even opening up to us.
She now faces losing all of what she has valued so far in her short life. She has to face the fears she has when she is not yet fully equipped to do so.
Her crisis this week was only the start.
You are not hurting her directly, that is why she was puzzled by your question about hating you. She loves you and that is why she wants to keep the family together. The hurt comes from the situation we are in.
She has started to ask why we don’t do things as a family. She was not satisfied with the response she got, that we will be going on trips together in the near future, because that was not what she needed to hear. She wanted to hear that we will still be all together, not broken up. That is why she was even more disturbed the next day.
Remember though that it is not just at moments like this that she is in pain. It will always be there, and will only come up when her defenses are weak.
You may say that it is best for her to learn from our mistakes, to know what the world is really like, but without a foundation of knowing what is good and right, how will that work out? I she really equipped now to deal with it? She is at that time where her psyche is still fragile. It is hard to even say we will never know unless we try, because once she is damaged, there will be no turning back. And how do we know if the damage will be repairable? Are we equipped to control that damage ourselves? In my opinion, there will be plenty of time later to teach her where we have made mistakes so she will not repeat them them. You have seen how in many children, having too much stress and pain caused them to destroy themselves. Do you want that to happen to your child? We do not play with the lives of our patients, what more with that of our child?
Remember that our daughter only has herself when she grows up. She does not have siblings to rely on, and her cousins are far away. She has to be able to learn to build a strong relationship with her own family. How can she do that when she is scarred and damaged by her own family? When she knows that we did not even try to turn the situation around when we could? When only our own feelings and emotions were considered, and not hers?
I think it is not yet too late, but much of what she will learn will have to depend on our choices and our priorities. Do we choose her, or ourselves? Much as we would like to think that this is just between you and me, it is not.
......
I know this is not DBing but I feel like I cannot leave a stone unturned in protecting my daughter from further hurt. I love her so much, more than anything. But I am so afraid that this will make things worse.
Another option for me is to take this to heart and wait for a time I can talk about it. In the past we have discussed our daughter and he always has agreed that she is the priority. Maybe spoken words would be more gentle, rather than in writing.
As I write these I am in tears. Never in all these months that I have lived through this sitch have I felt so down and depressed. Oh Lord, carry me and my D12, open my H's heart to the Holy Spirit that he may see what he is doing to us!
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
